Who's fault is it ???

[OW]

178 seconds!

[Cat Driver]

GPS plus Map and there you have the perfect combination.

Hell sooner or later map reading gets to be real easy that way.

Cat

[shitdisturber]

Back when I ran a school we would periodically get students who had bought themselves a GPS and wanted to use it for their Nav training. My answer was always the same; "once you've got your license, feel free to use your GPS in conjunction with a map, i'll even teach you how to use it. Until you're licensed, it stays in your bag and you'll learn to do it the hard way."

[just curious]

LT

The reason that there is a requirement for a recommendation for flight tests is that applicants have absolutely no idea as to whether or not they meet the standards for successful completion of a flight test. This is not merely the case at the private or commercial level, but for the currency checks professional pilots undergo every six months to keep flying.

As shown in this case, you were apparantly unaware that you could, dependant on ability, have performed the check flight at 35 hours. This was likely not mentioned to you at the 35 hour mark because at that point in your experience you had not met the standards.

http://www.tc.gc.ca/civilaviation/gener ... l.htm#Test

Admission to Flight Test

In order to be admitted to a flight test required for the issue of a Private Pilot Licence — Aeroplane, the candidate shall present:

1. proof of meeting the medical standards for the Private Pilot Licence,

2. a letter from a qualified flight instructor certifying that:

* the candidate is considered to have reached a sufficient level of competency for the issuance of the Private Pilot Licence,
* the instructor recommends the candidate for the flight test.

3. evidence of having completed

* no less than 35 hours flight time,
* in the case of a candidate for an Alternate Category Licence, no less than 75% of the total flight time required for the licence,
* a pre-flight test evaluation.

Even in the professional world, people do not often in preparation for a ride, review their: company ops manual, special procedures, Canada Air Pilot, SOPs, or the aircraft flight manual.

As a result they incur extra training time to review procedures, changes and policies that they should have known.

During the private and commercial solo practice time, candidates often fail to practice previous lessons, concentrating on what they have just been taught, so that the review for the recommendation ride becomes a long drawn-out session to re-introduce forgotten procedures.

Except in retirement, I doubt that I will ever again do rides except for Multi/ IFR, or contract PPC rides. If I were going to, the recommending instructor would be getting a grilling from me far more severe tha a ride candidate, simply because I hate to tell someone that they failed because they weren't ready for the ride.

Check pilots don't learn much about candidates during a ride. But they sure learn a lot about your instructors. When you flunk a ride and I think it's due to your training, your instructor's boss, and Transport are made aware of it. This impacts their ability to earn a living. This may make it appear to you that an instructor is trying to leach a few more hours from you. The reality is that they are trying to make sure they rcommend a qualified candidate so they can keep their instructor category and ther job.

[Shiny Side Up]

I just read an article in Flying magazine, where an instructor says to a student "You're not qualified to judge your own performance." 'Nuff said. When it comes to the reccomend for a flight test few students realize its not just their ass in the sling.

[LT]

When it comes to the reccomend for a flight test few students realize its not just their ass in the sling.

If instructor A can train a student in 45 hours, why can't Instructor B??

I'm against the recommend.. If you get rid of it, you can't blame the instructor for sucking anymore, and he can't squeeze you for hours..
Win-Win situation..

And if the DFTE is too scared to go and do his job, he should quit being a DFTE, other people are willing to make $250/hr...

[Cat Driver]

LT :

You forgot to add, except when it is training air cadets.

[shitdisturber]

When it comes to the reccomend for a flight test few students realize its not just their ass in the sling.

If instructor A can train a student in 45 hours, why can't Instructor B??

I'm against the recommend.. If you get rid of it, you can't blame the instructor for sucking anymore, and he can't squeeze you for hours..
Win-Win situation..

And if the DFTE is too scared to go and do his job, he should quit being a DFTE, other people are willing to make $250/hr...

Maybe instructor A just has a better student. I've sent students for their rides at less than 45 hours and never worried about the result, since I knew they were going to kick ass. Conversely, i've sent students at considerably more than 45 hours and sweated it out, hoping they were going to have a good day and keep their nerves under control.

[Shiny Side Up]

I'm against the recommend.. If you get rid of it, you can't blame the instructor for sucking anymore, and he can't squeeze you for hours..
Win-Win situation..

So then we'd have students taking flight tests whenever they felt like it, and what would stop them from blaming the instructors? I could see those pre test briefings - My instructor didn't tell me that, My instructor didn't tell me that, My instructor didn't tell me that, My instructor didn't tell me that...

Well looks like you fail.

Damn instructor why didn't he tell me! Where's my lawyer...

[shitdisturber]

I'm against the recommend.. If you get rid of it, you can't blame the instructor for sucking anymore, and he can't squeeze you for hours..
Win-Win situation..

So then we'd have students taking flight tests whenever they felt like it, and what would stop them from blaming the instructors? I could see those pre test briefings - My instructor didn't tell me that, My instructor didn't tell me that, My instructor didn't tell me that, My instructor didn't tell me that...

Well looks like you fail.

Damn instructor why didn't he tell me! Where's my lawyer...

I remember taking a flight test de-brief for an instructor who wasn't available when his student landed. The DFTE told me; "talk to (name omitted to protect the goofy bastard) if i heard, my instructor didn't tell me that one more time I was going to come across the table at the candidate."
Said DFTE wasn't fooled for a minute; knew damn well that the goofy bastard had indeed told the student that, it's just sooo much easier to blame someone else for our failings.

[ZLIN 142C]

Hey, here's an idea - instead of blaming someone else because you suck and failed your flight test, how about putting in the time and effort to become competent so that you DON'T suck and don't have to waste time and energy making pathetic excuses?

What the hell is wrong with people?

(I'm not talking about anyone in particular here, by the way....)

[Nordo]

If instructor A can train a student in 45 hours, why can't Instructor B??

Instructor A is patient, attentive, resourceful, and pays special attention to the students ability to grasp new information and concepts, then uses that information to help the student learn new ideas and build on their old skills. Instructor A gives good briefings on the ground and doesn’t waste the students time in the air, and always makes the student walk away feeling accomplished, even after a day of really shitty landings. After the student is done his lesson and leaves the airport, instructor A looks over the next few exercises and quietly ponders how he is going to approach the next lesson with the student (because Instructor A realized along time ago that every student learns differently). Then he makes a few notes in the PTR about the progression of his student and what they are going to work on next, this way he wont forget where they left off (Instructor A is very busy and seems to be getting more and more students).

Instructor B is on the computer revising his resume for CMA while his 30 hr student is waiting in the plane because his walk-around is complete and Instructor B told him he would meet him out at the plane.

Bad flight instructors have nothing to do with the recommend. The recommend is necessary no matter what you believe, and regardless of your views TC is never going to dismiss it.

[Cat Driver]

Transport Canada has a 45 hour requirement for the PPL.

Why can't a pilot ask for a flight test at that point in time?

The pilot must pay for the test, and it just may save a pile of money rather than get reamed by a flight school just padding time to make money.

The pass or fail should determine the students ability, not some poorly thought out recommend policy.

.

[ZLIN 142C]

Some people put way too much emphasis on how many hours they take to solo or pass their flight test. These numbers are only guidelines and minimums, and really don't mean anything concrete. The important thing is that the student is ready, not that he has the TC approved minimum number of hours. People who whine that they didn't solo at ten or pass their flight test at forty-five are missing the point. The skills are either there or they aren't. If you need more time to get your skill level up to flight test standards, so be it. The best judge of that is not the student, as he/she has no idea what the standards really are. The instructor should make that call, hence the recommend. That's as it should be, especially since the instructor is putting his/her reputation on the line by allowing the student to take the test. The student's skill level is at least fifty percent the product of the instructor's teaching methods.

[Nordo]

The pilot must pay for the test, and it just may save a pile of money rather than get reamed by a flight school just padding time to make money.

Its the fault of the flight school who is screwing the student that is Fuc#ng things up, not the 'Poorly thought out recomend policy,' (as you put it). Alot of times it is not the system that is FUBAR....rather the body that it governs.

[Cat Driver]

And I earn my living unteaching pilots who are borderline incompetant after being screened by the system.

So what is the solution?

Maybe we need more 19 year olds brained washed in the learning factors using voo doo appraisal of some adult businessmans mental condition before the flight?

Yeh, human factors is the answer.

[Shiny Side Up]

Transport Canada has a 45 hour requirement for the PPL.

Why can't a pilot ask for a flight test at that point in time?

The pilot must pay for the test, and it just may save a pile of money rather than get reamed by a flight school just padding time to make money.

The pass or fail should determine the students ability, not some poorly thought out recommend policy.

.

For shame CD you of all people should know that how many hours a person has has nothing to do with the level of skill they can demonstrate. But all the blame here is on how good (or not good) the instructor is. Lets look at the student.

Student A books regularly, does their reading, makes sure he has dedicated the time to do his flight training.

Student B Starts his training, goes on vacation for five months, returns to it, during which he is working so can only book on tuesdays with odd numbers. Because of their scedule ground school is taken haphazardly, and reading not always accomplished before the flight.

A and B both reach 45 hours - which one can demonstrate flight test performance?

And that's not the only differences between them!

The reccomend is a method for keeping instructors in line. So the next time you really think some poor (and I mean that in the financial sense) instructor in the right seat is screwing you out of money by hosing you out of flight hours if you really have to go somewhere else to get a reccomend! I mean there's probably enough poor class 4s out there that you might be able to badger one of them into giving it to you because he doesn't want to re-do his flight test. But when you get that piece of paper blame yourself when you fail! Maybe if a student doesn't want to get a reccomend there should be a waiver that they fill out which states: I feel I am ready for my flight test, I alleviate any blame from the part of my instructor in this matter. Then by all means - fill your boots! Maybe we should get rid of the instructor rating entirely! It seems that there are enough people around here who feel they could do the job better, faster and cheaper themselves! After all that whole 30hr instructor rating thing just must be a money grab by a bunch of inept schools.

Why is it that so many people are so against spending a few extra hours flight training?! What's wrong with just being sure that you're going to pass? I mean you've spent this much money you've come this far, why not get the most out of it? Why do so many people just want the bare minimum out of their flight training? Its your safety at stake! People don't go to the mechanic and say I'd like the cheapest set of brakepads you got. You don't go to a bargain store to buy a parachute. Why skimp on this? Contrary to popular belief 99% of schools are not hosing their customers. Get over yourself. It just may be that you as a student aren't as hot as you thought you were. But hey, as an instructor I know that if you're willing to spend that extra bit of time on it, we can overcome your deficiencies.

[Nordo]

Cat - Your part of the system (like it or not) if you want out there is a door or a balistic parachute somewhere. I dont know most of the people on this forum but im sure that alot of them are great pilots, and they all emersed from the same place. I learned the 7 learning factors....and I added a few of my own. Am I a 19 yr old voodoo child?? Its a shame that people cant think for themselfs, above and beyond what TC says is gosple, but that is what you are for. And hey the good part of it is that you have a job because of it.

[Shiny Side Up]

Some people put way too much emphasis on how many hours they take to solo or pass their flight test. These numbers are only guidelines and minimums, and really don't' mean anything concrete. The important thing is that the student is ready, not that he has the TC approved minimum number of hours. People who whine that they didn't solo at ten or pass their flight test at forty-five are missing the point. The skills are either there or they aren't. If you need more time to get your skill level up to flight test standards, so be it. The best judge of that is not the student, as he/she has no idea what the standards really are. The instructor should make that call, hence the recommend. That's as it should be, especially since the instructor is putting his/her reputation on the line by allowing the student to take the test. The student's skill level is at least fifty percent the product of the instructor's teaching methods.

What he said.

[Cat Driver]

Shiny side and Nordo :

I am trying to be objective and discuss generalities, lets start with the seven learning factors that are in the TC bible, and TC demands that you embrace and use.

My wife has a masters in education and studied in Simon Farzer and was offered to do her doctorate with Dr. Michaelus of Berkley in California whilst she was auditing a course he was giving.....

She did not finish her Doctorate due to her work load as a school principal.

My wife never heard of the seven learning factors in the TC instructors flight guide. She contacted several of her profs. in Simon Frazer and also her mentor in Berkley, guess what? They never heard of them either.

She has also brought up this issue with many of her colleauges in education, guess what? they never heard of them either.

So much for that.

Nordo, yeh, I'm still part of the system but why would I get out when there is such a large group of poorly trained pilots out there who are willing to pay me my fee to Re-teach them how to fly?

.

[Pugster]

Gotta agree with you Cat;

I've done a degree in Psychology and a lot of that was focused on learning. I can't say I've ever read any research in the area that came up with 7 Deadly Learning Factors.

That being said, I think transport probably just came up with the learning factors to introduce instructors to some basics of how people learn, and some factors that can influence the success of learning. Some instructors are just kids out of high school, and hardly know how to learn themselves let alone how others learn.

What I want to know is this; how come as instructors we are held responsible for the learning outcome of grown adults? I can swear in the better part of 8 years of post-secondary that I was always held responsible for my own performance. I'm OK with the flight test recommend, cause without some sort of pre-assessment the student isn't going to have a clue as to their own performance...if you ask even your worst students how they rate their flying, I'm guessing most will overestimate their own ability.

But a required recommend for the written exam? What the hell happened to taking personal responsibility to ensure that you've studied sufficiently to do well? We need to place more responsibility on the student for the progress of his or her training - how else are we going to teach them to be responsible when they get their license and don't have an instructor to hold their hand?

I don't worry about those students I have recommended that have taken an active role in their training and have assessed their own skills to determine when they are flight test ready. For those, the recommend is what it should be - a formality. The students that make me lose sleep are those for whom the recommend is a way of assuring that the student possesses the skills necessary to pass the exam...but not the "smarts" to realize that they have BARELY reached an acceptable level of proficiency.

Whoops...I just realize I'm ranting.

Pugster

[Cat Driver]

Pugster :

O.K. maybe I am just to simplistic and not able to grasp some ideas, however if you even suggest to TC that " their " vision of learning factors are not necessarily the end all and be all of teaching someone to fly an airplane...they will not pass you on the test, by the way how come there are no learning factors in driver training ( or are there? )

Anyhow my problem with TC flight training is you must regurgitate word for word what they deem to be the only way to teach.

Fortunately I have been at long enough to have developed a straight foward method of teaching people to manilupate the controls on flying machines and make it go where they want it to go....that after all is the bottom line.

But hey, maybe I shouldn't be allowed to teach at all....in fact there is one TC inspector that goes out of his way to prevent me from doing just that, the last time he cost me fifty hours of float plane training...he of course is so abysmaly stupid I doubt if he would be able to teach someone to ty their shoe laces.

But I will continue to teach anyone willing to pay me and TC can go to hell as far as my renewing my Class II goes..

.

[Nordo]

Nordo, yeh, I'm still part of the system but why would I get out when there is such a large group of poorly trained pilots out there who are willing to pay me my fee to Re-teach them how to fly?

That was exactly my point....you should embrace this system of governing rules because it employs you.

Also...just because some guy with a $100,000 education and a job dosn't know somthing that his friend couldnt teach him, dosnt mean it isnt a good thing. Education is primarily based on education large numbers while flight training is based on one to one training, maybe that is why no one in the education system has heard of them before, but I dont know. I found them to be quite helpful at first. The JAR embraces the same type system in their sylibus....maybe its European??? Is Simon Fraser from Europe??

I like your objectiveness.

[Pugster]

.;

Sounds to me like Transport is really missing the boat on that one (your case)...

I'm sure you've covered this one before, but how are they nailing you for 50 hours of float training? I thought that anyone with even just 50 hours on floats could give ratings...you probably log that in a month in the Cat! It really sounds like classic bueracratic (sp?) BS to me.

Stick it to the man, Cat...Stick it to the man.

Pugster.

[Cat Driver]

Nordo :

Simon Fraser is a university in Vancoucer.

Yes these so called learning factors are in use in many areas of flight training around the world.

I have no problem with anyone believing in any factor that seems to help them teach. What bugs me is the intransience of most TC flight training Inspectors when it comes to questioning the origin or validity of these factors, the ones that I have delt with out here in the rain forest are adamant that only their methods will be accepted and to question or suggest anything out side of their rigid tunnel vision is worse than suggesting you want to sodomize their dog.

Anyhow I have decided that due to the fact they would not allow me to own a FTU, even though I was abiding by and complying with all the rules. Now I will do whatever I need to to make a buck. I couldn't care less about their rules nor their opinion. Abiding by the rules got me nowhere so I will become an outlaw if need be.

Hell, in Canada child molesters are turned loose to wander around free, drug dealers operate openly and freely and anyone who wants to steal what is yours are free to do so with little if any punishment....so f.ck TC let them fine me, take my license or anything they wish I could care less. One thing for sure I would cut my throat before I would pay those unprincipled scum a penny.

Hey troops ,, How's that for a rant? Wave

One lesson that I have learned, to really get ahead in aviation when dealing with TC dishonesty is the best policy that much I have learned from them...

.