Training slots in the lower mainland.

Otter envy · Post by **Otter envy** » Fri Feb 23, 2007 8:59 am

Anyone else noticed that getting a training slot in the LM has been like peeling the bark off an oak tree? To add to that, now terminal has stopped giving out training slots on the weekend.
Call me crazy but I'm starting to notice the changes in the airspace already.

avmg · Post by **avmg** » Fri Feb 23, 2007 9:55 am

I tried getting training slots this morning. I was told "no IFR training today, due to staff shortages, etc." .. and the usual reasons. And it's not even summer yet! NavCanada needs to come up with a solution soon, this will start affecting the training business.

Otter envy · Post by **Otter envy** » Fri Feb 23, 2007 11:02 am

I know what you are going though, I get my students to call every mourning. I also call and its the same song and dance every day...

"sorry, nothing untill 02:00 zulu." which is around when the freezing level decends to about ground level. Crazy how that happens every day.

And another thing, I think one school, that will remain nameless is calling up in the mourning and booking all of the slots from 9 in the mourning to 3 in the afternoon. Is there a rule against group bookings?

Oe

Oleo 4 · Post by **Oleo 4** » Fri Feb 23, 2007 6:26 pm

Then create more work for them by flying vfr and simulating all approaches, you may get bumped off occasionally but if their are no other training slots then avoid peak arrival times and you'll get what you want.

It does seem that some school is calling up at 0730 and booking all of them, I had people call at 0740 and they were told the slots are gone already for the day

ScudRunner · Post by **ScudRunner** » Fri Feb 23, 2007 10:32 pm

Having just recently renewed my IFR out there I would get up at 730 and call and book my time and never once was denied. I doubt a certain school is booking them all and if you have trained with the one in wich I think you are refering to you would understand that this isnt the case, its the students job to book the slot time.

TC Guy · Post by **TC Guy** » Sat Feb 24, 2007 2:39 am

I would suggest that you keep track of your issues. I will try and find you a contact number with Nav Can so you can address your issues.

If there are problems, you MUST address them... using the proper forum. Let the people that can make the difference know your needs.

-Guy

patter · Post by **patter** » Sat Feb 24, 2007 11:12 am

File a CADOR. And there is an open Aeronautical Study. In it Nav Canada stated that they would increase or meet the utilization that the airspace requires. Levels of service should not be decreased. The CADOR lets several agencies become aware simultaneously that there is a decrease in service.

Justwannafly · Post by **Justwannafly** » Mon Feb 26, 2007 3:51 pm

. wrote:Having just recently renewed my IFR out there I would get up at 730 and call and book my time and never once was denied. I doubt a certain school is booking them all and if you have trained with the one in wich I think you are refering to you would understand that this isnt the case, its the students job to book the slot time.

when was that?...cause for the last month people have been calling at 7:29 & being told already full...There are times when only a few people at the school get a slot...& I'm talk'n about a school that does mainly IFR

husky · Post by **husky** » Mon Feb 26, 2007 4:21 pm

This is not true. I have been doing my ifr for the last month and when I was ABLE to drag my butt out of bed on time to call, I never have a problem getting a slot. When I sleep in a little and remember to call at 8am, then there's nothing left.

There have, however, been a few days where terminal was only taking slots for yxx, nothing in yyj or ycd, which will jam things up pretty fast.

Justwannafly · Post by **Justwannafly** » Mon Feb 26, 2007 9:39 pm

husky wrote:This is not true. I have been doing my ifr for the last month and when I was ABLE to drag my butt out of bed on time to call, I never have a problem getting a slot. When I sleep in a little and remember to call at 8am, then there's nothing left.

There have, however, been a few days where terminal was only taking slots for yxx, nothing in yyj or ycd, which will jam things up pretty fast.

man I would LOVE to know what magic # you were calling

PTP · Post by **PTP** » Tue Feb 27, 2007 11:44 pm

Ok, I gotta rant on this one!

Here are a few of my complaints:

1) They don't follow their own time rules. I've been calling at 0730 and wait on hold for 15 minutes to find out I can't get any of my slots. Today I tried at 0728 and got the same story. I know they are taking slots early, so do we all start calling early?

2) If I wait by my phone for 5 minutes each morning to call, why can't I get a few slots for my students?

3) The 'staffing shortages' seem to happen way more often on days where the weather would allow us to fly. And try filing a multiple flight plan flight. I sat on the ground for 30 minutes at YYJ waiting to get clearance on a second flight plan. Same thing happens all the time at CYCD.

4) One day last week the slots I got weren't there when we went to file! Turns out they decided they had a staffing shortage mid day and bumped out a bunch of flights.

5) Schools that file VFR suck. Well, maybe not. But really, isn't that cheating your students? Also, it's a pain in the ass to get vectored all over the place to keep spacing with someone who takes off vfr right in front of you.

6) Instructors STOP DOING ALL THE RADIO for your students. We all like to hear our own voice, but really. Certain A/C seem to only have a few voices that ever come over the mike. If my students can't do the majority of the radio, we have a problem and go to the sim.

Ok, that was my first AvCanada rant. Happy flying

ptp

Justwannafly · Post by **Justwannafly** » Wed Feb 28, 2007 9:36 pm

2) If I wait by my phone for 5 minutes each morning to call, why can't I get a few slots for my students?

Because YOUR students should be doing it not YOU!!!..... Schools should not be grabbing a bunch of slots that they may need that day...thus taking slots from students who need them...if your student wants to learn to fly IFR...they should be able to learn how to wake up at 7:30....That being said...if he/she does get up in time they should be able to get a slot & if they do get a slot not have them cancell'd in the middle of the day!!! grr

PTP · Post by **PTP** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 2:10 am

I typically get the slots because I'm already up and some of my students are at work in the mornings. And for a while I was trying to organize 6 flights a day. It didn't make sense to have 6 different people call. Plus if any shuffelling needs to happen it's way easier for me to organize it.

I do agree about teaching responsibility, but if they miss the call by 2 minutes, I'm miss out on an hour or two's work.

ptp

2R · Post by 2R » Fri Mar 02, 2007 10:31 am

Slots ,how boring i thought it was about Training Sluts.Must get soome glasses

Justwannafly · Post by **Justwannafly** » Sat Mar 03, 2007 5:53 pm

I do agree about teaching responsibility, but if they miss the call by 2 minutes, I'm miss out on an hour or two's work.

Course if YOU are the only one who tries to get through & you miss the call by 2 minutes your not out an hour or two, your out all day.

Does all the Instructors at PFC book their student's training slots? Just wondering cuase what happens if you book a slot for your student & then your student also books a slot? now you guys are using 2 slots. (This can happen, I once book'd a slot for the wrong aircraft & when I got to school found that both me & the person who was suposed to have that plane had a slot for that time...all I had to do was call back & change the callsign to the correct one...but still it shows that they don't realy pay much attention to who has what) Also if, like you say you book 6 or more slots at a time, is it fair for the person who call'd in 2 seconds after you, just to find that all the slots are now gone because they were the 2nd person to get through?

Justwannafly · Post by **Justwannafly** » Sat Mar 03, 2007 5:53 pm

I do agree about teaching responsibility, but if they miss the call by 2 minutes, I'm miss out on an hour or two's work.

Course if YOU are the only one who tries to get through & you miss the call by 2 minutes your not out an hour or two, your out all day.

Does all the Instructors at PFC book their student's training slots? Just wondering cuase what happens if you book a slot for your student & then your student also books a slot? now you guys are using 2 slots. (This can happen, I once book'd a slot for the wrong aircraft & when I got to school found that both me & the person who was suposed to have that plane had a slot for that time...all I had to do was call back & change the callsign to the correct one...but still it shows that they don't realy pay much attention to who has what) Also if, like you say you book 6 or more slots at a time, is it fair for the person who call'd in 2 seconds after you, just to find that all the slots are now gone because they were the 2nd person to get through?

Jim N · Post by **Jim N** » Sat Mar 03, 2007 6:03 pm

Edited

PTP · Post by **PTP** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 1:57 am

Nope, some of the other instructors don't book the spots for their students. But it's just so much easier for me to organize any changes that need to be done in the day.

The majority of my students are full time and are very flexible in their schedules, so it isn't a problem if things need to be shifted by 30minutes. Also, we all know what they are doing next (actually, they know a tentitive schedule for their whole training) so it's not hard to keep it straight. If I fly with another instructors student, we talk the day before to make sure we're on the same page.

Besides the scheduling issue, it's just easier for them. Why should the guy who bartends at night, and fly's late afternoon get up at 730 for one phone call? If I only have one flight, I may get the student to call.

Justwannafly · Post by **Justwannafly** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 8:07 pm

cause it's not fair to other students who also work all night & still get up at 7:30 just to find all the slots fill'd by one person

Otter envy · Post by **Otter envy** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 7:24 pm

Well nav Canada has called a meeting at the Surrey control Center at 10:00 on Thursday to address the problems and potential changes to the existing system. All those with a vested interest in the ifr goings in the lower mainland should attend.

Justwannafly · Post by **Justwannafly** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 10:00 pm

Otter envy wrote:Well nav Canada has called a meeting at the Surrey control Center at 10:00 on Thursday to address the problems and potential changes to the existing system. All those with a vested interest in the ifr goings in the lower mainland should attend.

hmm Im not flying in the morning I should be able to attend...what's the addy?

Justwannafly · Post by **Justwannafly** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 10:02 pm

Otter envy wrote:Well nav Canada has called a meeting at the Surrey control Center at 10:00 on Thursday to address the problems and potential changes to the existing system. All those with a vested interest in the ifr goings in the lower mainland should attend.

hmm Im not flying in the morning I should be able to attend...what's the addy?

Otter envy · Post by **Otter envy** » Wed Mar 07, 2007 2:21 pm

Don't know yet. I'll find out am post it.

altiplano · Post by **altiplano** » Wed Mar 07, 2007 2:58 pm

I don't get how you feel that going VFR is cheating your students? What do they miss out on?

My last 3 PPC rides have all been done without filing and I could care less. Same approaches, same holds, so what.

If you think this ATC slot thing is a problem then fine - but isn't the thing that is cheating your students your inflexibility to work with what it is and keep them moving forward on their training?

Here are a couple other ideas for you though if you refuse to go VFR...

Take a couple students together and go up to YQQ/YPW and do some work up there? One can do the flight up with an approach at each. ILS / LOC BC / PAR /NDB / NDB-DME - lots of options... do the hold at the NDB. Stop in YPW switch it up.

Train at night? Maybe things have changed in the Lower Mainland since I was last there but I seem to remember it being pretty slow after dinner at ZBB... Why not fly 'til late? Or is it past the students bed times?

Do you want to bitch about it or deal with it and get your students through?

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Wed Mar 07, 2007 3:31 pm

" Train at night? "

Suppose they lose outside visual reference and are forced to fly with only the instruments to stay right side up?