Combined list.....?

SouthIsland · Post by **SouthIsland** » Wed Mar 07, 2007 11:21 pm

Can anyone from AC or Jazz shed some light on this "combined pilot list" that's been a popular topic of conversation lately? What effect will it have on the pilot groups from each company? Any info would be greatly appreciated! Thanks

JazzJetDriver · Post by **JazzJetDriver** » Thu Mar 08, 2007 5:54 am

There is no, and never will be a combined list...so it's not worth talking about.

twinpratts · Post by **twinpratts** » Thu Mar 08, 2007 7:01 am

I'm pretty sure the guys (and gals) involved with the Global Solutions project have signed disclosure agreements to prevent anything from getting out, so anything you hear at this point would be speculation/ opinion. This is my opinion... and you can do what you like with that

.

KAG · Post by **KAG** » Thu Mar 08, 2007 8:51 am

There are soooooo many rumors running around, some are pretty far fetched, most of which have a common theme - BOTL for Jazz pilots, EMJ will be the "bridge" between Jazz and AC - the ability to bid up the EMJ, then up to the bigger machines.
Not sure about other issues which are many. Layoffs, pension, travel seniority if you jump over, will there be any hiring OTS anymore at AC once this happens, and so on.

Some of the crap ya hear on a daily basis…
I hear it’s almost a done deal from one CPT, then 5 mins later another CPT says that they just agreed on the communication format between our two unions, and its along way off. I hear I am building seniority as of Jan 24 on the EMJ and that anyone hired after that date at AC goes on the bottom of the “merged list” (that’s a really funny one), then another guy swears this will never happen….All best guess, no one knows what will happen.

prop2jet · Post by **prop2jet** » Thu Mar 08, 2007 1:51 pm

Any talk of a merged list is nothing more than rumour. I doubt it will ever see the light of day. Lets see how this global solution thing works first...

KAG · Post by **KAG** » Thu Mar 08, 2007 4:49 pm

isn't the merged list and global solution the same thing? I sure am under that impression.

Johnny767 · Post by **Johnny767** » Thu Mar 08, 2007 7:38 pm

It...AIN'T...ever going to happen. Unfortunately!

It takes "Three parties, ACPA, ALPA and ACE" to bless a merged seniority list.

Short of both Mainline and Jazz agreeing to strike over the issue (which would never happen) the company is NEVER going to endorse a "Merged List."

Our loss....

socrates · Post by **socrates** » Thu Mar 08, 2007 8:14 pm

I can't believe people are so negative.

Do you think anyone from Canadian would of ever thought they would be part of Air Canada one day.

In this industry you never know what could happen.

Johny767 you have to agree there are pros and cons for the company in letting this happen.

KAG · Post by **KAG** » Thu Mar 08, 2007 8:51 pm

This is a blurb from an Email I just got tonight for our jazz MEC...

One such area under discussion is the challenges associated with implementing a
single seniority list. The two MEC's have requested a meeting with Company
Executives to canvass their response to this initiative. This is a preliminary
step to gauge their interest and support for our initiatives.

Time will tell I guess.

piggy · Post by **piggy** » Thu Mar 08, 2007 9:15 pm

One thing to consider if global solutions does not work in some way for the long term benifit of pilots in Canada-the working conditions at mainline and jazz will continue to be eroded.
By the way, the CRJ 1000 is due in 2009, thats right, 2009. There is an undisclosed buyer, it is 15 % more efficient than the emb, has larger overhead bins and windows than the CRJ900 (crj705)
Oh , and it seats 100 PAX...

If history is any measure, there will be a cyclical downturn in the economy of some kind within the next 5 years.

The 65 year retirement will be a reality of the future, and therefore less retirements at the mainline.

A lot of economists believe the long term price of oil is at least $60/barrel, with a strong possibility of a spike past $100

If oil goes that high, watch out because the only thing an airline can cut after fuel goes up is wages (2nd largest cost after fuel at $60/barrel)

There are more than one analyst who say Air Canada itself post restructuring is still a losing model as costs are still two high.

You may say pilots pay does not effect the overall costs as it is a small employee group . You may be correct to some degree, however, the F/A's at AC make huge money (40, 50 , 60 thousand) and there are i think 6000-7000 of them. The overall model is too costly according to airline analysts who also say go ahead and buy the stock but GET OUT BEFORE 2010... interesting

The last thing i read on AC was that in 2005 they lost something like 30 mil, 2006 lost 70 mil, and last year AC new CEO made around 1.5 mill (incl. bonus-for what i am not sure ??)

Milton has said he is leaving probably in around 2 yrs, after that the stock will tank perhaps-who knows but his timing is perfect, rgt before the next economic downtown

Jazz has 137 a/c (around 70 jets) with around 1600 pilots.
Ac i believe has around 163 a/c and around 3300 pilots.

What will everyone think when jazz has 150 a/c or 180 a/c with 120 jets and 2000 pilots ???
who knows what will happen in the future but one thing is absolute, 2 groups this size means pain for all in the long term.

Lets not allow things to degrade here in Canada any further like the USA has done.

KAG · Post by **KAG** » Thu Mar 08, 2007 9:31 pm

I also think it's time to point out the painfully obvious, If the GS doesn’t work and Jazz and AC go to the table fighting for the same planes – Jazz will get the EMJ’s or more RJ’s. Jazz can operate them cheaper (lower pilots, FA’s, MTCE wages, training costs) there by making more money for ACE. It’s noting personal, it’s business.
Milton Wants jazz to grow, he wants to get rid of scope, and give to lions share of domestic flying to Jazz, or say past actions.

So I truly hope the ACPA/Jazz pilots come to the table with a fair offer, neither group are going to be bent over a barrel. Some people will be affected negatively, but how else do you merge lists? There will have to be give and take on both sides. Suck it up fellas and move on. This fighting has to stop.

Johnny767 · Post by **Johnny767** » Fri Mar 09, 2007 8:30 am

All of the above are fair points. However, unless the Company buys into it, it simply won't happen.

So... it is pretty obvious that there is more upside, for Milton (aka Frank Lorenzo) and crew, to keep us separate.

Smitty · Post by **Smitty** » Fri Mar 09, 2007 10:18 am

I also think it's time to point out the painfully obvious, If the GS doesn’t work and Jazz and AC go to the table fighting for the same planes – Jazz will get the EMJ’s or more RJ’s. Jazz can operate them cheaper (lower pilots, FA’s, MTCE wages, training costs) there by making more money for ACE. It’s noting personal, it’s business.
Milton Wants jazz to grow, he wants to get rid of scope, and give to lions share of domestic flying to Jazz, or say past actions.

The only downside (and the reason I think there is such a strong push for GS) is that ACE will soon cease to exist as an umbrella corporation. This means that AC and Jazz will be completely seperate companies with the only tie being the CPA. This provides AC with a fixed cost with which to operate on thinner routes.

The pendulum could swing either way on this one. Jazz ALPA has said in past meetings that they are a medium cost carrier. Not a low one. That means when negotiation time comes, ACPA may do what they did during CCAA and provide a better cost with which to operate small jets and try to capture flying back from Jazz.

This is a possibility if GS does not come to pass.

This shouldn't worry you though KAG, you'll soon be watching from the sidelines. Right??

KAG · Post by **KAG** » Fri Mar 09, 2007 12:06 pm

I just don't want to see my friends at AC or Jazz negitively affected by this, thats all. And yes, I'll think I'll be watching this from the sidelines (T3)

2low · Post by **2low** » Fri Mar 09, 2007 2:26 pm

tonysoprano · Post by **tonysoprano** » Sat Mar 10, 2007 9:35 am

I also think it's time to point out the painfully obvious, If the GS doesn’t work and Jazz and AC go to the table fighting for the same planes – Jazz will get the EMJ’s or more RJ’s. Jazz can operate them cheaper (lower pilots, FA’s, MTCE wages, training costs) there by making more money for ACE.

And now it's time to point out the painfully not so obviuos. According to some recent info discovered by ACPA, it's AC, not ACE who pays for the aircraft at Jazz, fuels them and puts passenngers in them. We also know that through the Capacity Purchace Agreement Jazz has, they are guaranteed a profit of 14% at, you guessed it, AC's expense. Gee, I wonder why margins and profit at AC are suffering. Jazz can operate them cheaper? No kidding. At AC's expense. In addition, I wonder how scope clause can just be disregarded and Jazz getting the Emb's. Not so easy. I'm starting to think the best thing that can happen to the mainline is CCAA again and maybe this time we get sold to someone who really knows about airlines.

Four1oh · Post by **Four1oh** » Sat Mar 10, 2007 10:42 am

isn't Milton setting you guys up for exactly that? How better to handle the impending 2009 job action?

Commonwealth · Post by **Commonwealth** » Sat Mar 10, 2007 11:05 am

My thoughts exactly Four One Oh, divide and conquer.

tonysoprano · Post by **tonysoprano** » Sat Mar 10, 2007 11:36 am

isn't Milton setting you guys up for exactly that? How better to handle the impending 2009 job action?

Well that's been the arm chair pholosiphy for a while. The reality is that there is a Scope Clause in our contract which Milton has to deal with and as in the last negotes, which saw Jazz get the bigger RJs, it was only with the consent of ACPA that it was allowed. Jazz can have the Emb's but only if the mainline would see more airplanes as well. Milton can divide and conquer all he wants, but unless he can get around the Scope clause or ACPA agrees, I can't see how Jazz will get anything bigger than what it has now. I don't know about you but the only way I see RM getting around our contract is by going back into CCAA and getting the courts to change the Scope clause. Divide and conquer is not as easy as it may sound. Having said all this, the negotes between ACPA and ALPA going on right now could bring about major changes to anything I've stated above. My feeling is RM doesn't give a damn beyond 2009 as he will probably be moving on. But it's in his interest to leave behind a company that is in good shape.

Martin Tamme · Post by **Martin Tamme** » Sat Mar 10, 2007 12:08 pm

tonysoprano wrote: And now it's time to point out the painfully not so obviuos. According to some recent info discovered by ACPA, it's AC, not ACE who pays for the aircraft at Jazz, fuels them and puts passenngers in them.

Just to clarify this point: The aircraft that Jazz operates are being leased by Air Canada - Not ACE; Not Jazz. Air Canada makes the lease payments, but only collects 30 Cents on the Dollar from Jazz. Air Canada pays 100% of the fuel. Air Canada pays Jazz' Nav Canada fees, landing fees, gate fees, airport fees, etc. Also, Jazz does not have a reservation system; it is being operated entirely by Air Canada, which assumes all costs.

Jazz is also guaranteed a steady stream of revenue each month; it doesn't matter if Jazz carries one million passengers or only one, they are guaranteed a certain amount by Air Canada each and every month.

With the exception of the Capacity Purchase Agreement (CPA), there are no more ties between Air Canada & Jazz. The CPA is valid for another 7 years. Nevertheless, should Air Canada enter CCAA once more, this agreement becomes null & void. Once in CCAA, if the deal with Jazz is seen as too rich, Air Canada could easily transfer the aircraft to any other operator (assuming that they found a way to get around ACPA's scope clause).

For the time being, Jazz is being mandated (reference: Jazz IPO prospectus) to make a yearly profit of 14.1%. Soutwest -the most profitable airline in the world- only clears 8%. As such, Jazz is being pumped up by Air Canada - a company to which it has no affiliations.

You can understand why the Jazz MEC is getting nervous and wants to make a deal with ACPA on collective bargaining/strategy. ACPA is doing the same for its own reasons.

P.S. Guess who has assumed the liability of the Jazz Pilots' Pension fund? Hint: Not ACE.

tonysoprano · Post by **tonysoprano** » Sat Mar 10, 2007 12:23 pm

Thanks Marty. My need to shorten the story sometimes leaves out the good stuff. My point is it's not so much RM's divide and conquer ploit but more how the two groups decide who gets what while we try be unified. And make no mistake, it is better to be unified but not at the expense of our pilots.

KAG · Post by **KAG** » Sat Mar 10, 2007 12:39 pm

so could it be that AC loseing money last quarter is really just the Jazz expense? A funny way of making AC look like a loseing company just to help fight against its work unions wanting a raise? If so thats pretty dirty pool by ACE...

Martin Tamme · Post by **Martin Tamme** » Sat Mar 10, 2007 12:56 pm

KAG wrote:so could it be that AC loseing money last quarter is really just the Jazz expense?

Ditto for Aeroplan.

BTW, did you know that if you purchased one Jazz Income Trust unit, you would receive a distribution equalling 12%. The funds are distributed each and every month to investors who own the units at the end of the month. Where does this money come from? Not ACE.

For February, the ex-dividend date was the 26th. This means that if you wanted in on the Feb distribution, you would have had to have owned the units on the 26th. The January distribution went to those who held it on the 29th.

Therefore, invest $10,000 and get a distribution of $1,200.

tonysoprano · Post by **tonysoprano** » Sat Mar 10, 2007 12:58 pm

Kag. AC's problems are not just Jazz. We have ramp guys who boast making $100k a year. But the arrangement with Jazz and Aeroplan does not help either. ACE will no longer egsist at some point. That might be a good thing.

yycflyguy · Post by **yycflyguy** » Sat Mar 10, 2007 1:23 pm

tonysoprano wrote:Kag. AC's problems are not just Jazz. We have ramp guys who boast making $100k a year.

Please tell me this is an exageration. 17 years after a PPL I hope to make half that next year!! For $100k a year you would like they would at least act like they give a crap. Are they under some work to rule campaign to show their dissatisfaction at the thought of being spun off and contracted back to ACE?? Strange to provide an inferior service when you are looking for job security.