Training bond question.....

chris28 · Post by **chris28** » Wed Aug 25, 2004 6:43 pm

I am not looking for this information for myself it's for a friend who is getting dicked around.

O.K. here it is, My "friend" joined a company 8 months ago and was promised alot of good things, Schedule, regular schedule service, lots of flying, upgraded to captain in a year...The list goes on. Anyway 8 months later he has logged 75 hours total. Now this may seem like a dream job to somone who has worked their butts off and succeeded in the aviation industry and wants to wind down their careers, but for someone who is in the process of persuing thier dreams of an airline pilot it is killer. Now the money is good, but thats it. Here is the catch, he is in a training bond until december, but just got offered a job on a biz jet in his hime town. But the start date is in 2 weeks. How would one go about getting out of this Training bond, and is the training bond actually worth the paper it is written on?

Thanks people

boeingboy · Post by **boeingboy** » Wed Aug 25, 2004 6:47 pm

Now I don't know for sure - as I've never been in that situation, but everyone I've ever talked to has said that no training contract has ever held up in court.

Was this simply a contract or did your friend actually pay for his training?

.80@410 · Post by **.80@410** » Wed Aug 25, 2004 6:51 pm

It may be smarter to pay the bond, rather than lose the reference.

This is a very small industry, and until the actual course is passed...

chris28 · Post by **chris28** » Wed Aug 25, 2004 7:38 pm

Nope it was all covered by the company although they did not pay anything either because the plane is brand new so Beechcraft covered the cost for two type ratings.....Don't get me wrong on this I and him are both firm believers in fulfilling contracts but there has to come a time when you have to look out for yourself, I mean if they kept up their end of the nargain this would never of happened either.

Thanks for the replies people any more comments are greatly appreciated

just curious · Post by **just curious** » Wed Aug 25, 2004 10:11 pm

If he's over 18 & signed...
A) get a lawyer
B) be prepared for them to get a lawyer.

LT · Post by LT » Wed Aug 25, 2004 10:34 pm

Just Curious wrote:If he's over 18 & signed...
A) get a lawyer
B) be prepared for them to get a lawyer.

http://www.tc.gc.ca/civilaviation/RegSe ... 999243.htm

Division VII - Commercial Pilot Licence
421.30 Aeroplanes - Requirements
(1) Age
An applicant shall be a minimum of eighteen years of age.

I'm guessing he's legal..

Maybe he should ask his employer?

"Hey I got a new gig, you promised X and gave Y.. I got to leave, sorry, will this cause any problems/complications?"..

Sept, Oct, Nov, Dec.. 4 months.. Not too much time left on his 'bond'.

KAG · Post by **KAG** » Wed Aug 25, 2004 11:00 pm

Is the Bond pro-rated? If so, then your friend only has to pay what is outstanding. If not its going to be expensive. But, I have yet to hear of a bond holding up in court, but it wont go that far. If your "friend" finds that the company is in breech on the employee agreement (not given what was promised) then he/she should feel no issue with leaving. Its a matter of honor, and what is best for your friend.

Cheers.

Mitch Cronin · Post by **Mitch Cronin** » Wed Aug 25, 2004 11:34 pm

If it truly is a matter of honor, that all that matters is the agreement, and the intent of that agreement.... If the employer clearly hasn't fulfilled his end of the bargain, then stuff him! On the other hand... if the thoughts of oodles of flying hours was more hope than promise, maybe the agreement needs to be fulfilled.

phatboy · Post by **phatboy** » Thu Aug 26, 2004 5:20 am

tell your buddy i'll trade jobs with him. I'm flying 80 hours a month and I would gladly fly 75 hours in 8 months. After 7000 hours it really sucks.

Bede · Post by **Bede** » Thu Aug 26, 2004 6:05 am

I left a company for the exact same reasons as your friend: Promised one thing and given something completely different. I had 6 mo left on a two year bond and left without paying. The bosses were up in arms, because I was "dishonest". Well, it was their dishonesty (you'll make $4000/mo - I made $2500) that led me to the situation. Suprisingly, I still have a good relationship with them. Three weeks after I left, TC pulled the OC.

xsbank · Post by **xsbank** » Thu Aug 26, 2004 9:56 am

Some provinces' legal societies have a referral system whereby they provide the lawyer and you get the first half hour visit/consultation for $10. This was a while ago and this may have changed, but it might be worth a case of beer to ask a lawyer to look over your agreement?

My training bond included 2 jet type ratings. I did not have to pay or forfeit pay, I just had to agree to work here for 2 years. Its now expired and I am able to go if I wish. Any guys who left early had to pay, or they negotiated a deal whereby they would contract back to the employer to pay it off. I am absolutely opposed to paying for training, under ANY circumstances, but an agreement to stay in exchange is reasonable when one type rating costs $30,000 US. Escape clauses such as dismissal for cause or sickness/injury or even incompatability would seem to be appropriate too.

I would check your position, then try and negotiate first. If they paid you what they promised, I would bet that the number of hours flown will not be in the agreement. If it gets out that you are 'flighty' even with a training bond, do you think reputable employers will consider you?
If you break your agreement and stiff your employer, would you want to work for a new employer who knew what you had done and yet still hired you? I'll bet he will think very little of your likelihood of making a committment to him either and will treat you as a consumable. Try telling your story to the hiring guys at Westjet, or AC when they start to hire again, as they will one day...

Good luck.

tripod · Post by **tripod** » Thu Aug 26, 2004 10:44 am

This actually happened several years ago, like about 10.

Pilot is obligated to company x and has a couple days off. He does not return to work and spreads the story that his mother is deathly ill and gets more time off. After a few weeks company x finds out he has been working for company y since his first day off.

snaproll20 · Post by **snaproll20** » Thu Aug 26, 2004 11:53 am

Read and understand any bond you sign. It should state in clear language what the terms are. If you do not agree with something and the prospective employer is not willing to change it, then beware of this company. Both sides should have rights.
Contrary to other opinions here, I have heard bonds have stood up in court. You sign your name.....you're in the game.
Bottom line? Do what is best for yourself, nobody else will.

Butterz · Post by **Butterz** » Thu Aug 26, 2004 1:19 pm

The new job offer in your friend's home town flying a biz jet sounds like a dream job to many pilots out there I'm sure, including myself. Your friend just has to ask himself if he thinks it's worth paying the rest of the bond, only 1/3 of it is left, if the employers are willing to negotiate that. From the sounds of things at least they paid him what they promised, forecasting exactly how much a company is going to fly is sometimes hard to predict.
I'd rather pay the remainder of the bond and leave on good terms. If they refuse to accept that and take you to court, then fight!

southbound · Post by **southbound** » Thu Aug 26, 2004 3:06 pm

Excellent points to consider.......I can see the training bond issue from both sides. My greatest concern is the individuals that get into the business with fancifull ideas of making a good living as owners of an aviation company. They get a couple of pilots stiff them...then they get all jaded and start instituting a training bond policy to ensure the pilots stay for a predetermined period of time. Doesnt the process of writing a business plan take into account all the forseeable variables and cause a person to ask themselves...can I make ago of it with what I know?????? It should anyway?????? Training bonds cause polarity instantaneously between mgmt and staff. Take a look at Wendell Umble from Alberta Central Airways and see how loyal his staff is to him????? NO TRAINING BONDS THERE thats for sure.
So...to sum things up from my perspective the high cost of training is part of doing business. A reasonable rate of attrition is all part of doing business. So if you are an owner...get a grip!!!! start treating you staff like they are the assets and not the iron and then perhaps people won't be looking to leave the second they start.

SB

tailgunner · Post by **tailgunner** » Thu Aug 26, 2004 3:23 pm

This is a very interesting problem. Essentially it boils down to how much the employee feels that he owes the employer. One could argue that we all live in a free market, that is we are free as employee's to shop our services around to the highest bidder. This may add some immediate financial benefit to the employee, but in the long run may prove detrimental to his/her profession as a whole. By playing the market we as pilots introduce a number a differing variables into our profession. Firstly, we strive to be treated as professionals by our employers, yet unlike other professionals we do not have to write entrance exams, pass the bar etc. By not having such things as a provincial bar exam, we as pilots are inherently more mobile than other professions.This mobility allows us unrestricted access to the entire countryfor employment, but we also must realize the cost. Training bonds ( honest bonds, unlike AF) that are signed and exchanged for actual professional training should be expected. These may cover the actual cost of training, and should only be termed for one year. Under these circumstances if you as a pilot sign an honest agreement, and your employer has represented themselves honestly, then I believe that the pilot should act professionally and fulfill the agreement. If this became the norm, I believe that slowly we as pilots would be increasingly seen as a "profession" and not like the " drivers" that we are.

southbound · Post by **southbound** » Thu Aug 26, 2004 3:40 pm

Tailgunner.

You seem a little wet behind the ears. All this philosophical spunk has side tracked the issue. So if the employer gives you Flight Safety for a Citation X PPC and wants a four year bond ( because he wants to have some garauntee on his investment) you will take it???? What if AC calls, What if your dream corporate job calls a year into the bond????? Now what are you going to do green horn???

There is enough risk mitigation in this business to begin with and the road is marred with many setbacks to get where you want to. We don't need TB's on top of it all.

SB

SB

bentheredunthat · Post by **bentheredunthat** » Thu Aug 26, 2004 4:18 pm

How is your work relationship with the current company. Be honest and tell them your goals and that this is a good opportunity for your career progression. They may relax a little on your TB (hopefully it was pro-rated). If your working relationship is no good, then forget this tactic !

The TB cases I am aware of have worked out in favour of the aircrew in all but one. The one guy was pressured and did not want to stick it out, a legal thing, so he paid his dues to get them off his back.
In another case, the new employer bought the new guy out ($40K worth) from the old employer. In all the other cases, no money payback was ever exchanged.

I've actually just told my boss, in confidence, that I am looking elsewhere. (more of a geographical thing for me) As devastating as it was for him to hear this, he offered his help with the contacts he knows in the business.

wallypilot · Post by **wallypilot** » Thu Aug 26, 2004 4:32 pm

southbound...read tailgunner's post again...what was said was that a ONE year bond is reasonable. to which i agree. no one is talking about a 4 year bond. we all know that is unreasonable.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Thu Aug 26, 2004 4:35 pm

Well if I owned an airplane and was looking for a pilot, I see no reason why a training bond would be any problem.

A training bond is insurance that a pilot will not just up and leave and I am stuck with the cost of having trained the pilot.

The training bond must of course be pro rated as to time, say $12,000 for the the cost of training decreasing by $1,000 per. month.

There are as many or more untrustworthy pilots as there are owners.

The bond is only some insurance for the owner who is fronting the money.

If the pilot gets an offer from a major airline a good employer will do their best to help a good employee get ahead.

It has to work two ways.

.

Valhalla · Post by **Valhalla** » Thu Aug 26, 2004 4:38 pm

I've done a little research myself, since I've got a bond also. If your bond was contested in court, the company would have to prove that the bond value equals the amount spent for training. A company cannot just set the bond value at whatever it sees fit. Therefore, if the training was free to the company (through Beechcraft), the company would have a hard time proving that the training cost anything at all.

wallypilot · Post by **wallypilot** » Thu Aug 26, 2004 4:51 pm

hmmm....good to know.

Cat, I agree with ya. I have worked with companies that don't require training bonds, but I have always felt the moral obligation to stay for one year minimum. And they were good companies, and I actually stuck around for a fair bit longer than that as they were good places to work. But, I would have no problem signing a training bond for one year as long as the company lived up to its side of the bargain.

-wp

southbound · Post by **southbound** » Thu Aug 26, 2004 10:35 pm

Wallypilot.....with all due respect I understand tailgunners point. The point I was making was that 1 yr or 3yrs..it's all the same. A Citation X PPC wouldn't yeild a 1 yr bond, probably 3 min....I happen to know that AF was bonding pilots 7500.00 over 18 months for a senecaII PPC. The Bond is a fear based move on behalf of the employer to shackle the employee to the organization. Training expenses are part of doing business in the aviation industry. I really appreciate those that have said that when they haven't had to sign a bond they have in most cases stayed longer out of appreciation and respect.

SB

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Fri Aug 27, 2004 7:07 am

O.K. Southbound :

I agree with you that training expenses are part of doing business in the aviation industry. However there is a little more to it than that, for instance the owner must train for a set number of hours due to TC's policy.

It matters not the skills and knowledge of any pilot you hire, all are required to train to the amount of time it would take the dummest among us to master the beast.

I have been out of the Canadian scene for some years now however my last position was Chief Pilot for a company operating C117's and the company had a one year bond in place to help guard against the PPC and run types.

So if you were the owner and forced to train new hires six hours on a machine that costs around two thousand dollars an hour to operate would you not want some guarantee that the new hire will not just walk before you recover your investment?

.

phatboy · Post by **phatboy** » Fri Aug 27, 2004 7:39 am

If I were him...i would just quit...piss on the owner...he lied to him so screw him. Training bonds can be broken as can promises companies make to pilots. Everyone says this industry is so small, I disagree somewhat many people have screwed over companies only to get further ahead in there career. In my experience it doesn't really seem to hurt a persons chances of getting ahead based on the type of a**hole they are.

So screw em....

Training bond question.....

Training bond question.....

i'll trade jobs...

Training Bond

training bond

Tell him to do whatever he wants...