For all you Newbies wanting a good start
Moderators: North Shore, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, I WAS Birddog
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planedriver,
before I answer your question, first I want to say this, 9-11 was a huge bump in the road (understatement) for aviation, and so guys that looked high and low for a flying job and couldn't find one, well if they decided to work the ramp, so be it.
But what drives me nuts is those who become complacent and blinded to the fact that they can still leave a company and the ramp if they get that flying job they've been searching for. Never give up on the flying job!
There are lots of opportunities to get PIC time as a 250 hr pilot....pipeline patol, glider towing, skydiving pilot, single engine charter pilot, traffic watch, etc. and these jobs are all over Canada. Sure, some of them might be seasonal, but my point is the PIC time and experience is more valuable than working the ramp.
And true, you might still have to work hard to find that next job whatever it may be, and move around again, but no one said this career path was easy.
If someone is able to get PIC time (instructing or not) and get 1000 hours plus, they will find their way into the same turbine or similar (most likely) as someone working the ramp for say 2 years. The difference is, the person who was able to fly right from the get go will be able to get their ATPL faster, and as a result get a quicker upgrade and be able to move on to their final goals (whatever those may be) faster.
Every hour logged is one step closer to your goals. But that's just my view.
before I answer your question, first I want to say this, 9-11 was a huge bump in the road (understatement) for aviation, and so guys that looked high and low for a flying job and couldn't find one, well if they decided to work the ramp, so be it.
But what drives me nuts is those who become complacent and blinded to the fact that they can still leave a company and the ramp if they get that flying job they've been searching for. Never give up on the flying job!
There are lots of opportunities to get PIC time as a 250 hr pilot....pipeline patol, glider towing, skydiving pilot, single engine charter pilot, traffic watch, etc. and these jobs are all over Canada. Sure, some of them might be seasonal, but my point is the PIC time and experience is more valuable than working the ramp.
And true, you might still have to work hard to find that next job whatever it may be, and move around again, but no one said this career path was easy.
If someone is able to get PIC time (instructing or not) and get 1000 hours plus, they will find their way into the same turbine or similar (most likely) as someone working the ramp for say 2 years. The difference is, the person who was able to fly right from the get go will be able to get their ATPL faster, and as a result get a quicker upgrade and be able to move on to their final goals (whatever those may be) faster.
Every hour logged is one step closer to your goals. But that's just my view.
Kick the tires and light the fires...
My message from yesterday was eaten by the system so here it goes again.
I know someone who is getting his journeyman ticket from the Canadian Forces. All paid for just give a 5 year commitment. Not much different from sticking with any 4 year trade or degree program.
If I could do things again I would have jointed the Air Cadets in my teens. I agree that experience - teamwork, structure -would be good.
I know someone who is getting his journeyman ticket from the Canadian Forces. All paid for just give a 5 year commitment. Not much different from sticking with any 4 year trade or degree program.
If I could do things again I would have jointed the Air Cadets in my teens. I agree that experience - teamwork, structure -would be good.
That'll buff right out 
RC320, I respect that your opinion is valid, I just think that a ramp job that does not actively involve a check-out is BS; exploitation; a slow-down in your career. If you have to eat, fair enough, but there is no reason to hang out for 2 years and get right seat on a PA31 or a Van.
Very few guys go right seat in a turbine and as was pointed out, you are slowing your career waiting for it. Get out and add some hours to your logbook before the music stops!!!!!!!!!!
Very few guys go right seat in a turbine and as was pointed out, you are slowing your career waiting for it. Get out and add some hours to your logbook before the music stops!!!!!!!!!!
"What's it doing now?"
"Fly low and slow and throttle back in the turns."
"Fly low and slow and throttle back in the turns."
Well, its not that I havent been looking. I've exhausted sending out resumes and following up.xsbank wrote:RC320, I respect that your opinion is valid, I just think that a ramp job that does not actively involve a check-out is BS; exploitation; a slow-down in your career. If you have to eat, fair enough, but there is no reason to hang out for 2 years and get right seat on a PA31 or a Van.
Very few guys go right seat in a turbine and as was pointed out, you are slowing your career waiting for it. Get out and add some hours to your logbook before the music stops!!!!!!!!!!
Maybe its just me. Luck and timing have so far not yet been on my side.
In the mean time I'll work on the ground until I either find a direct entry job somewhere else, or until the CP gives me the word that I'll be getting on. With the amount of movement thats been going on here, I think its safe to say my wait may only be a year.
There's nothing stopping a newbie from leaving a ground job for a flying position so why not take a ramp/dispatch position in the mean time. Somehow, even though the industry is moving really well right now, I doubt every 250hr wonder should expect to find a flying position right off the bat. There are less students enrolling in flight school so the instructor market isn't exactly a bed of roses. Even though there are more companies lowering their standards it's not quite to the point where everyone going to Wasaya, NAC, Perimeter ect. are all fresh out of flight school.
If you're looking for your first flying job right now you should be looking to get into the industry first, and getting a flying position second. The sooner you're in with any company, regardless of the position, the more likely you'll survive the next down turn. No one will fault you if a flying position comes up and you pack your bags. Holding out for a flying position, could be a big mistake. You can make $10/hr at a gas station waiting for your ticket or you can make $10/hr slinging bags in Pickle or The Knife.
If you're looking for your first flying job right now you should be looking to get into the industry first, and getting a flying position second. The sooner you're in with any company, regardless of the position, the more likely you'll survive the next down turn. No one will fault you if a flying position comes up and you pack your bags. Holding out for a flying position, could be a big mistake. You can make $10/hr at a gas station waiting for your ticket or you can make $10/hr slinging bags in Pickle or The Knife.
Ramping for a reputable company that has a solid track record of promoting rampies to the flight line in a year or two (depending on the health of the industry) is a great option for those of us who don't have a Daddy or Uncle who own's a company. Ramping seems to me, to be the only way to break into this crazy industry.Yes, there are still a few lucky guys and gals who are in the right place at the right time and don't have to ramp for their first job,however if one was to do their homework prior to ramping for just any old company,and you target a good company,then you will eventually achieve your dream. This Boys and Girls,is not a new concept in the aviation world. 
Keep the dirty side down.
Worth what you paid me for it:
1) Lincoln freed the slaves
2) A day with time in your logbook is better than a day without time in your logbook, if you have less than 5,000 hours.
I realize that everyone rather tiresomely has to justify their own decision - they try to promote the route they took, and thus their decision, and thus their judgement and intelligence.
How many people tell you they just bought a a really expensive widget, and it was a complete waste of money?
I just hate to see young kids getting taken advantage of, and that especially includes:
A) putting money on account at a flight school, and
B) being someone's ramp bitch after being sold a bill of goods about "having to prove my character to the company", and after a year or two, watching the company hire more qualified pilots from outside for the right seat. The first time that happened, you can bet I'd walk in the owner's door and tell him, "Sorry, I like to be kissed before I get fucked", then I'd turn and walk out the door for the last time.
1) Lincoln freed the slaves
2) A day with time in your logbook is better than a day without time in your logbook, if you have less than 5,000 hours.
I realize that everyone rather tiresomely has to justify their own decision - they try to promote the route they took, and thus their decision, and thus their judgement and intelligence.
How many people tell you they just bought a a really expensive widget, and it was a complete waste of money?
I just hate to see young kids getting taken advantage of, and that especially includes:
A) putting money on account at a flight school, and
B) being someone's ramp bitch after being sold a bill of goods about "having to prove my character to the company", and after a year or two, watching the company hire more qualified pilots from outside for the right seat. The first time that happened, you can bet I'd walk in the owner's door and tell him, "Sorry, I like to be kissed before I get fucked", then I'd turn and walk out the door for the last time.
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flyinthebug
- Rank (9)
- Posts: 1686
- Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2004 8:36 am
- Location: CYPA
My 2 cents...
Ive been involved on a management level with two diffrent air services in the past 7 years. One a mid sized 703 op with piston and turbine and one a 703/704/705 with a large fleet of turbines.
One respected and one not so much. Both have been around for over 25 years and still in operation.
BOTH companies hired commercial pilots for the "ramp". Some dispatched, some chucked bags, some cut grass, some pulled panels until midnight to help the AMEs get the planes ready for the morning.
My point is, I watched a team form in both cases. I watched young pilots away from mom and dad for the first time become young men and women with their own indenity. Yes there were hiccups along the way. Some got ahead of others due to hard work and extra effort (not kissin ass, REAL hard work and a commitment to the company) and some hard feelings occured, but in the big picture.. Everyone I promised would get an aircraft, got an aircraft. If the company keeps its word and promotes to the flight line from the ramp, then this is a good system and ive seen it work well. The internal squabbles between a FEW were addressed and an explanation was offered by management as to why someone got ahead and that usually resulted in better efforts across the board. It wasnt intimidation in any form.. It was the young pilots seeing management keep its word and therefore they were happy to put the effort forth to see the same results as those ahead of them.
Good bad or indiffrent, it works!
Pay them fairly, send them on empty legs, treat them with respect and you`ve got a GREAT way to assist the company with its needs, as it matures newbies for the flightline ( I HATE the name "wannabes") and they inturn learn the internal workings of the company they will soon fly for. How can it not work? It does.
To the guys and gals starting out... BOTH sides of this issue have a good point.. I mean, who would choose to work the ramp for 18 months when there are so many opportunities out there to go direct into the right seat of a turbine and even float opportunities everywhere it seems... yes even for newbies. But at the same time, this hiring "boom" we are witnessing wont last much longer and the RAMP is not a bad option should the industry dictate.
Like I said, my 2cents. The ramp OR the dock IS a good place to start.
Fly safe all.
Ive been involved on a management level with two diffrent air services in the past 7 years. One a mid sized 703 op with piston and turbine and one a 703/704/705 with a large fleet of turbines.
One respected and one not so much. Both have been around for over 25 years and still in operation.
BOTH companies hired commercial pilots for the "ramp". Some dispatched, some chucked bags, some cut grass, some pulled panels until midnight to help the AMEs get the planes ready for the morning.
My point is, I watched a team form in both cases. I watched young pilots away from mom and dad for the first time become young men and women with their own indenity. Yes there were hiccups along the way. Some got ahead of others due to hard work and extra effort (not kissin ass, REAL hard work and a commitment to the company) and some hard feelings occured, but in the big picture.. Everyone I promised would get an aircraft, got an aircraft. If the company keeps its word and promotes to the flight line from the ramp, then this is a good system and ive seen it work well. The internal squabbles between a FEW were addressed and an explanation was offered by management as to why someone got ahead and that usually resulted in better efforts across the board. It wasnt intimidation in any form.. It was the young pilots seeing management keep its word and therefore they were happy to put the effort forth to see the same results as those ahead of them.
Good bad or indiffrent, it works!
Pay them fairly, send them on empty legs, treat them with respect and you`ve got a GREAT way to assist the company with its needs, as it matures newbies for the flightline ( I HATE the name "wannabes") and they inturn learn the internal workings of the company they will soon fly for. How can it not work? It does.
To the guys and gals starting out... BOTH sides of this issue have a good point.. I mean, who would choose to work the ramp for 18 months when there are so many opportunities out there to go direct into the right seat of a turbine and even float opportunities everywhere it seems... yes even for newbies. But at the same time, this hiring "boom" we are witnessing wont last much longer and the RAMP is not a bad option should the industry dictate.
Like I said, my 2cents. The ramp OR the dock IS a good place to start.
Fly safe all.
"...Pay them fairly, send them on empty legs, treat them with respect..."
This is what is missing in most ramp jobs and what I object to about the whole scenario.
What I want to hear is "...yes, we will have a flying job for you as soon as there is an opening. We will start you on the ramp/dispatch/mechanic's helper/dock until there is an opening. Go help Bob load that airplane - you and Bob will be taking it to deliver those groceries. We'll start your checkout today."
This is what is missing in most ramp jobs and what I object to about the whole scenario.
What I want to hear is "...yes, we will have a flying job for you as soon as there is an opening. We will start you on the ramp/dispatch/mechanic's helper/dock until there is an opening. Go help Bob load that airplane - you and Bob will be taking it to deliver those groceries. We'll start your checkout today."
"What's it doing now?"
"Fly low and slow and throttle back in the turns."
"Fly low and slow and throttle back in the turns."
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flyinthebug
- Rank (9)
- Posts: 1686
- Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2004 8:36 am
- Location: CYPA
Fair enough Xsbank.. but as im sure you understand this just isnt viable for alot of companies and therefore could not always be a realistic option. BUT I have personally put more then one new guy/gal at the front door at the right place right time directly into a seat (never ahead of current ground crew) and his/her PCC started that day as they pulled panels that night. So, in some cases that works too. It cant all be about the employee all the time or there wont be air services around.
Theres gotta be a happy medium for the newbies startin out. I assure you if we had more money to pay, we would (at smaller op i mentioned) and the other one pays quite decent wages for its ground crew.
My only point is the system of hiring from the ramp has always worked as long as everyone plays by the rules and its truly a good place to get your feet wet and learn the industry you work in.
Fly safe all, Cheers
Theres gotta be a happy medium for the newbies startin out. I assure you if we had more money to pay, we would (at smaller op i mentioned) and the other one pays quite decent wages for its ground crew.
My only point is the system of hiring from the ramp has always worked as long as everyone plays by the rules and its truly a good place to get your feet wet and learn the industry you work in.
Fly safe all, Cheers
Hedley wrote:Worth what you paid me for it:
1) Lincoln freed the slaves
2) A day with time in your logbook is better than a day without time in your logbook, if you have less than 5,000 hours.
I realize that everyone rather tiresomely has to justify their own decision - they try to promote the route they took, and thus their decision, and thus their judgement and intelligence.
How many people tell you they just bought a a really expensive widget, and it was a complete waste of money?
I just hate to see young kids getting taken advantage of, and that especially includes:
A) putting money on account at a flight school, and
B) being someone's ramp bitch after being sold a bill of goods about "having to prove my character to the company", and after a year or two, watching the company hire more qualified pilots from outside for the right seat. The first time that happened, you can bet I'd walk in the owner's door and tell him, "Sorry, I like to be kissed before I get fucked", then I'd turn and walk out the door for the last time.
Okay, so you had a experience going that route. doesnt mean we all will. and sure im justifying the route I took. I spent a long time deciding and I did my research, only to have many people (not only on here) talk about how the route guys like me take is useless and pointless. that's a basic "are you dumb?" statement. and yes ive had that said to me too b4. You say you hate seeing young guys gettin screwed, well I do too and its nice to know guys like you are actively against it.
But, so many people are telling me these days no one should have to work the ramp first. Okay...if that is true, why is it after 2 years I dont have a single hour from a commcercial operation logged in my log book? I've been out there, dropping off resumes, road trips, thousands spent on plane tickets and 100 trees destroyed applying at numerous places.
I wont just sit around waiting for an employer to realize im worth a damn and give me a job flying for them after the countless follow-ups.
Instead, I'll work on the ground for a company that hires from within, and has been doing so for the last 5+ years without any controversy. In fact a good 90% of the pilots in my company, have worked on the ground before management said "put em on an aircraft"
Guys who got screwed on the ground maybe did so because of their own lack of research and careful thinking
flyingthebug is describing a company that is exactly like mine. When i saw how many of our pilots once worked the ground for my company, yeah its safe to say I wont be gettin screwed over, unless I screw up one too many times in a big big way.
What about this, your offered a job on the docks working for 1 to 1 1/2 years before upgrade to right seat Twin Otter. You've also got an offer to start right seat on a Cheiftan. Where you want to be is on floats and although you stand to build time on a Cheiftan this will get you no closer to a float job due to lack of float hours. What would you do?
Depends on what your ultimate goal is. Do you want to ultimatley become a float pilot? Or do you want to get into the jets?floatgoat wrote:Good point, however I believe you do a fair amount of flying as they upgade you from right seat to the Beaver. Also, flying a cheiftan certainly doesn't help you fly a single engine on floats but get's you hours. It's a tricky one.
Float? Then work on the dock
Jets? Then go for the Navajo
Here's hoping all the newbies starting this season have to make that decision. Let me know if any of you do.
2 years ramp work and a basic 7 hour Float endorsement = PPC on a Multi-Turbine Aircraft . 
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'effin hippie
- Rank 5
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- Joined: Sat Feb 28, 2004 6:44 pm
- Location: Further..further...ok, too far...
Jeesuz, are we still raking this over?
Anyone who says its easy for the average just-trained guy to get their first flying job has got their head shoved waaay up their a**.
The only rule: DON"T BUY A F***IN" PPC!!
Other than that, do whatever you need to get into the drivers seat: ramp/dock, drive a shit truck, work Daddy's connections, blow the CP - or just kiss so much ass no one else will come near you. Seen it all work.
Oh, and I know I'm resurrecting a minor point from pg 1, but desks and 2low, lay off Nark, he's come one hell of a long way from the ramp in YSF where I knew him, and he got where he is by working really hard and being tougher than you probably ever will be. You don't like that he's proud of his job and wants to suggest it to others - shove it! I don't think telling people you've got it good is egotism.
ef
Anyone who says its easy for the average just-trained guy to get their first flying job has got their head shoved waaay up their a**.
The only rule: DON"T BUY A F***IN" PPC!!
Other than that, do whatever you need to get into the drivers seat: ramp/dock, drive a shit truck, work Daddy's connections, blow the CP - or just kiss so much ass no one else will come near you. Seen it all work.
Oh, and I know I'm resurrecting a minor point from pg 1, but desks and 2low, lay off Nark, he's come one hell of a long way from the ramp in YSF where I knew him, and he got where he is by working really hard and being tougher than you probably ever will be. You don't like that he's proud of his job and wants to suggest it to others - shove it! I don't think telling people you've got it good is egotism.
ef
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invertedattitude
- Rank 10
- Posts: 2353
- Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2004 1:12 pm
Any wuss who can't work the ramp for a small operation is a pansy and shouldn't be allowed to fly anyway.
Trying slaving the ramp for the big airlines where you really bust your balls for nothing at all.
If I met a guy who was looking for flying work and turned down such an oppertunity I would at the very least chew him out, and most likely smack him around for being an idiot.
Trying slaving the ramp for the big airlines where you really bust your balls for nothing at all.
If I met a guy who was looking for flying work and turned down such an oppertunity I would at the very least chew him out, and most likely smack him around for being an idiot.
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Dominic220
- Rank 3
- Posts: 100
- Joined: Wed May 10, 2006 7:22 pm
what, you mean like Westjet, Continental, Zoom, US Airways, Thomas Cook, CanJet, DND flights, and Diplomatic flights, getting shivved and getting paid $9.22/hr w/ $22 taken off every two weeks? Yeah... it sucks.invertedattitude wrote:Any wuss who can't work the ramp for a small operation is a pansy and shouldn't be allowed to fly anyway.
Trying slaving the ramp for the big airlines where you really bust your balls for nothing at all.
