Ottawa orders probe of B.C. plane crashes???
Moderators: lilfssister, North Shore, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, I WAS Birddog
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Cat Driver
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Cat Driver
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Perhaps some of the unarticuated rebuttals posted here are because we are tired of the same topics being posted over and over by the same people with the same slant.
Those that work in Canadian aviation are well aware that economics is a more powerful force than governed safety. Most seasoned people have safety up front in their minds and do their best. However smaller operators usually do not attract seasoned people. There will always be room for improvements and those of us in the industry are aware and strive for it. We do not need constant postings of this incident or that incident, or this news article or that news article. Anyone who has been involved with an incident or accident and has seen it reported in the news will know that there is usually a slant towards the reporters bias. A constant reminder of an individuals loss wears thin as there is a long line.
It would be quite beneficial to have a post of the ongoing findings from the auditor general and other tribunals. We all want to see things improve but we do not need a constant hammering of how bad some perceive it.
Those that work in Canadian aviation are well aware that economics is a more powerful force than governed safety. Most seasoned people have safety up front in their minds and do their best. However smaller operators usually do not attract seasoned people. There will always be room for improvements and those of us in the industry are aware and strive for it. We do not need constant postings of this incident or that incident, or this news article or that news article. Anyone who has been involved with an incident or accident and has seen it reported in the news will know that there is usually a slant towards the reporters bias. A constant reminder of an individuals loss wears thin as there is a long line.
It would be quite beneficial to have a post of the ongoing findings from the auditor general and other tribunals. We all want to see things improve but we do not need a constant hammering of how bad some perceive it.
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shitdisturber
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- Location: If it's Monday it's got to be somewhere shitty
Brilliant Ducapo we can put you in the first spot of the unarticulated rebuttals category.
Your tone illustrates my point much better than I could have done. Your choice of excerpt from my post is curious though. Sheila Fraser is the Auditor General of Canada and Merlin Preuss is the Director General of Civil Aviation for TC. Therefore the quote you chose was intended to mean that it would be more beneficial to have posts of the findings of the Auditor General's office, Sheila Fraser, and others involved in this investigation.
This site must have a couple thousand people registered yet it is the same 6 or 7 that keep posting rants that are not helpful to the cause, as well founded as you are. You chose a sarcastic and ignorant reply to my post which is likely indicative of why most do not bother with this topic on Avcanada. There are intelligent and well informed people concerned about this issue and the current tone, such as yours, does nothing to bolster the interest of many.
In other words it would be beneficial to hear what the government officials have to say. Not what the same 6 or 7 people's opinions are on this site over and over and over.
For your education this is the Auditor General's site:
http://www.oag-bvg.gc.ca/domino/oag-bvg ... menue.html
Your tone illustrates my point much better than I could have done. Your choice of excerpt from my post is curious though. Sheila Fraser is the Auditor General of Canada and Merlin Preuss is the Director General of Civil Aviation for TC. Therefore the quote you chose was intended to mean that it would be more beneficial to have posts of the findings of the Auditor General's office, Sheila Fraser, and others involved in this investigation.
This site must have a couple thousand people registered yet it is the same 6 or 7 that keep posting rants that are not helpful to the cause, as well founded as you are. You chose a sarcastic and ignorant reply to my post which is likely indicative of why most do not bother with this topic on Avcanada. There are intelligent and well informed people concerned about this issue and the current tone, such as yours, does nothing to bolster the interest of many.
In other words it would be beneficial to hear what the government officials have to say. Not what the same 6 or 7 people's opinions are on this site over and over and over.
For your education this is the Auditor General's site:
http://www.oag-bvg.gc.ca/domino/oag-bvg ... menue.html
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Cat Driver
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gli77, are you suggesting that Merlin Preuss has the same intregity as Shelia Fraser, just because of the office he holds?" Your choice of excerpt from my post is curious though. Sheila Fraser is the Auditor General of Canada and Merlin Preuss is the Director General of Civil Aviation for TC. "
I have taken the liberty of linking this comment you made in another thread.
The difference between Sheila Fraser and Merlin Preuss is Ms. Fraser does forensic examinations of government spending, and by all accounts has integrity.The move by a few on this site is definitely commendable but I do take issue with some of the emails that were posted. I for one do not want any member of government to put any credence to what is posted on Avcanada or any internet forum. I do not want one cent of taxpayer money to go towards someone sitting in an office reading these forums. There is a due process to follow, and it sounds like many of you have a great movement in that due process.
Merlin Preuss on the other hand does not respect the rule of law, especially where due process is concerned.
Merlin Preuss is a disgrase to the office he holds.
As to this being an internet forum, all you need do is contact Pruess and demand he take me to task for my allegations..he knows who I am and where to find me.
. .
Last edited by Cat Driver on Wed Apr 04, 2007 9:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Cat driver I was pointing out who Merlin Pruess is and who the Auditor General is in response to Ducapo's reply. I have no idea how either one conducts themselves and nowhere did I indicate that. If either is corrupt then there is a due process to determine this. One disadvanatge of democracy is that this due process can take some time to be accomplished.
Ducapo's quote and sarcastic reply was that for those of us who are rationally impartial we are sticking our heads in the sand, waiting for Merlin Preuss to tell us everything is ok. The excerpt Ducapo quoted from me implies the opposite, in that I think it is better for this site to share with us what the Auditor General and others release to the press. A lot of people are aware that there are two sides to every story.
With regards to your second quote I think you are stretching your character into the lunatic realm by recommending the internet as a reliable resource for government officials to view. The internet is a vast resource of lies, half truths, conspiracy theories, crackpots, predators and people just out for a laugh to wind people up on a forum. It would be a tremendous waste of government resources if government employees do as you suggest and read these forums especially since the same few post the same thing over and over. You may very well have been wronged by TC and your efforts are likley for the benefit of us all, but in some posts you offer nothing but noise. I say some because disregarding any post to do with TC you have some good opinons to offer.
No I am not going to contact Merlin Preuss and demand he take you to task.
Ducapo's quote and sarcastic reply was that for those of us who are rationally impartial we are sticking our heads in the sand, waiting for Merlin Preuss to tell us everything is ok. The excerpt Ducapo quoted from me implies the opposite, in that I think it is better for this site to share with us what the Auditor General and others release to the press. A lot of people are aware that there are two sides to every story.
With regards to your second quote I think you are stretching your character into the lunatic realm by recommending the internet as a reliable resource for government officials to view. The internet is a vast resource of lies, half truths, conspiracy theories, crackpots, predators and people just out for a laugh to wind people up on a forum. It would be a tremendous waste of government resources if government employees do as you suggest and read these forums especially since the same few post the same thing over and over. You may very well have been wronged by TC and your efforts are likley for the benefit of us all, but in some posts you offer nothing but noise. I say some because disregarding any post to do with TC you have some good opinons to offer.
No I am not going to contact Merlin Preuss and demand he take you to task.
gli77,
Cheers,
Snoopy
I am afraid that due process doesn't exist with Transport Canada at this time - that is one of the things we are fighting for.If either is corrupt then there is a due process to determine this.
Cheers,
Snoopy
“Never interrupt someone doing something you said couldn’t be done.” Amelia Earhart
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Cat Driver
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Actually under Canadian law due process does exist Snoopy, we only need find the lever to make it work in the office of the" I am afraid that due process doesn't exist with Transport Canada at this time - that is one of the things we are fighting for. "
DGCA and those under him.
That can only be accomplished by public pressure.....Avcanada is hopefully a vehicle whereby we can get the process started.
At least there is the comment on record in parliament that an opposition MP questioned Preuss about contempt of Parliament...that is a good start.
I personally hope to live to see the day Preuss is unemployed.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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snaproll20
- Rank 7
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Snoopy said it right.
THERE IS NO DUE PROCESS.
For anyone who believes that an honest answer will come from TCCA head office relating to expressed legitimate concerns, I have two boxes of documents to prove you wrong.
My ultimate question would be:
"Is there something wrong with doing the moral and ethical thing when wrongdoing is proven?"
THERE IS NO DUE PROCESS.
For anyone who believes that an honest answer will come from TCCA head office relating to expressed legitimate concerns, I have two boxes of documents to prove you wrong.
My ultimate question would be:
"Is there something wrong with doing the moral and ethical thing when wrongdoing is proven?"
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Cat Driver
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It goes far beyond one individual being wronged, what we have is a moral degenerate holding the highest office in TCCA, that should concern every person in Canada." You may very well have been wronged by TC and your efforts are likley for the benefit of us all "
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
gli77: "those of us who are rationally impartial" That's a good one. 
Sounds like you are spouting the official party line.
I am not going to get into a pissing match with you. I have my opinion, you have yours. We do have freedom of speech in this country.
Sounds like you are spouting the official party line.I am not going to get into a pissing match with you. I have my opinion, you have yours. We do have freedom of speech in this country.
Rule #62 "Don't take yourself so damn seriously"
gli77 wrote:
Seriously, it seems you are trying to make a serious point. Maybe I just have not had enough coffee this morning, but could you dumb it down or clarify what exactly your point is?
And heres a bulletin for the obvious. If you dont find AvCanada entertaining, why bother coming to the site?
Are you absolutely sure of this? I have never seen anything in AvCanada's forums that would indicate the validity of the above statement.The internet is a vast resource of lies, half truths, conspiracy theories, crackpots, predators and people just out for a laugh to wind people up on a forum.
Seriously, it seems you are trying to make a serious point. Maybe I just have not had enough coffee this morning, but could you dumb it down or clarify what exactly your point is?
And heres a bulletin for the obvious. If you dont find AvCanada entertaining, why bother coming to the site?
Trey Kule my point is that the overall cause of voicing concerns about Transport Canada is fantastic and I think supported by all who read the forums on this site, and probably everyone in the industry. However the same 6 or 7 people continuously rant about individuals in Transport and incidents/accidents. It grows tiresome to read the same opnions over and over. This should be evident that there are only a few who post for this topic, and anyone who posts something in contrast is immediately dismissed.
What I originally recommended in my post was that it would be more beneficial for those of you so concerned with this cause to post the up to date findings, and reportings from the ongoing tribunals, investigations and Auditor General. I would much rather read through fatcual posts quoted from government investigators and peoples testimony than the same opinions over and over.
In response to :
"gli77 wrote:
Quote:
The internet is a vast resource of lies, half truths, conspiracy theories, crackpots, predators and people just out for a laugh to wind people up on a forum.
Are you absolutely sure of this? I have never seen anything in AvCanada's forums that would indicate the validity of the above statement. ""
Yes I am. Take a look at these recent topics
http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopi ... ght=boeing
http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopi ... ight=bo105
From the first topic someone one without knowledge would believe that Boeing aircraft are going to be exploding in midair, likely a conspiracy from Boeing. Not a good use of a government officials time to recommend reading this site.
From the second topic it's an example of a half truth about aging aircraft being unsafe. This often is played out in the media but in that forum someone pointed out that several heli logging machines, the most demanding stresses on an airframe, have high time and age is not a deciding factor in an aircraft being airworthy.
You should note that that sentence was in response to Cat Drivers post of mine from a previous topic in which I disagreed with him in refering government officials to read this site for information about the industry.
In response to Ducapo you represent the least useful in the cause of the rest. You extracted small quotes looking only at the words and not connecting them into the sentences that expressed my point. A classic example of not seeing the forest for the tree's. Or more simply you mocked my posts in an ignorant fashion causing most who read to dismiss this forum as the same old shit. Again proving my point.
What I originally recommended in my post was that it would be more beneficial for those of you so concerned with this cause to post the up to date findings, and reportings from the ongoing tribunals, investigations and Auditor General. I would much rather read through fatcual posts quoted from government investigators and peoples testimony than the same opinions over and over.
In response to :
"gli77 wrote:
Quote:
The internet is a vast resource of lies, half truths, conspiracy theories, crackpots, predators and people just out for a laugh to wind people up on a forum.
Are you absolutely sure of this? I have never seen anything in AvCanada's forums that would indicate the validity of the above statement. ""
Yes I am. Take a look at these recent topics
http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopi ... ght=boeing
http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopi ... ight=bo105
From the first topic someone one without knowledge would believe that Boeing aircraft are going to be exploding in midair, likely a conspiracy from Boeing. Not a good use of a government officials time to recommend reading this site.
From the second topic it's an example of a half truth about aging aircraft being unsafe. This often is played out in the media but in that forum someone pointed out that several heli logging machines, the most demanding stresses on an airframe, have high time and age is not a deciding factor in an aircraft being airworthy.
You should note that that sentence was in response to Cat Drivers post of mine from a previous topic in which I disagreed with him in refering government officials to read this site for information about the industry.
In response to Ducapo you represent the least useful in the cause of the rest. You extracted small quotes looking only at the words and not connecting them into the sentences that expressed my point. A classic example of not seeing the forest for the tree's. Or more simply you mocked my posts in an ignorant fashion causing most who read to dismiss this forum as the same old shit. Again proving my point.
Well gli77, I'm glad to see that you are one of the converted. I'm sure TC will be glad to count another..
I just don't get it that when people with the experience of Cat, duCapo, myself etc. all agree that there is a problem that not only should people be aware of, but there should be something done about it, we get shit on. Why is it all the newbies disagree? I guess all of us with multiple decades of experience are just stupid. Would you agree?
There is a problem in our industry and if we don't do something to change it who will? Will it be our friends at TC? I don't think so, they are putting all the responsibility on the operator, who will fight it because safety cuts into the bottom line.
We have a systemic problem that the regulator is trying to distance themselves from. For people to say that 703 operations are suddenly safe because a few operators are no longer with us, well those people have short memories. Let's remember companies like Skylink, Aquila.. anyone remember them? They were some of the bad ones 15 or 20 years ago. Bad operators keep coming into this industry, there have been many more before and after, and I'm just talking about the ones around the south coast..
We have to quit killing people, and the easiest way to do that is for all operators to charge enough to provide good training to their flight and maintenance crews, and pay them a livable wage, and then have enough left over to operate the airline by the rules..
I just don't get it that when people with the experience of Cat, duCapo, myself etc. all agree that there is a problem that not only should people be aware of, but there should be something done about it, we get shit on. Why is it all the newbies disagree? I guess all of us with multiple decades of experience are just stupid. Would you agree?
There is a problem in our industry and if we don't do something to change it who will? Will it be our friends at TC? I don't think so, they are putting all the responsibility on the operator, who will fight it because safety cuts into the bottom line.
We have a systemic problem that the regulator is trying to distance themselves from. For people to say that 703 operations are suddenly safe because a few operators are no longer with us, well those people have short memories. Let's remember companies like Skylink, Aquila.. anyone remember them? They were some of the bad ones 15 or 20 years ago. Bad operators keep coming into this industry, there have been many more before and after, and I'm just talking about the ones around the south coast..
We have to quit killing people, and the easiest way to do that is for all operators to charge enough to provide good training to their flight and maintenance crews, and pay them a livable wage, and then have enough left over to operate the airline by the rules..
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marktheone
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Finally. That is the only way to fix it.twotter wrote:We have to quit killing people, and the easiest way to do that is for all operators to charge enough to provide good training to their flight and maintenance crews, and pay them a livable wage, and then have enough left over to operate the airline by the rules..
gli77
first of all, my comment on the internet was facetous. I thought when I started the next paragraph off with seriously that might clarify it for the humorlly-challanged. My mistake I guess, but thank you for your clarification.
I cant add much to what the other posters stated except that if we dont keep up the continual pressure for change, there wont be any. And secondly, each time one of the newbies has a run in with TC they can know they are not alone and we have another convert.
And this all wont change with TC until they get their act together.
I believe we need regulations, and a regulator. But we need a regulator that we can have confidence it. One who's employees display professionalism and integrity. And one where the top management are not a bunch of double dipping ex-military , overeducated, and politicaly asture types..But what do I know for after all....Canada has one of the safest air transportation systems in the world...just ask Mr. Pruess and the regulators in NIgeria.
first of all, my comment on the internet was facetous. I thought when I started the next paragraph off with seriously that might clarify it for the humorlly-challanged. My mistake I guess, but thank you for your clarification.
I cant add much to what the other posters stated except that if we dont keep up the continual pressure for change, there wont be any. And secondly, each time one of the newbies has a run in with TC they can know they are not alone and we have another convert.
And this all wont change with TC until they get their act together.
I believe we need regulations, and a regulator. But we need a regulator that we can have confidence it. One who's employees display professionalism and integrity. And one where the top management are not a bunch of double dipping ex-military , overeducated, and politicaly asture types..But what do I know for after all....Canada has one of the safest air transportation systems in the world...just ask Mr. Pruess and the regulators in NIgeria.
Well folks I am hardly a newbie and I am not disagreeing with your thoughts, as I said over and over, just your methods on this site.
Maybe I should clarify what I mean by opinions. When I say the same opinions over and over I mean the personal attacks on Merlin Preus and TC, true or not. As well as posting articles about an incident or accident and saying "see! see how bad it is!" Being seasoned veterans that you are then you will know that often times anything to do with aviation can be reported with a slant and lapped up by those without first hand knowledge.
I know, I agree! I support change! My point is that it would be a great benefit for those of you who are deeply involved with this if you could post for the rest of us what is the current status of the investigations.
And being the seasoned veterans with decades of experience, one would think that that would come with the maturity to not ridicule and immediately defame those who post something in contrast. If you have such great involvment then educate the rest of us. And by educate I mean what is happening with the Auditor General? What is happening with the proposed changes? Are there petitions out there to get the individuals support?
Oh and sorry Treykule I actually took you seriously on the internet thing. Man is my face red, lol.
Maybe I should clarify what I mean by opinions. When I say the same opinions over and over I mean the personal attacks on Merlin Preus and TC, true or not. As well as posting articles about an incident or accident and saying "see! see how bad it is!" Being seasoned veterans that you are then you will know that often times anything to do with aviation can be reported with a slant and lapped up by those without first hand knowledge.
I know, I agree! I support change! My point is that it would be a great benefit for those of you who are deeply involved with this if you could post for the rest of us what is the current status of the investigations.
And being the seasoned veterans with decades of experience, one would think that that would come with the maturity to not ridicule and immediately defame those who post something in contrast. If you have such great involvment then educate the rest of us. And by educate I mean what is happening with the Auditor General? What is happening with the proposed changes? Are there petitions out there to get the individuals support?
Oh and sorry Treykule I actually took you seriously on the internet thing. Man is my face red, lol.
