Toronto Airways raises Instructor Rates to $70/hr :(

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 9:33 am

You think $100/hour is too much for flight instruction?

Well, let's look at what you're already paying for, as a taxpayer ....

A CF-188 instructor (eg 410 OTU) might earn close to $100k/yr these days (shot in the dark).

If he flies 200 hours per year (that number comes to mind from somewhere), he's getting paid $500/hr - by you. And you don't have a problem with that, do you? Because you're ALREADY paying it.

This non-pilot logic is hilarious ... I recall that after WWI (yes, one) the US Army Signal Corps (forerunner of USAF) asked the President for funds to purchase an additional aircraft (they only had one). And the President replied, why can't all the pilots take turns flying the one you already have?

Just hilarious ...

JohnnyHotRocks · Post by **JohnnyHotRocks** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 10:05 am

however they should not be charging more to subsidise for the hours they are not flying. That is bullshit.

...how does this make any sense? So when the local auto mechanic is sitting around for 6 hours on a slow day, he shouldn't get paid for being there?
Instructors should get paid by the flight school for showing up for work, not just for the hours they flew...and if the price of flight training needs to go up, so be it.
As for instructing being an "entry level job", that is because the pay sucks....higher pay would attract more experience, and students would benefit from it.

Vector2ILS · Post by **Vector2ILS** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 10:07 am

JohnnyHotRocks wrote:
however they should not be charging more to subsidise for the hours they are not flying. That is bullshit.
...how does this make any sense? So when the local auto mechanic is sitting around for 6 hours on a slow day, he shouldn't get paid for being there?
Instructors should get paid by the flight school for showing up for work, not just for the hours they flew...and if the price of flight training needs to go up, so be it.
As for instructing being an "entry level job", that is because the pay sucks....higher pay would attract more experience, and students would benefit from it.

agreed!

niss · Post by **niss** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 10:56 am

Thats why if the school is demanding the instructors stay the whole day they should recieve a salary, they shouldnt charge extra to cover the time they dont work.

And a CF-188 Instructor doesnt wait around all day waiting for students, there are other things they do, being in the CF is the job.

How much is a degreee again? Maybe a bit more than that. I think 35K is resonable for a CPL. You could do the calculations for IFR Group 1 too included in the 200 hrs and it would bring you up to maybe 40K? That's pretty good I think....

An additional 5K for the IFR would be at the current rate, not at your proposed rate.

As for instructing being an "entry level job", that is because the pay sucks....higher pay would attract more experience, and students would benefit from it.

A class 4 is an entry level position, not because of the payscale, but because that is what it is. A Class 2 and 1 should earn conciderably more, but for a 4 and 3 doing ab initio lets get real. We are not talking about some old salty guy who flew in the war, doing specialized training. These are guys with a fresh class 4 who are trying to build time to jump to something better, and their students are trying to get their Private Pilots License.

With that attitude if a school only hase a handfull of students they should charge $400/hr just to make money. How many customers do you think you will have?

Pay instructors what they are worth, no more no less. Dont rape the students because an instructor only works 500 a year.

Get instructors to book their own times instead of waiting around at the airport, if they wait all day get them to do something and pay them a salary. Most instructors need to do something to make their life better (get a second job, etc) than bitch about how much it sucks.

Besides how many people out there want to be a career instructor? Very few, its a stepping stone for most people.

Its a backwards mentality when the cost of the instructor is more than the cost to operate the a/c.

In the end it will be the consumer to decide, not the instructors.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 11:22 am

Instructors are not worth $100/hr, just because they only work 500 a year.

Depends on the quality of instructor.

I have no difficulty charging 250 Euro ( $383.00 Canadian ) per flight hour for my time. Also the client pays " ALL " my daily expenses for every day I am employed.

So Niss can you explian why my clients never complain about my rates?

Can anyone here give me one argument against allowing anyone licensed to teach flying not being allowed to open a flight training business without having the millstone of applying for and maintaining the Canadian FTU-OC?

niss · Post by **niss** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 11:28 am

Cat,

You are leaving pleanty out,

Do you bring the a/c, is that included in the price, what are you training on, is it ab initio training, etc?

200hr Wonder · Post by **200hr Wonder** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 11:44 am

I think that is great provided that the instructor gets all $10 not the school.

mcrit · Post by **mcrit** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 11:46 am

Hi Niss:
It's simple supply and demand. Something is worth what people are willing to pay for it. Right now there is a shortage of instructors, so, if you want one you have to pay more, if you can't/won't , somebody else is. I'm using 'you' in the general sense here, so I'm not trying to pick on specificaly on Niss. Not to talk down to you Niss, but, you ought to try instructing for a few years before you offer an opinion on what an instructor is worth. Let's face it, what someone is worth and what they get paid don't always match up.

l_reason · Post by **l_reason** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 11:50 am

The way I see it IF the school can get some instructors to do this as a carer the students will be much farter ahead. You can pay $50-$60 and hour for a class 4 and do 50 hours of dual. Or pay $70-$80 for an instructor that has 1000 hours of teaching behind him and only have to do 35 hours dual.

Niss, what is a better deal? Pay Cat or Hedley (or any of the other high time instructors on here) $70-80 per hour OR pay a 250 hour class 4 $50 hour.

I’d bet with the better instructor you would land up with a cheaper licence.

To bring it back to your mechanic thing. You can pay me (backyard mechanic) ($30/hr) to F*%K around with the carb tuning of a street rod and I’ll get it right after a while. Or you can pay a pro ($70/hr) and it will get done right, in far less time.

niss · Post by **niss** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 12:13 pm

l_reason wrote:The way I see it IF the school can get some instructors to do this as a carer the students will be much farter ahead. You can pay $50-$60 and hour for a class 4 and do 50 hours of dual. Or pay $70-$80 for an instructor that has 1000 hours of teaching behind him and only have to do 35 hours dual.

Niss, what is a better deal? Pay Cat or Hedley (or any of the other high time instructors on here) $70-80 per hour OR pay a 250 hour class 4 $50 hour.

I’d bet with the better instructor you would land up with a cheaper licence.

To bring it back to your mechanic thing. You can pay me (backyard mechanic) ($30/hr) to F*%K around with the carb tuning of a street rod and I’ll get it right after a while. Or you can pay a pro ($70/hr) and it will get done right, in far less time.

Thats not exactly a fair statement, while i would certainly want a better and more experienced instructor we have to be fair, class 4s with 250hrs arent killing students left right and center. There are pleanty of decent low time instructors who are there to build hours and jump ship.

If it turns out that the instructor is actually worth it then no problem, i endorse paying people what they are worth. I do not endorse artifically increasing the rate because the instructor only works so many hours.

xsbank · Post by **xsbank** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 12:19 pm

$50/hour is about $105,000 per year, which seems fair. GS and flight, 8 hour day.

RVR6000 · Post by **RVR6000** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 12:34 pm

They increased instructors pay by $10 but are charging customers $20 more. This doesn't seem right.

A mechanic rate in Toronto at any major dealership is $85-95 /hr, even small garages charge atleast $65-$80.

kzcvtm · Post by **kzcvtm** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 2:39 pm

RVR6000,

Finally someone got to the crux of the matter....Isn't it a little interesting that the instructor only gets half of the increase? Why not all the increase?

The FTU isn't providing anything extra for the student other than raising the rate. Just like fuel....as soon as gas hit $1.30 they added a fuel surcharge. Did they remove the surgcharge when fuel dropped? No.

IMHO, the instructor should get the whole increase, not just half of it.

multiprop · Post by **multiprop** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 2:59 pm

Why are you guys complaining? I mean come on! For years instructors have been complaining that they never get paid enough and now TAL wants so set an industry standard. That is damn good! Instructors really have a dangerous job so why don't they get rewarded for what they do! I think it's really great that the instructor will get the full $10 instead of the school. I mean come on if a call centre employee can make $30K/yr and a instructor makes less than $20K/yr something has been and is wrong. Most people that start training think that the hourly instructor rate goes entirely to the instructor - ya right! We all wish that was the case. Nevertheless the students soon understand that this is not the case. Overall this is the best thing that has happened to the flight training industry. Times are a changing and changing for the better.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 3:02 pm

In my opinion there should be no FTU period, then the instructor would make a living.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 3:04 pm

" Instructors really have a dangerous job so why don't they get rewarded for what they do! "

Give me a break, dangerous?

multiprop · Post by **multiprop** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 3:08 pm

Hey Cat driver......it is dangerous....you got a problem with that? Or what do you consider dangerous? Being in the armed forces?

wirez · Post by **wirez** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 3:09 pm

Lets be clear, I'm not opposed to instructors getting a raise, I know very well how little they make and recognize that they need it. Still $70/hr is a hard pill for students to swallow, and its not like the instructors will be making $70/hr or anything close to that. I find the increase astronomical compared to prices elsewhere. I guess if the increase drives away students that will also solve their instructor shortage.

Crazymax · Post by **Crazymax** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 3:09 pm

multiprop wrote:Hey Cat driver......it is dangerous....you got a problem with that? Or what do you consider dangerous? Being in the armed forces?

Instructing is not dangerous if the instructor knows what he's doing. Throughout ground briefings with a confirmation of the knowledge/understanding of the student won't put your life on the line....

If you think instructing is dangerous, maybe you shouldn't do that.

Max

multiprop · Post by **multiprop** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 3:13 pm

As par ususal everything gets blown out of context. So it must be that you never did instruct since if you did you would know the stupid things that students can do. It does not matter how much ground prep you give a student they can still kill you.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 3:23 pm

Hey Cat driver......it is dangerous....you got a problem with that?

Yes I have a problem with anyone claiming that instructing is dangerous....unless you consider all flying dangerous and then I guess you sort of have a point.

However when compared to the rest of aviation instructing is one of the safest jobs one can have.

Unless of course you personally feel it is dangerous then of course I would have to agree it is dangerous for you, but for me personally I find instructing to be about the safest part of aviation....

Do you have a problem with that?

RVR6000 · Post by **RVR6000** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 3:37 pm

Is the rate for class 1 the same, or is that another $10-$15 on top of $70.

C-GPFG · Post by **C-GPFG** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 3:48 pm

$30/hr for Class 4's is doing well. I'm happy for them.

mcrit · Post by **mcrit** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 3:49 pm

Its a backwards mentality when the cost of the instructor is more than the cost to operate the a/c.

Hey Niss, how much do you think it costs to run a commercial a/c? Fact is that FTUs don't make any real money on the a/c rental. The only profit is in charging for the instructor.

N2 · Post by N2 » Wed Apr 18, 2007 4:53 pm

Well now we just sit back and watch to see if this has a ripple effect.