My last post about Cat's "slam dunk" got me thinking......how many of us actually practice "outside the box"?? ie; Yes, every manual has emergency proceedures for each A/C that I assume everyone is up to speed on.
Question is - do we practice stuff that they don't write in manuals?? For example downwind landings? I've had cause to "dead stick" with lots of wind up the pipe with no other option....would it have been successful if I hadn't explored both my own and the aircrafts response and capabilties prior to?
I'm not advocating becoming a test pilot, however I do find value in trying different sheit on dead legs non-pax situations.....flying low level water routes is another.
Anyhoo - maybe I'm way off base here.....
Pushing limits - yours and your A/C
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oldenoughtoknowbetter
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Cat Driver
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Not at all you are completely correct.Anyhoo - maybe I'm way off base here.....
Training for the unexpected may one day make the difference between living and dying.
Here is another important skill that I have been teaching and advocating for over forty years.
Being profficient in landing with no outside reference when doing IFR practice flights....
..it's easy to set up and very safe with a two crew operation.
One pilot blocks the foward vision in the windshield and flys the ILS to touch down while the safety pilot makes sure the airplane does not touch down off the runway.
The slam dunk is as safe as a 400 fpm rate of descent as long as you know where the fu.kin thing " is " and where " it is going " and when to arrest the high rate of descent.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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Cat Driver
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You can read forever and you will not be profficient at doing any manouver or exercise such as the zero zero touch down on instruments.My advice is to read and learn. Have it in the back of your mind for when you'll need it. Don't be foolish and practice it if it's unsafe... Learn from other people's mistake, not yours.
There is safest way to learn is to take training from organizations or individuals who specalize in the envelope of flight you wish to become more profficient in.
However there are many skills that you can learn without going to a specialized school.
You are 100% correct for some skills self taught is a high risk way to learn.
Last edited by Cat Driver on Mon Apr 23, 2007 3:59 pm, edited 3 times in total.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
If you're flying an ILS right to touchdown, how do you know when to arrest the 3 degree slope descent (which could be around 400-600FPM)?
With glassy water landings I've always tried to keep my rate of descent below 200FPM and even then sometimes hit a little harder than normal. Ground effect does slow it down a bit and you can feel it.
With glassy water landings I've always tried to keep my rate of descent below 200FPM and even then sometimes hit a little harder than normal. Ground effect does slow it down a bit and you can feel it.
oldenoughtoknowbetter, are you "youngenoughtodoitanyways" ? 
I agree with you. At times, I will push myself and my aircraft to the "limits" of things. Although I cant say I've attempted a downwind landing, it is something on the to-do list at some point.
While it is very important to read about someone else's mistakes rather than experience them firsthand, it is still important to know where your own self limits are with regards to yourself and your aircraft. Take for example the message passed on by Harrison Ford in 'K19: The Widowmaker' about finding the edge. I think thats important. Because someday, something will happen to one of us, and we'll want to be as best prepared as we can be.
I agree with you. At times, I will push myself and my aircraft to the "limits" of things. Although I cant say I've attempted a downwind landing, it is something on the to-do list at some point.
While it is very important to read about someone else's mistakes rather than experience them firsthand, it is still important to know where your own self limits are with regards to yourself and your aircraft. Take for example the message passed on by Harrison Ford in 'K19: The Widowmaker' about finding the edge. I think thats important. Because someday, something will happen to one of us, and we'll want to be as best prepared as we can be.
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oldenoughtoknowbetter
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Last edited by oldenoughtoknowbetter on Sun Jan 13, 2008 12:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Cat Driver
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When practicing zero zero landings you arrest your rate of descent prior to crossing the threshold and smoothly assume the glassy water landing attitude and aim for around 200 feet a minute.
Ground effect will reduce that rate prior to touch down.
It is not any different than landing on glassy water except you must hold the center line using the localizer.
As to using instruments for glassy water landings, hell we do it all the time on the PBY the pilot flying is flying with reference to instruments only and the PNF is looking outside for anything in the landing path and any unusual deviation from a stabalized approach. As well the PNF cross checks rate of descent / attitude/ and airspeed.
Maybe I'm doing something unsafe and just plain wrong?
Ground effect will reduce that rate prior to touch down.
It is not any different than landing on glassy water except you must hold the center line using the localizer.
As to using instruments for glassy water landings, hell we do it all the time on the PBY the pilot flying is flying with reference to instruments only and the PNF is looking outside for anything in the landing path and any unusual deviation from a stabalized approach. As well the PNF cross checks rate of descent / attitude/ and airspeed.
Maybe I'm doing something unsafe and just plain wrong?
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
This is a tough one, and it's impossible to have a single, simple answer for what is acceptable and what isn't. We've all pushed our limits occasionally either by accident or deliberately. It's one of the ways we gain experience. After all, you can't know what your limit is unless you've been there. But how do you draw the line between what is reasonable and what is foolish? I think if you are contemplating something that is out of limits for the aircraft you should do some rethinking and leave it to the Bob Hoover's. If it's something that sounds reasonable but maybe a little beyond your personal limits then a competent safety pilot/instructor should take care of your worries.
When I first started my instructor talked me down to a blind landing and rollout as if I were doing a PAR, but he was right there to take over if necessary and it was probably safer than a students first landing. Great confidence booster too.
When I first started my instructor talked me down to a blind landing and rollout as if I were doing a PAR, but he was right there to take over if necessary and it was probably safer than a students first landing. Great confidence booster too.
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Gurundu the Rat
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Last guy that did that to me turned out to be practicing for his death. He was good at it and had lots of experience (7000 hours). When the weather craps out the temptation to just go for it becomes hard to resist. Got him killed , crippled his FO and totaled a brand new Beech 1900D (Regionnair, 12 Aug 1999 CYZV). Don't get me wrong, i'm all for pushing the limits, but landing blind is just about the stupidest thing you can do.Training for the unexpected may one day make the difference between living and dying.
Here is another important skill that I have been teaching and advocating for over forty years.
Being profficient in landing with no outside reference when doing IFR practice flights....
GTR
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Cat Driver
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You really can not blame knowing how to do something as reason to do it.Last guy that did that to me turned out to be practicing for his death. He was good at it and had lots of experience (7000 hours). When the weather craps out the temptation to just go for it becomes hard to resist. Got him killed , crippled his FO and totaled a brand new Beech 1900D (Regionnair, 12 Aug 1999 CYZV).
Don't get me wrong, i'm all for pushing the limits, but landing blind is just about the stupidest thing you can do.
Knowing how to land in zero zero conditions can make the difference between a safe landing and a crash should you ever get in a situation where there is no other option.
Just because you know how to do something does not mean you should unless there is no other option....
I first learned how to do this in the early sixties in a Grand Commander from one of the best pilots I ever flew with.
Somehow I have managed to resist using the skill when it is below limits so it has not been detrimental to know how.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
