we all saw it!

[WJ700]

edit.

[wrc]

This entire thread is disturbing on many levels.

[arewethereyet]

guys.. its not about standing water or xwind limitations. its not about having a hole on the radar. its not about down the pipe. its about taking a chance with mother nature. it was huge winds, huge rain, lightning, winds off the runway by 40 degrees. a contaminated runway. and a chance of..

windshear, hail, engine out, lightning(Structural damage is possible.) downbursts, severe turbulence(weather radar is not able to detect turbulence)...

when you fly through a cell like that with increased performance, you can only assume on the other side there will be a big decrease. i guess the guys knew exactly where that was. and so they must have been safe to go. and by the way have a look below.. remember this was in knots!!

270 @40g54 54kts is 62 mph

Beaufort Wind Scale
Windspeed
in MPH Description - Visible Condition
0 Calm smoke rises vertically
1 - 4 Light air direction of wind shown by smoke but not by wind vanes
4 - 7 Light breeze wind felt on face; leaves rustle; ordinary wind vane moved by wind
8 - 12 Gentle breeze leaves and small twigs in constant motion; wind extends light flag
13 - 18 Moderate breeze raises dust and loose paper; small branches are moved
19 - 24 Fresh breeze small trees in leaf begin to sway; crested wavelets form on inland water
25 - 31 Strong breeze large branches in motion; telephone wires whistle; umbrellas used with difficulty
32 - 38 Moderate gale whole trees in motion; inconvenience in walking against wind
39 - 46 Fresh gale breaks twigs off trees; generally impedes progress
47 - 54 Strong gale slight structural damage occurs; chimney pots and slates removed
55 - 63 Whole gale trees uprooted; considerable structural damage occurs
64 - 72 Storm very rarely experienced; accompanied by widespread damage
73+ Hurricane devastation occurs

[jjj]

arewethereyet,

We've been at this all day.

You won't find vindication here, especially with a Beaufort Wind Scale.

It is good to know that when a fresh breeze causes the small leafed trees to sway beyond the clearway and the wavelets are cresting on the nearby water - I must heed the direction of the wind as it may approach my crosswind limit.

The wind continues to howl - my umbrella, my umbrella!!!!! I am without protection from the elements as my umbrella no longer functions easily.

A twig has broken - run for shelter - Armageddon is upon us in a hail of aircraft grade aluminum.

I am safe inside the FBO. I cast away my Boeing manuals and caress my precious Beaufort Scale - precious. I am safe to ride the circuit again tomorrow when the calm smoke rises vertically.

@#$! Off.



jjj

[arewethereyet]

JJJ .. you really are a shithead.. nuff said!

[Rebel]

WJ700

Good Morning I’m in a rush so will give you my opinion off the top of my head. If I recall correctly aircraft limitations are largely determined by computer simulation and then verified in the aircraft.

The test pilots are using brand new airplanes with brand new rubber under ideal controlled conditions. Unfortunately in time the aircraft get bend and twisted and the rubber get worn so for a number of reasons a fudge factor is applied to the limitations. Did I forget to mention test pilots are supposedly more skilled then line pilots in the determination of aircraft limitations?

Thunderstorms are the wild card. What I try and do if at all possible during thunderstorm activity is point my radar is the general direction of the storm activity that’s relative to my departure path. I also listen out on the departure frequency so that by the time I get to the launch point I have a battle plan in place. I hate surprises in situations like this so I don’t have a problem asking departure for their opinion before I launch.

Oh even though the PIC may have more experience any FO worth their salt should not sit nervously back without expressing their concern as this is a crew effort...

Cheers

[WJ700]

Excellent post rebel, I agree. However, Boeing is very specific to state that a crosswind is max demonstrated, as to the test day, and not a limitation. The crosswind mentioned in this thread is well within that Boeing demonstrated wind, the crosswind with standing water limitaton is within the WestJet recommended limit. The rest of the details I don't know about and can't cast an opinion on. If there was known wind shere reported, then the crew in this case has a problem.

[arewethereyet]

the storm was actually right over the runway. and no planes were landing. you guys make good points. however, all three of us in the cockpit would NEVER have left being right in the middle of it. And who ever said your crazy to them on 118.7 felt the same. Im glad it worked out.

[mammo]

Nice post with armchair quarterbacking.

1. the weather time-you have listed as 232046Z? According to WJ website, Flt 654 is scheduled to depart at 1630 local or 2030Z. According to Flight Explorer it showed that flight left 4 minutes early so that makes 1626 or 2026Z. On Flightaware.com it showed that flight departing at 1614 or 2014Z. If these times are correct then your weather is for "after they left"-correct??

2. "3" of you in the cockpit? What are you flying a junkpile 727 and you are the piano player? Or are you the wannabe Private Pilot F/A riding jumpseat with The Red Team? Or Daddy's little boy in the flight deck at the red team since you just got on with Jazz out of flight school?

At least show us the weather at the actual time WJ took off-not something irrelevant...

[727driver]

You got a problem with the 27 buddy. The 727 may be old but she still is one of the best airplanes that ever rolled off the boeing assembly floor both in looks and performance. Lets see how many plastic busses can make it to a 30 to40 year service record. The fact that these aircraft are as old as they are and still earning their keep is a testiment to how great they are.

[Schlem]

FWIW the ATC recording I listened to was the 23 April 2030-2100 tape and the WS654 departure was well into it.

http://www.liveatc.net/archive.php Start listening at the 9:40 mark. Nice image of the weather system in the area too.

[arewethereyet]

there were quite a few airways that were closed due to the weather..
so thats is why we were all sitting there waiting for it to pass.

anyhow.. the 727 rules. its funny how so many on this forum can be so sarcastic and rude. including myself! this is a serious matter. it doesnt matter what inventory i fly. or if i was even flying. its my opinion im sharing. is'nt that what this forum is about. or do you want to hear just the good stuff?

[WJ700]

Yes... if we're going to start knocking the 727, its getting personal. I've enjoyed many blood shot eyes in that bird

[bmc]

there were quite a few airways that were closed due to the weather..
so thats is why we were all sitting there waiting for it to pass.

anyhow.. the 727 rules. its funny how so many on this forum can be so sarcastic and rude. including myself! this is a serious matter. it doesnt matter what inventory i fly. or if i was even flying. its my opinion im sharing. is'nt that what this forum is about. or do you want to hear just the good stuff?

This is an interesting post from the standpoint of what does one do with the information. Do we treat this website like a pub and bitch and complain or do we actually report it? Good questions. There's an element of professional courtesy amongst pilots: better to haul the guy outside and bitch slap him for a potential bad call, than to call him onto the carpet.

Hopefully, the crew in question learned something from that flight, whether out of fear or a better understanding about what the weather, wet runway, take off weight, performance charts etc say and what it really feels like at the time.

I was with an airline that let a 3,000 hr ttl time pilot go left seat on an A320. His PIC ttl time was 86. He was famous for hot dogging, yet no one reported him. One night, he drove a perfectly good A320, on a clear night, into 18 feet of water killing 146 people. Should someone have spoken up before hand? Should the brotherhood of pilots that, after the fact said they could see it coming, done something?

This is beyond red, WS, B727's or 172's. It's about taking a narrow path and who wants to go down it. And who should go down it.

The numbers may have defended it and clearly, nothing happened. If a jet gets pranged, caused by pilot error and its the crew in question, we think back to this thread, just how professional are you for not stepping forward to do something about it? I really don't have an answer.

[invertedattitude]

That's a good post BMC.

I want to pass on my thoughts on the OTP comments.

While everyone knows WestJet is well, at times quite committed to their OTP, I don't think any pilot is going to knowingly risk life and limb to make a gate time.

After listening to the ATC recording it seems to me that planes were landing and/or on approach at the time of their departure, it's not as if the airport was at a standstill and WestJet trods along passes everyone on the taxiways and blasts off, I also heard no "You're crazy" but that could have been missed by other freq changes.

I've personally seen 727's 737's operate in winds that strong before, is it possible? Obviously, all the airplanes got down in one piece, well except a 727 which took out a few runway lights and put a whole in the wingtip, but that's another story.

If there had have been windshear reported, I would think the Tower controller if he knew about it would have included it in his "I say again the winds are such and such degrees at stupid speeds"

Playing the devils advocate however, just because there hadn't been doesn't mean there wasn't going to be, there was a 14 knot speed increase in wind gusts in a short period of time, and WJA was the first plane to depart into it, so in that regard they were obviously launching into different weather than previous flights.

One pilot put it best on approach, the controller said "Winds 240 at 33 gusting to 40" he responded "Well... that's sporting!"

[ishouldknowbetter]

I deleted my first post when this thing turned into a "koolaid" fest but now that things have returned to civility, I will try to dispell a little bit of the speculation. While live atc is good, it does not caputure all communications therefore there were things said that didn't make it to their recordings.

The airport was quite active as the line of weather approached. Flights were departing and arriving and the winds were variable but had been gusting to 45kts prior to the weather becoming a visual concern.

I heard no reports of windshear prior to the WJ departure nor after they departed. While they were on the takeoff roll, someone did transmit "crazy" as the original poster suggested.

We were lined up 40% off runway alignment to observe the wx radar. From what we could see, our radar returns showed a narrowing of the line of weather approaching the airport. the 30-40dBZ returns were about 10 miles across with lesser returns surrounding it. There were some turbulence shadows showing on the back and northerly side of the cell. That coupled with our nexrad overlay indicated no shadowing or attenuation.

The rain was visibly about mid-runway on 23 when the controller issued his wind and takeoff clearance to WJ. WJ also had a clearance allowing an immediate turn away from the wx. Being that the peak gusts were reported earlier at 45kts, I would speculate the repeated wind was to emphasise an increase in velocity. Regardless, a jump from 45-56 doesn't seem that significant when everyone ahead has been departing without comment.

I mentioned in my previous post that it is often difficult to be the first to decline a landing or takeoff due to herd mentality. Once someone makes that call, the testosterone effect subsides and most often everyone agrees to wait.

My FO and I had made that decision while WJ was on the roll and thus declined to depart. After the controller made his descriptive transmission, there were no further requests to depart.

As can be heard on live atc, the "herd mentality" also took place on approach with several aircraft breaking off the approach in close succession.

I am not new to this game by any means and I have departed in wx I wish I hadn't over the years. What was I to do but follow the herd??

Being that the increase performance gust front had already made the button of the runway, my expectations were to encounter the opposite on departure. This is where the WJ crew and mine differred in opinion. That being said, they were the only ones looking at the departure path when they took off. They were obviously happy enough with what they saw they were not disuaded. I on the other hand, am a little more conservative and decided to wait it out.

We did encounter both a significant airspeed hesitation at Vr and a loss of 20kts at 200 ft AGL. Pretty much what one could expect.

Who was right? Both outcomes were successful. I don't believe there is an answer as their NG Boeing is not my Falconjet. My self imposed limits and preferrences are different than theirs. In my judgement, it was not safe nor prudent for us. Obviously it was both for the WJ crew. I don't want this to sound as though we made all the right decisions and WJ made the wrong ones. That is not the case at all. It is just that mine was better for me.

My only real lesson for the less experienced from this would be to think and act for yourself. Don't blindly follow the herd. By the time you make Captain at any airline, you have the skills, training and experience to handle an aircraft. Just apply restraint where it should be and don't give in to pressures to go whether they be company or self imposed.

Just my .02

[Flightlevels]

We were flying into yyz at that time from YUL. We were slowed by atc then given the nod to come in as the red alert was on. The winds were as mentioned above and experienced no significant loss or gain with our airspeed. The front was moving fast as well. (approx 40 knts from the sigmet) tops were only around 30,000. Yes there were the usual reports of airspeed loss and gains, as one would expect. Our doppler system never warned of any shear. Just my landing perspective.

[Just another driver]

Personally I would not have departed. I was not there or even in the area, but with that kind of weather reported, I would have waited. why risk it? Wait a few mins and then go.
Many have died to make up the rules we follow. And some times following the herd is not a bad thing if the herd is doing the safest action. At least you'll be backed up for your decission.
My 2 cents.

[EyeDeeOt]

I was the first A/C holding short, after the Falcon holding in postion...The thoughts are good for WJ making it out...But if it was their day to have a engine cut, reject or any other Oh Crap...well, it would really have been their day.

We were not going anywhere and I only had to hold for 30 minutes... I was at the airport the day Air France ran off, and the cell was not as severe.

[Rockie]

I deleted my first post when this thing turned into a "koolaid" fest but now that things have returned to civility, I will try to dispell a little bit of the speculation. While live atc is good, it does not caputure all communications therefore there were things said that didn't make it to their recordings.

The airport was quite active as the line of weather approached. Flights were departing and arriving and the winds were variable but had been gusting to 45kts prior to the weather becoming a visual concern.

I heard no reports of windshear prior to the WJ departure nor after they departed. While they were on the takeoff roll, someone did transmit "crazy" as the original poster suggested.

We were lined up 40% off runway alignment to observe the wx radar. From what we could see, our radar returns showed a narrowing of the line of weather approaching the airport. the 30-40dBZ returns were about 10 miles across with lesser returns surrounding it. There were some turbulence shadows showing on the back and northerly side of the cell. That coupled with our nexrad overlay indicated no shadowing or attenuation.

The rain was visibly about mid-runway on 23 when the controller issued his wind and takeoff clearance to WJ. WJ also had a clearance allowing an immediate turn away from the wx. Being that the peak gusts were reported earlier at 45kts, I would speculate the repeated wind was to emphasise an increase in velocity. Regardless, a jump from 45-56 doesn't seem that significant when everyone ahead has been departing without comment.

I mentioned in my previous post that it is often difficult to be the first to decline a landing or takeoff due to herd mentality. Once someone makes that call, the testosterone effect subsides and most often everyone agrees to wait.

My FO and I had made that decision while WJ was on the roll and thus declined to depart. After the controller made his descriptive transmission, there were no further requests to depart.

As can be heard on live atc, the "herd mentality" also took place on approach with several aircraft breaking off the approach in close succession.

I am not new to this game by any means and I have departed in wx I wish I hadn't over the years. What was I to do but follow the herd??

Being that the increase performance gust front had already made the button of the runway, my expectations were to encounter the opposite on departure. This is where the WJ crew and mine differred in opinion. That being said, they were the only ones looking at the departure path when they took off. They were obviously happy enough with what they saw they were not disuaded. I on the other hand, am a little more conservative and decided to wait it out.

We did encounter both a significant airspeed hesitation at Vr and a loss of 20kts at 200 ft AGL. Pretty much what one could expect.

Who was right? Both outcomes were successful. I don't believe there is an answer as their NG Boeing is not my Falconjet. My self imposed limits and preferrences are different than theirs. In my judgement, it was not safe nor prudent for us. Obviously it was both for the WJ crew. I don't want this to sound as though we made all the right decisions and WJ made the wrong ones. That is not the case at all. It is just that mine was better for me.

My only real lesson for the less experienced from this would be to think and act for yourself. Don't blindly follow the herd. By the time you make Captain at any airline, you have the skills, training and experience to handle an aircraft. Just apply restraint where it should be and don't give in to pressures to go whether they be company or self imposed.

Just my .02

Excellent post. Often times we sit there squirming in our seats with our finger on the stop button, and all it takes is for one smart guy to actually push it for us all to feel better. That smart guy has done a lot of people a favour.