Ontario Restricting CPL instruction

[Hedley]

I just sent Donna the following email. Please note her email address, and please send her your thoughts:

-- cut --

From: Andrew Boyd acboyd@gmail.com
To: "Vogel, Donna (TCU)" Donna.vogel@ontario.ca

Donna:

Clearly you did not understand the topics covered in our
phone conversation.

As I patiently explained to you, our tiny "mom & pop"
non-profit FTU at Smiths Falls, with our 2 aircraft, is
not by ANY wild stretch of anyone's imagination, a
"vocational college".

We do NOT take student's money "on account". If you wish
to look at our accounts receivables, you can clearly see that
if anything, it is the other way 'round!

We are already heavily regulated by Transport Canada Aviation,
and subsist on the barest of margins, usually with the benefit
of volunteer labour.

If you insist on adding yet another layer of expensive regulation
to small FTU's in Ontario, all you will accomplish is putting us all out
of business, to the detriment of our students. Our tiny volunteer
organization cannot hope to possibly comply with your requirements
for colleges.

It should be blindingly obvious that an exemption is needed for
small FTU's which do NOT take money on account.

This is pretty simple to understand.

I do not understand why you desire to shut us down. I was told
that if we do not comply with your legislation, you will put me in
jail.

Given the context of recent events in Smiths Falls, with the
Rideau Regional Hospital being shut down, and Hershey's
closing, this latest attempt by Toronto to close down our
FTU does make one wonder if there is in fact any adult
supervision in Toronto.

Andrew Boyd
CFI, Smiths Falls Flying Club

[trey kule]

Hedley I hope it works for you. I dont have alot of faith in civil servants listening to anybody other than themselves.

I took a much more positive tone in my fax. I do hope my spelling and grammar was OK though. Is dumb bitch hyphenated?

[Hedley]

Thx TK. You can be the "good cop"

[trey kule]

Anyone get a reply from Ms. Vogel?

I never even got acknoledgement of my fax.

It has to be great to be a civil servant these days.

[Aeros]

Here are the email addresses for which you were looking:

{1} The Hon Lawrence Cannon.
Minister of Transport.
Tower C 330 Sparks St
Ottawa, Ont.
K1A0N5
Cannon.L@parl.gc.ca

{2} The Hon. Christopher Bentley.
Minister of Training, Colleges and Universities.
900 Bay St, 3rd Floor, Mowat Block
Toronto, Ont M7A1L2
cbentley.mpp.co@liberal.ola.org
cbentley.mpp@liberal.ola.org

{3}Hon Michael Bryant
Ministry of the Attorney General
720 Bay St, 11th Floor
Toronto, Ont M5G 2K1
mbryant.mpp.co@liberal.ola.org
mbryant.mpp@liberal.ola.org

{4} Hon Robert D Nicholson
Minister of Justice, Attorney General
House of Commons
Ottawa, Ont.
K1A0A6
Nicholson.R@parl.gc.ca


Clunckdriver -- Let me know what I should do (other than writing the nasty emails to the above folks -- done) as an instructor that, while now working out in "industry", still does some freelance work on the side. As one of the guys that "cut my teeth" at the old Mom and Pop outfits it's the least that I could (should) do......

[trey kule]

Clunkdriver wrote:

Just so you know we have already started talking to an airport in PQ as a fall back position should we not prevail in this fight

Code: Select all

You have you compass set wrong.  Go West.  Way west.  Money, people, and the right attitude.

I sent emails.  Hope it helps.

As to civil disobedience.  Not sure it will work in Canada.  government will just pick out a sacrificial lamb, roast them publically, and all the other sheep will fall into line.  I am sometimes embarrassed to admit I am Canadian, but this unfortunately,is the reality.

Lastly, is there any legal option available for denying you the right to earn a living (charter argument, I believe).  It will bring all the facts to light.

My thoughts.  Again, good luck.

[l_reason]

I had nothing ethos to do this morning… I called and the kind lady on the phone said “I dont know where you people get this $10,000 fee cost from.” I asked them if they would be able to email me as much information as they could on the new act regarding flight training. She said I could email them with specific questions I have to this address. privatecareercollagesact@ontario.ca How abut we send a “few” questions their way, fill their inbox and keep them busy responding.



Donna Vogel
Senior Policy Adviser
Private Institutions Branch
Ministry of Training, Colleges and Universities
ph. 416 325 6266
fax. 416 314 0499
privatecareercollagesact@ontario.ca

[Ronner]

I was talking to someone today about the new act and I specifically asked him about this fee that flight schools would have to pay. He indicated to me that’s school have to post a $30,000 bond one time and a further 500$ per student, as well no interest is paid on the bond.

Has anyone else heard anything along these lines that could confirm this?

[152driver]

This grinds my gears. I used to run a flight school and I also used to live in Ont. so I feel the pain of you operators.

I figure that if enough of you can get together and fight those pricks in high places then maybe you can get somewhere. I especially like how they think that they can get into a business that is already regulated on the Federal level. Last I checked there wasnt such a thing as an Ontario pilot licence. Wow, can you imagine the conversion exams to move accross the country?

Does the new legislation apply to driving schools?

[bluenote]

If this goes through despite the fight against it, do you think flight schools will close and people like flight instructors will also lose their jobs? I am thinking about getting a flight instructor rating in Southern Ontario and was wondering if it is the right thing to do right now or wait what happens to this new law.

Any suggestions?

[152driver]

Sadly, I think it would turn some people away from commercial, however those that really want it will relocate or travel to a big school that can afford the fees.

As I said in my previous post, I used to own a small school, and it would anger me to see the government basically shut these guys down.

[. .]

I've moved this into the general forum. Makes an interesting read for those who wouldn't normally stray into that forum.

[Conquest Driver]

I think it's time for a trip off to court.

I'm not a Lawyer but I have a feeling that Aviation is federal resposibility and authority "end of discussion". How can a province regulate something they have no authority over??

Good luck on all of this.

[2R]

Was there not a big court case years ago about who can designate land use for airports ??? The end result was that it was a federal responsablity.
Some municipalities spent a lot of tax money losing that fight .The more the lawyers bluster outside the court the weaker their game inside the court usually is.
If the Ontario government is making loud noises on this my guess is that is because they know they will get their bottoms smacked in court.

The most important thing is to find out WHO made these decisions and go after them .Take the political fight to them .Make them aware of your displeasure.Make it political do not let them make quite decisions in private .Name names do not let them hide behind closed doors make the fight as public as you can .When you shake the tree sometimes the monkees fall out ,sometimes the fruit that falls can be used in the next election against those who acted against your interests .

[Stan_Cooper]

Well I jumped on the bandwagon. I sent my email to privatecareercollegesact@ontario.ca, and to Hon. Chris Bentley the Minister of Training Colleges and Universities at cbentley.mpp.co@liberal.ola.org. Please note that the email address in an above post is incorrect; colleges is not spelt 'collages'. Unless you're putting a bunch of pictures together...

Dear Minister Bentley:

I hope that I am not too late in the public consultation process for my voice to contribute to change.

It has come to my attention through an aviation industry public website that the MTCU plans to participate in oversight of all Flight Training Units in Ontario. Although an FTU which offers Commercial Pilot Licence training may meet the definition of providing a vocational program, I strongly urge the minister to exempt FTUs from provincial requirements.

Flight Training in Canada is overseen by Transport Canada. All FTUs are subject to inspections and audits by TC. All flight instructors must be examined by TC both initially, and periodically for renewal of the instructor qualification. Transport Canada's monitoring of flight instructors is much more thorough than the MTCU monitors instructors in colleges of applied arts and technology, or universities.

I understand the desire of the ministry to ensure that all vocational training in Ontario meets a minimum standard. As a citizen of Ontario, I am concerned that the duplication of the efforts of TC and MTCU will result in needless waste. As a professional pilot, I am concerned that MTCU's potential involvement in flight training will place undue burden on FTUs. I am also concerned that unless the MTCU is planning on hiring qualified pilots to participate in this program, they will not have a level of familiarity required to provide any benefit to the public.

Having served on the Board of Governors of a college of applied arts and technology in Ontario, I understand the role that the MTCU plays in quality assurance. My opinion as a professional pilot and qualified flight instructor is that the MTCU has no place regulating or monitoring flight training in Ontario. I therefore urge you, Minister, to exempt Flight Training Units from the requirements of the Private Career Colleges Act.

Yours sincerely,

[Stan_Cooper]

[bbb]

Sorry all for starting this thread then disappearing.....
Much thanks to Clunk for his great ideas and drive, and Hedley for his assistance, and also thanks to Endless for moving the tread, hopefully this will bring more needed attention to the subject. I have not had the pleasure (?) of a reply from emails and faxes. Also having a 2 -aircraft "Career College", we are tossing around what to do come Sept. Obviously, we along with the rest of the smaller Ontario schools, are pleading and hoping for a reprieve. If not, do we simply not teach CPL or Instructor ratings? Or do we get "creative" and charge our instructors a "facilities fee" equal to their hourly rate when they are teaching CPL, bill the student for aircraft rental, and the instructor bill the student for his/her time? Or do we just say screw it, and continue as we currently do, and wait to see what the Ont gov will do? I know for sure what we WON'T be doing - enrolling in their scheme!

[nite_owl]

Hmmm. TC's inspectors are facing duplication, redundancy, and or replacement here by the Ontario government. They are unionized so put this on their radar screen too. This should bring pressure to bear from inside TC's empire and pit the feds against the province. Make sure your local TC inspector is in the loop too!

[Vickers vanguard]

My frustration is compounded by some young aspiring instructors I have spoken to who again quote,"dont want to get involved in politics" Compare this with the AOPA getting all at Sun and Fun to sign the petition re user fees,{ its a pity the American public are not as active in regards what GWB is doing to their country, but thats another thread }t!

Sorry to say this, but this is a very common attitude found in this country!
I've sometimes been labelled a trouble maker for pointing to the obvious regarding our current politicians & policies. It troubles me the see the direction this government is taking.....but that's maybe because I wasn't born in this country and knows what it is to live in a banana republic.
I Did my private with a large FTU but then, left it to follow their Chief pilot when he left to open his own Tiny FTU(one aircraft) about 50 miles outside of Montreal. I finnished the CPL part time while still working full time in Aviation Maint with an airline.
Can somebody specify which persons are best to contact regarding the PCCA issue. A lot of emails addresses have been posted and I was wondering which ones would be more appropriate.

[Cat Driver]

I have been contacted by two other juristrictions with offers to move our outfit into their domains, one of the offers is very attractive, just might do it!

You may be able to sell it for more going that route.

[Hedley]

Our tiny "mom & pop" two plane FTU at our airport is NOT a "career college" by any starbuck's inhabitant's stretch of the imagination.

When I spoke to "The Donna" (Donna Vogel - please give her a call!) I explained to her that if she took a duck, and hung a sign around it's neck saying "DOG", it would not go "woof woof" and wag it's tail, because it was NOT a dog.

Similarly, if some gov't civil servant calls us a "career college", that does not make us one. We starting training here 40 years ago - probably longer than most of these obsequious, offensive civil servants have been alive - and we have NEVER had ONE problem with a student's finances, because we DO NOT take money on account - if anything, sometimes the student's don't pay us!

I invited "The Donna" to look at our accounts receivables as proof of this, but like most civil servants, she was uninterested in the facts.

So, we are going to continue our little FTU, and if the government thinks it is in the "public interest" to send in a bunch of cops with automatic weapons to drag us off to the hoosegow and shut down the FTU, well, I guess it's going to happen.

Your taxdollars at work, people.

I saw an interview with Frank Zappa, recorded back in 1986. He was surrounded by a bunch of fat, ignorant old men - the kind you find in gov't. He had just finished testifying, and his advice to the youth 20 years ago was "Register to Vote. Vote. Run for something". He was right - if you abdicate your duties as a citizen, and don't try to control your runaway gov't, it will surely try to control you.

[Hedley]

Quite seriously, I am going to propose that we add the following person to our FTU, with a very impressive title - something like "Minister Without Portfolio" or perhaps "Executive Vice-President Of Customer Experiences".

It needs to be the right person. I am leaning towards a lesbian vegan militant feminist native w/status card. I would strongly prefer a vegan, but I will accept a vegetarian. Dark skin (we can send down south to tan) and dark black hair are also obvious pre-requisites. Long dark hair, drawn tightly up into a severe bun is a bonus.

Such a person would be fearless against the forces of government silliness. They would not dare to touch us with such awesome forces aligned on our side.

You think I'm joking?

Our government is the joke, people. We are living a Monty Python sketch. Take it seriously at your own peril.

[Greg87]

Why not try to set up a formal petition (spelling?) against this stupidity? Follow the example of our friends to the south, they get angry about something, they unite and fight against it (going right back to the American Revolution!). Just my two cents, which is not on account...

[bbb]

Has anyone gotten a reply from letters or emails sent? It seems the only way you get to talk to these people is if they happen to answer the telephone.
Several of you have asked why isn't TC getting involved- because Jim Dow, head of Flight Training - has a vested interest in this issue, and would love to see advanced flight training going to college-only type programs. Apparently us mom-and-pop operators aren't producing a high-enough standard of pilot. (strange, when I see where many of our good pilots in industry come from, the majority are from smaller operators) Also, see the various threads about Jazz hiring direct from the colleges. Who needs the smaller schools if your first job is going to be at a large commuter operation??!! When our local TC inspectors 1st heard about the Private Career College issue, they were upset, said they'd be there, urged us to go and complain, explain etc. When the day came, the only TC person there was mr. dow, who when introduced by said Donna Vogel, was said to "have been working hand-in-hand with us" and "clarified some issues for us" and also "assured us that the record-keeping requirements of TC met or exceeded what the PCCA requires" so "we have agreed that the requirements for most items of the PCCA will be satisfied by meeting the requirements of TC". Talk about handing us to them on a silver platter! Since then, the response of local inspectors has been guarded, or under the breathe comments only - obviously they've been told to hush. ATAC has been even worse. They took it upon themselves to convince the Ont gov that they were the "voice of industry", and then didn't inform their members what was being proposed! Never mind that they represent fewer than 50% of FTUs. Of course, Ont gov wouldn't investigate their claim, simpler to take it at stated value. And they say they can't understand why no one was concerned about this when it was a proposal instead of law. Gee, wonder why? no one other than people who wanted it to happen or didn't really give a shit knew about it! This whole thing has been kept sooooo quiet while it was being proposed, someone somewhere has an agenda regarding flight training, and is using whatever means possible to meet that agenda. Since dow is head of flight training, and obviously knew about this, he's the prime suspect. Also, some of you DFTE' or PE's or even instructors may remember him presenting foreign operators that run career flight schools for the airlines to the workshops and instructor refresher courses and stating that "here is the future of flight training for Canada" and going on about how soon all CPL and higher instruction will be done by college-like institutions geared toward airline flying.
Being that how the majority of flying jobs in this country are not airline flying, doesn't this sound like a great way to kill aviation in Canada? Talk about someone who needs aviation to support his position being so short-sighted about the whole industry.

Anyway, as several people have suggested, perhaps it's going to come down to civil disobedience and the court system to decide. Here's hoping that the groups that claim to support general aviation and flight training in Canada hop to the plate with legal help for the schools that continue to teach CPL without enrolling in this scheme.

[HighBypass]

It sounds like it will prevent a lot of people from becomming commercial pilots. I started flying later in life while I had a mortgage. The only way I could have gotten a commercial was to train part time at a small school while I worked full time. I'm now flying for Jazz. You would think due to this impending pilot shortage they would try to make it easier for people to pursue the career.

Yes it is too bad that less people will be able to afford to be C-pilots, however it also means that pilots like yourself (working for jazz style airlines) will be able to make more then $100K in future, and maybe receive some respect, (like being able to overnight in something better then a super-8).. Its not all about the $$, but with less pilot's this industry will be less cut-throat.. and I like it already.

Maybe maore people will persure the trades.. like plumbing for example...

Roger Perdactor.

[MCA]

For students this will mean only the largest schools will continue to offer CPL or Instructor ratings. Interestingly, the aviation colleges are excempt. However, the schools that provide the flight training for college or university programs, and aren't an integral part of sad college or university will have to comply. So, lots of good schools and instructors will no longer being doing commercial training. Students are going to have far fewer choices, and will experience higher training costs. Instructors will have fewer employment opportunities, especially those leading to multi time. All this to "protect" the consumer, where most non-college schools only utilize a pay-as-you-go system???!!!!

sorry to piss a lot of you, but i agree with this 100%. in fact, only colleges should be able to issue CPL. then, you wouldn't be fighting with clowns who failed their flight tests 5 times for a 5$/hour job in St-middle-of-nowhere... 'cause those clowns wouldn't be accepted in such colleges...

to be a surgeon, you need to work your ass off and pass all the tests that go along with your 5 year+ degree...

to be a pilot, you just need to pay...

in both cases, you have a great potential to kill people.