Latest Toronto shootout underlines need for tougher gun law

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corporate joe
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Post by corporate joe »

grimey wrote:
the_professor wrote:Gun laws definitely prevent gun crime, just like the Income Tax Act stops people from cheating on their taxes. Tightening up the gun laws will certainly fix the gun problem.
Really? Please list the gun control measure put into place in Canada since 1985, and show the effect they've had on gun crimes. C-17 (put in place in 1991) and C-68 (1995) haven't had any demonstable effect on the murder rate. The last bill you could say had a noticable effect on the gun crime rate was C-51 (1977), which placed controls on the sale of ammunition, and required FACs, but you'd still have to demonstrate causation, rather than a corrolation.

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Another big problem with trying to link gun crimes with passed bills is that there are too many outside factors that can influence a crime rate. It's almost impossible to draw any conclusion unless you isolate for, or take into account those outside factors. It can not be demonstrated that gun control reduces crime, just as it can not be demonstrated that it doesn't.

PS: I think he was being sarcastic. You have to read the opposite of what he said.
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Post by grimey »

corporate joe wrote: PS: I think he was being sarcastic. You have to read the opposite of what he said.
Stupid internets. :lol:
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Post by Rockie »

grimey wrote:Demonstrate that an increased crime rate is a symptom of widespread lawful gun ownership.
I don't need to because I didn't say that, and statistics are useless anyway. I was merely expanding on Hedley's analogy about not treating symptoms because they don't actually cure the sickness. As I stated in several previous posts, I am not in favour of a firearms ban. What I am in favour of is restricting access to them so they don't become so prevalent that you can buy them from the 10 year old down the street, and registering each weapon and owner. I don't see what the problem with that is aside from the breathtaking incompetence in implementing the registry. The registry is accessed some 5000 times daily by police departments in Canada so they must see some usefulness in it. The registry itself is not evil, but like everything else the government touches it was badly implemented and cost hundreds of times more than it should have.
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Post by 2R »

There is absolutly no requirements for any NEW laws .Just a great need to enforce the existing rules of law.
More cops on the beat would do more to stop violence than all the fancy computers in the limo's that patrol .Bring back the meat wagon's with improved brakes so they can stop and pick up all the garbage on the way to the coffee shop.
A police officer on the walk around can tell you more about who lives on that street and can bring peace and order to a street better than any computer game.That is why the drug pushers in Toronto wanted the police off the streets and limit the patrols in the areas where their best customers live.The drug pushers used certain political lobby groups to achieve this end .They created NO-GO areas for police just like other major cities .
Put more police on the street in the communities then the people will feel protected .The security provided will reduce the need for people to arm themselves for protection against criminals.
They is no data base that tells the police if a criminal has a gun so why waste money on peaceful lawabiding citizens.
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Last edited by 2R on Wed Jun 13, 2007 9:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by LH »

I often wonder what Canadians consider to be appropriate sentences for the misuse of a firearm. What would they like to see for just plain old misuse of a firearm, with no harm done to anybody or anything? What penalty for using a firearm in the commission of a crime, such as robbing a person or place? What penalty for wounding or killing someone with a firearm? Should any sentences meted-out be served "consecutively" or "concurrently"?

Also bear in mind concerning all of the above that as it stands right now if someone commits a crime in Canada with a firearm of ANY type, the person will be charged with the crime committed ONLY. The criminal and improper use of the firearm will always be "Plea Bargained" away by the various Crown Attorneys in the various Provinces or forgotten about altogether.
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Post by 2R »

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070613/ap_ ... un_control

A consensus of common sense is building .Why even the National Rifle Association does not want everyone to have a gun.

As for the use of a firearm in the commision of a crime the laws are on the books and only need to be enforced to ensure a peacful society.It is the lack of political will to provide the means for enforcement to do a more effective job of enforcing the existing rules of law .
A suspicious man might think that a person involved in the shipping trade who done away with all the protections that a port police might offer a state .May just be involved in more than just the ownership of the shipping company .Especially when taken in light of the loosening of offshore banking rules at the same time .The ports of Canada being used in the illegal drugs and arms business .We will never know with any absolute certainty as the tools to check for such activity were removed by the owner of one of the largest shipping companies while he was in a position of public trust.
It is a shame that the tools to succesfully investigate such a person were removed .And those who could have investigated such a person were replaced by incompetant corrupt idiots in fancy boots .
There are indeed worse crimes than if some silly bugger kills his drug competition or some wanna be gansta kills another wannabe.Who really cares so long as they are just killing each other ???
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Post by the_professor »

grimey wrote:
the_professor wrote:Gun laws definitely prevent gun crime, just like the Income Tax Act stops people from cheating on their taxes. Tightening up the gun laws will certainly fix the gun problem.
Really? Please list the gun control measure put into place in Canada since 1985, and show the effect they've had on gun crimes. C-17 (put in place in 1991) and C-68 (1995) haven't had any demonstable effect on the murder rate. The last bill you could say had a noticable effect on the gun crime rate was C-51 (1977), which placed controls on the sale of ammunition, and required FACs, but you'd still have to demonstrate causation, rather than a corrolation.
I was being facetious. Got you hook, line & sinker. Boo-yah!!
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Post by xsbank »

Last night some scumsucker came into my driveway and punched the lock out of my car and ransacked the interior. Nothing was stolen because I don't keep anything in the car. When will drugs be legalized?

I have to go to ICBC and then take the car to the dealer and I have a deductable of $300 so I will be paying for it even though the little f*ck didn't get anything.

That, to my way of thinking, is a bigger problem than one mindless gang yahoo shooting another. In fact, I encourage the distribution of more guns to the gang morons if they promised to only shoot each other. If they shoot someone else, see below.

We need a prison on Baffin Island where people who break the law go, forever. Steal a car, shoot someone - gone.

Give away the drugs to whoever wants them (no more profits, no more gangs) and free treatment for whoever wishes to stop using. If you want to be a drug addict, fill your boots. I don't give a R.A. how you live your life, just as long as you keep it all to yourself.
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Post by 2R »

Prince Rupert might be better as at least the people who worked in those jails would have a life.
Although i still favour the road gangs to build a road from Yellowknife to Churchill .We feed them we might as well get some work out of them.
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Post by goates »

We feed them we might as well get some work out of them.
How about mine clearing around the world for the worst offenders? First time offenders get to stay 5 years and get a mask and probe. Repeat offenders have to use their bare hands and spend 10-20 years at it. Rapists and serial killers are sent for life.

On a more serious note, more cops and enforcing the laws we already have would probably be better than trying to come up with another government run program. We need to stop the slap-on-the-wrist punishments that are given out for virtually everything in the country. And if the person committing the crime immigrated here, send them back.
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Post by North Shore »

And if the person committing the crime immigrated here, send them back.
I think that it was LH who mentioned this a few pages ago, with something about some Somali who just got deported for having a huge rap sheet. In this case, he'd come here when he was 14. At what point do we consider him to be our problem, as opposed to shipping him back there? If he came here when he was 2, say, then isn't he 'Canadian' and thus any criminal behaviour here would/should be our problem - deporting him to Somalia is hardly fair to the Somalis...likewise if he was an adult, then back you go, as the criminality was probably well-developed prior to getting here. 14 years old falls neatly into what I see as being a grey area - one with no neat solution.
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Post by goates »

North Shore wrote:I think that it was LH who mentioned this a few pages ago, with something about some Somali who just got deported for having a huge rap sheet. In this case, he'd come here when he was 14. At what point do we consider him to be our problem, as opposed to shipping him back there? If he came here when he was 2, say, then isn't he 'Canadian' and thus any criminal behaviour here would/should be our problem - deporting him to Somalia is hardly fair to the Somalis...likewise if he was an adult, then back you go, as the criminality was probably well-developed prior to getting here. 14 years old falls neatly into what I see as being a grey area - one with no neat solution.
Okay, well maybe just outright deporting isn't the best answer (nothing is ever black and white). For 14 to 18 year olds, maybe have some cutoff point like 5-10 years as a probationary period. Commit a serious crime like murder or rape in that time frame and off you go, after that we treat them as Canadians. If they just stole a chocolate bar, sending them packing might be a little much.

And if they came here as a young kid, then yeah, they probably should be our problem.

Of course everyone will just start claiming that they will be persecuted in their old country and we will still be stuck with them anyways...
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Post by Flybaby »

corporate joe wrote:
Hedley wrote:For example, cars are made for driving, guns for killing. Killing prey, killing people, killing bad guys, but still killing. Guns are a weapon and weapons have a main purpose completely different than all the other things we can name that also kill.
Have you seen Death Race 2000
Image
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Post by LH »

Tougher gun laws? How about tougher penalties for the gun laws already in place? How about 24 years, no chance of parole, for ANY crime committed with a firearm? Commit two crimes using a firearm and you then spend the next 48 years as "a guest of the Canadian taxpayer" with all Rights to vote taken away from you for the same time period.
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Post by No Brakes »

How about prisons on the reserves? The prospect of being constantly harrassed by infinite amounts of black flies in the summer and the bitter cold and nothingness of winter for years and years would certainly make me think twice about pointing a gun at that minimum-wage cashier. Plus, it would give people over there something else to do besides commiting suicide. I envision ad panels with a heavily magnified, big, fat black fly on it that says "Use a gun to commit a crime and you're mine".

"They call me the Wolf. I solve problems." You're welcome.
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Post by corporate joe »

Flybaby wrote:
corporate joe wrote:
Hedley wrote:For example, cars are made for driving, guns for killing. Killing prey, killing people, killing bad guys, but still killing. Guns are a weapon and weapons have a main purpose completely different than all the other things we can name that also kill.
Have you seen Death Race 2000
Image

That's no fair. Stalone IS a weapon.


PS: but just for arguments sake, even that movie, the cars primary purpose was to race, and killing was a by-product. But the weapons equipped on the cars, they only had one purpose: destroy things in a cool way.
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Post by SYT_YYZ »

ARGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!


I like guns. NO scratch that. I LOVE GUNS!.... I have been a gun nut since I was able to say gun. I have been shooting since I was seven years old.

Yes thats right. At seven I was not combing babies hair, but shooting my very first .45 black powder. (Grandad thought I should not only appreciate guns but history too).

I still did play with barbie but it was western barbie, and she had a horsey.

I am raised in a family of hunters and "Gun nuts".
When I turned 18 I asked for a colt .45... not a car...

My 5 year old cousin just got a .22 for his birthday like his other brothers did which his daddy keep locked safe unless he is taking them shooting.

I have never taken guns to school. I have never shot at a human or for that matter anything living. I have never shot outside of a controlled environment or in a setting that would be considered by the law unsafe or reckless. I have never illegally transported or stored a weapon. And I have all of my teeth.

The same goes for each induvidual in my family. (well except grandad... he hasnt had all his teeth for some time now.) ..

I have a huge appreciation for history, westerns, and am strictly againsts improper storage of firearms, or possesing illegal ones.

Once someone asked me "oh my, YOU would keep a gun in your house when you have kids one day??"

i said "sure I would.. heck Id have 30. But they would be in a safe, to which only I or their father know the combination. "

Then I asked her "where, by the way, do you keep your steak knives, butcher knives, and other sharp pointed potential stabby things?" What do most people answer...Oh yes the same as almost any family ... on the kitchen counter in a wooden butcher knive block... or in a unlocked drawer...

so in a rage... are you going to spend an hour trying to crack a combo.. or reach for a knife???

Piss off all you gun haters...

Hate people who are irresponsible... crazy... or have a lack of value for human life...

guns are just another "thing" ... like a rock, a car, a knife, or half of you idiots when out of your padded rooms... why dont we all just walk around in a bubble...

if you want to live in a society who actually sucks up all the friggin fear that the government wants us to have..so that we rely on them all the more.. fine buncha babies weve become.....
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Post by Rockie »

SYT_YYZ wrote:ARGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!


I like guns. NO scratch that. I LOVE GUNS!.... I have been a gun nut since I was able to say gun. I have been shooting since I was seven years old.

Yes thats right. At seven I was not combing babies hair, but shooting my very first .45 black powder. (Grandad thought I should not only appreciate guns but history too).

I still did play with barbie but it was western barbie, and she had a horsey.

I am raised in a family of hunters and "Gun nuts".
When I turned 18 I asked for a colt .45... not a car...

My 5 year old cousin just got a .22 for his birthday like his other brothers did which his daddy keep locked safe unless he is taking them shooting.

I have never taken guns to school. I have never shot at a human or for that matter anything living. I have never shot outside of a controlled environment or in a setting that would be considered by the law unsafe or reckless. I have never illegally transported or stored a weapon. And I have all of my teeth.

The same goes for each induvidual in my family. (well except grandad... he hasnt had all his teeth for some time now.) ..

I have a huge appreciation for history, westerns, and am strictly againsts improper storage of firearms, or possesing illegal ones.

Once someone asked me "oh my, YOU would keep a gun in your house when you have kids one day??"

i said "sure I would.. heck Id have 30. But they would be in a safe, to which only I or their father know the combination. "

Then I asked her "where, by the way, do you keep your steak knives, butcher knives, and other sharp pointed potential stabby things?" What do most people answer...Oh yes the same as almost any family ... on the kitchen counter in a wooden butcher knive block... or in a unlocked drawer...

so in a rage... are you going to spend an hour trying to crack a combo.. or reach for a knife???

Piss off all you gun haters...

Hate people who are irresponsible... crazy... or have a lack of value for human life...

guns are just another "thing" ... like a rock, a car, a knife, or half of you idiots when out of your padded rooms... why dont we all just walk around in a bubble...

if you want to live in a society who actually sucks up all the friggin fear that the government wants us to have..so that we rely on them all the more.. fine buncha babies weve become.....
I love it.
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Post by corporate joe »

SYT_YYZ wrote:ARGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!


I like guns. NO scratch that. I LOVE GUNS!.... I have been a gun nut since I was able to say gun. I have been shooting since I was seven years old.

Yes thats right. At seven I was not combing babies hair, but shooting my very first .45 black powder. (Grandad thought I should not only appreciate guns but history too).

I still did play with barbie but it was western barbie, and she had a horsey.

I am raised in a family of hunters and "Gun nuts".
When I turned 18 I asked for a colt .45... not a car...

My 5 year old cousin just got a .22 for his birthday like his other brothers did which his daddy keep locked safe unless he is taking them shooting.

I have never taken guns to school. I have never shot at a human or for that matter anything living. I have never shot outside of a controlled environment or in a setting that would be considered by the law unsafe or reckless. I have never illegally transported or stored a weapon. And I have all of my teeth.

The same goes for each induvidual in my family. (well except grandad... he hasnt had all his teeth for some time now.) ..

I have a huge appreciation for history, westerns, and am strictly againsts improper storage of firearms, or possesing illegal ones.

Once someone asked me "oh my, YOU would keep a gun in your house when you have kids one day??"

i said "sure I would.. heck Id have 30. But they would be in a safe, to which only I or their father know the combination. "

Then I asked her "where, by the way, do you keep your steak knives, butcher knives, and other sharp pointed potential stabby things?" What do most people answer...Oh yes the same as almost any family ... on the kitchen counter in a wooden butcher knive block... or in a unlocked drawer...

so in a rage... are you going to spend an hour trying to crack a combo.. or reach for a knife???

Piss off all you gun haters...

Hate people who are irresponsible... crazy... or have a lack of value for human life...

guns are just another "thing" ... like a rock, a car, a knife, or half of you idiots when out of your padded rooms... why dont we all just walk around in a bubble...

if you want to live in a society who actually sucks up all the friggin fear that the government wants us to have..so that we rely on them all the more.. fine buncha babies weve become.....
Personal experience is very nice, but remember not everyone was brought up the same way, and some people have differing views on things you state as "facts". Insulting people with differing views only diminished the points you are trying to make. Remember, your way/experience/life is not the only way.
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Post by 1000 HP »

I think all adults should be required to carry a sidearm. Then, when the gangsters show up (much less likely) everybody else can draw and waste-em :D People would be more polite all over..
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Post by corporate joe »

1000 HP wrote:I think all adults should be required to carry a sidearm. Then, when the gangsters show up (much less likely) everybody else can draw and waste-em :D People would be more polite all over..
Most people shouldn't even be driving, let alone carrying a weapon.
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Post by rigpiggy »

Natural selection at it's finest

3 February 1990, Renton, Washington


The following mind-boggling attempt at a crime spree appeared to be the robber's first, due to his lack of a previous record of violence, and his terminally stupid choices:

1. His target was H&J Leather & Firearms. A gun shop.

2. The shop was full of customers - firearms customers.

3. To enter the shop, the robber had to step around a marked police patrol car parked at the front door.

4. A uniformed officer was standing at the counter, having coffee before work.

Upon seeing the officer, the would-be robber announced a holdup, and fired a few wild shots. The officer and a clerk promptly returned fire, covered by several customers who also drew their guns, thereby removing the confused criminal from the gene pool.

No one else was hurt.


SYT, I think I love you.
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Post by Rockie »

rigpiggy wrote:Natural selection at it's finest

3 February 1990, Renton, Washington


The following mind-boggling attempt at a crime spree appeared to be the robber's first, due to his lack of a previous record of violence, and his terminally stupid choices:

1. His target was H&J Leather & Firearms. A gun shop.

2. The shop was full of customers - firearms customers.

3. To enter the shop, the robber had to step around a marked police patrol car parked at the front door.

4. A uniformed officer was standing at the counter, having coffee before work.

Upon seeing the officer, the would-be robber announced a holdup, and fired a few wild shots. The officer and a clerk promptly returned fire, covered by several customers who also drew their guns, thereby removing the confused criminal from the gene pool.

No one else was hurt.


SYT, I think I love you.
I see your dead crook, and raise you a dead 14 year old kid. How about we stop with the stupid anecdotes?





Boy, 14, dies after accidental shooting
Youths were playing with rifle Tuesday at friend's Spanaway home

By ELAINE PORTERFIELD AND HECTOR CASTRO
SEATTLE POST-INTELLIGENCER REPORTERS

SPANAWAY -- A 14-year-old boy died yesterday after he was accidentally shot in the head Tuesday at the home of a friend where authorities said live ammunition and firearms were easily found.

Bobby Lott, who lives across the street, said it was a haunting sight when the boy was carried out of the home by emergency workers shortly after he was shot at 4:30 p.m.

"It was just horrible," said Lott, the father of sons age 11, 13 and 14. "He just looked terrible. All I could think of was my kids. I wish I hadn't seen it."

The boy was in critical condition when he was brought to Harborview Medical Center on Tuesday and died yesterday.

No one answered the door yesterday at the home where the boy was shot, in the 1500 block of 154th Street East, although a young boy could be seen peering out a window. Toys littered the driveway and spilled out from under the garage door of the aging split-level house, and several vehicles were parked in its driveway.

The boy's father, through a hospital spokesman, yesterday declined comment on the incident.

Ed Troyer, spokesman for the Pierce County sheriff, said no adults were home when the boy was shot. But three boys, who attend Spanaway Junior High, were present, and several weapons were easily accessible to them, Troyer said.

Two of the boys picked up a .22-caliber, semiautomatic rifle that was lying around and began playing with it. It apparently fired, and a bullet hit the other one in the head, Troyer said.

There was a "considerable" amount of ammunition in the home to which the boys had access, he said.

The shooting puts in stark relief the need for firearm safety and training, Troyer and others said.

"What 14-year-old boy is going to resist playing with" the rifle? he asked.

The dead boy was a ninth-grader. The other two youths attend Spanaway Junior High.

"Whenever something like this happens, it's tragic for the entire community," Bethel School Superintendent Tom Seigel said. "One lesson we can learn from this is the importance of firearm safety at home. We have to do everything possible to keep our guns out of the reach of children."

A dozen crisis counselors were brought into Spanaway Junior High yesterday to help students cope, Bethel Schools spokesman Mark Wenzel said.

"We have trained experts to help them work through their emotions," he said. "Quite a few students have taken advantage of it today."

The 14-year-old played in the school band and was a member of a school community service group called Pride, he said. He has younger siblings who attend school in the district, Wenzel said.

Tuesday's shooting is the second in recent weeks involving unsupervised minors. On Nov. 20, 12-year- old Matthew Wilson was shot and killed in Tacoma by a friend as the two played with a handgun. No charges have been filed against the boy who shot Wilson, and police have said they believe the shooting was accidental.

Lott said he often saw children playing around the Spanaway house where the boy was shot Tuesday, and while he didn't know the family there, everyone was pleasant on his small cul-de-sac.

He won't ever be able to forget the shooting, Lott said.

"I couldn't sleep last night," he said. After seeing the boy taken away by the emergency workers, he immediately called his former wife to discuss firearms safety, something he has talked with his three sons about numerous times before.

"I could just see my kids on that stretcher," he said.

"Kids are going to be curious. This happens way too much. I've always talked to my kids about gun safety.

"You just ask yourself, why weren't those guns locked up? It's a tragic thing to have happen."

Holding a gun owner liable for the accident is unlikely, as Washington state does not have any so-called child access prevention laws.

Yet, there have been efforts to pass such laws, such as the Whitney Graves Bill, named for an 8-year-old Marysville girl who died in 1996 after she was shot in the face by a 10-year-old neighbor boy.

The bill would have made it a crime to leave a loaded firearm where a child could get it. Exemptions would have been made for gun owners who secure their weapons, but the bill failed to pass.

Voters also rejected Initiative 676 in 1997, a bill that would have required gun owners to keep the weapons secured with trigger locks, and required a safety course before a person could own a gun.

Laura Lockard, executive director of Washington Ceasefire, an organization working against gun violence, said that after Wilson's death, the group has begun discussing what it could do in response.

Lockard said the group supports laws such as the Whitney Graves Bill, and "we would support it if it was introduced again."

In the meantime, it continues efforts to educate the public on the safe storage of firearms.

The National Rifle Association, which has campaigned against child access prevention laws, uses a mascot, Eddie Eagle, to promote gun safety.

The organization's campaign focuses on teaching children who find a gun to leave it alone, and to report it to an adult.

Although that's a start, some safety experts believe keeping firearms unloaded and locked up is the only way to keep children safe around firearms.

A group called the Lok It Up Campaign, which has a Web site at http://www.lokitup.org, promotes the use of trigger locks, lock boxes or chamber locks for safe gun storage. The organization has even worked with local businesses selling firearms to make discount coupons available for these devices.

The coupons are online at the group's Web site, or by calling 1-877-LOKITUP.

Ceasefire plans to introduce a campaign next year it calls ASK, an acronym for Asking Saves Kids. The goal is to get more parents willing to ask about firearms and how they are stored in the homes their children visit.

"The data shows that people might be concerned that there's a gun in the house, but they don't know how to ask," Lockard said.

The new program is aimed at helping parents bring up the topic in non-judgmental ways that focus on gun safety.

Even with the two recent incidents in Pierce County, accidental shooting deaths don't account for a large percentage of the injuries and deaths associated with firearms.

Statistics provided by Washington Ceasefire show that nationwide about 3 percent of all firearm-related deaths are accidental.

In Washington state, 11 children age 14 or younger died in accidental shootings in the five years from 1996 through the end of 2000, according to statistics from the state Department of Health.
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xsbank
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Post by xsbank »

SYT, I love you too. You can shoot my .45 whenever you want to (if I can find the key).

Best bit of gun logic on this site and just enough invective and insults to make it all interesting: 9.5/10.

Other peoples 14-year-olds are disposable anyway, Rockie. 11 in 5 years sounds like a real problem to me and should get UNICEF interested. They can start flying humanitarian relief missions into Seattle and give another one of us a job.
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Andy Hamilton
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Post by Andy Hamilton »

During the raids police siezed Kilo's of drugs, as well as firearms. Drugs that have been illegal for decades. We have'nt been able to curb drugs, what makes us think banning handguns will curb that. The majority of shootings are in a concentrated areas in Toronto. So the politicians should give those areas more attention and support. If there are 50 firearms related murders in Toronto, that means only 50 firearms were needed, lets say 100 because the other person may have had one. Obviously this is a simple statement, but let's be realistic, a handgun ban will not reduce the number of firearms deaths or shootings. I am tired of politicians taking the easy way out, in order to appease the public. Police are spit on, objects thrown at them while passing through these neighborhoods, boundries are set by gangs, social services are not set up to give all these kids easy access. That being said, the lure of easy money is also hard to combat. Operation Kryptic will slow down the violence during the summer, but it will come back with or without a ban.
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