ATPL Farce

[Spokes]

Well Hippie, that was about one of the best, well thought out and presented replies that I have seen on this site in a while.

Good to see. keep it up.

[TTJJ]

I have ATPL's from 4 countries. I fly all over creation. I have never heard "Oh, you have a Canadian ATPL. We love Canadian ATPL's".

I have heard though, "Oh, you are Canadian. I would love to move to Canada."

And in an interview for Garuda in 1992, (True story) "Oh, you are Canadian? I thought that you were American. We like Canadians. We have lots of Canadian pilots. You guys just fit right in and do your job without complaining.)

Although, I did see an ad for a pilot once that required either an Australian, New Zealand, British or Canadian license.

As for the ATPL requirements, yes they should be changed.

[Wasps rule]

I'm not putting down instructors

It sure sounded like you were.

Why should Co-pilot time count as half towards the total time requirment when you're in a two-crew environment? Every second leg is mine!???!!.

Not to point out the obvious but you just said you only fly half the legs. The math seems solid to me.

[pile-ought]

"Not to point out the obvious but you just said you only fly half the legs. The math seems solid to me."

Has this thread REALLY gone to that?? Counting only the hands and feet time as loggable?
Alright guys...
anybody who has engaged the autopilot, subtract that from your total.
Any instructors out there who let your student fly, you gotta subtract that too.
As an instructor for 1000 hours, a bush pilot for 900 hours, and now an airline pilot for about 500 hours (705 ops), I've had a SMALL flavor of each POV.
Station60 is saying that cojo time should count 1:1 (just as instructing time, training time, and any dual pilot flying in many countries).
It's easy to pick out the guys that have never instructed/worked at the 705 level. We all hide behind little code names on here and pretend to be Canada's best pilot and the supreme shit of aviation, but bottom line, without a computer screen to hide behind, we're a little more modest and sensible (I would hope).
My Opinion (and I AM qualified to make this opinion), Instructing is GREAT experience and does require a specific talent to be a good instructor. HOWEVER, the experience obtained from instructing is no more conducive to the Airline world as co-pilot currently working in the airline world, and thus I DO agree with Station60's "rant" of - cojo time should count as 1:1 (just as instructing time does).
Now get off avcanada and go drink beers on a patio somewhere![/quote]

[the professional]

You got hired with 600 hours - good for you and you haven't had to make a decision since - thats what its about. Get the required time and move left - what stopped you from getting some "decision making time" on a navajo or even a 150. Thats my rant Station. I don't disagree you have alot of experience, you could have been asleep in that seat for all those years for all we know. The rules were clear when you made your decision to take a right seat job.

[station60]

Airlines employee ATPL holders. See the connection?

Way to get your atpl, maybe even jazz would hire you now!

[station60]

You got hired with 600 hours - good for you and you haven't had to make a decision since - - what stopped you from getting some "decision making time" on a navajo or even a 150. Thats my rant Station. I don't disagree you have alot of experience, you could have been asleep in that seat for all those years for all we know. The rules were clear when you made your decision to take a right seat job.

Nothing stopped me from getting some "decision making time". I flew left seat on a Navajo and flew skydivers for 400 hrs prior to going side-saddle...I made a few decisions in those 400 hrs and I can honestly say none of that combined was anything close to the real-life experience you get on the 727 or right seat in the heavy t-props I fly...I got a hell of a lot more "airline experience" on the jet than I ever did bombing around the NE united states in the Navajo...

What do you fly? Where did you get your experience from?

[station60]

Not to point out the obvious but you just said you only fly half the legs. The math seems solid to me.

Intersting point, albeit ignorant.

On the same note however, did you know in the United States anyone who is type rated on a particular aircraft can log PIC time as long as they are the "sole manipulator of the controls" while flying it? It's a massive PIC party down there, everybody's logging it...... what do you all think of that?

[station60]

I've had a SMALL flavor of each POV.

Pile-ought, good usage of the term "POV". I remember seeing that term somewhere.....

[Johnny Reb]

Airlines employee ATPL holders. See the connection?

Way to get your atpl, maybe even jazz would hire you now!

That's a pretty low thing to say on here considering that you just finished pissing and moaning that mean old TC won't let you be a Captain with your whopping 1700 hours and loads of worldly experience.

I would hazard to guess that there are plenty of gentlemen on here who instructed, and flew captain on a piston twin, and were issued an ATPL and who eventually flew right or left seat in your high and mighty heavy 705 aircraft, and then maybe moved on to Jazz or are willing to.

Does this make these guys stupid? Ignorant of the way the world works? Or maybe lesser pilots than yourself, because you have managed to become such a god of aviation (sans ATPL) in such a short time?

More likely, I suspect, it just means daddy wasn't a CP and a PPC on a heavy wasn't feasible, what with the student loan payments and all. So, alas, no choice was left but to work their way up and gain experience and work within the system. Damned System! PIC time for an ATPL! Ludicrous!

[Lurch]

[quote="station60Nothing stopped me from getting some "decision making time". I flew left seat on a Navajo and flew skydivers for 400 hrs prior to going side-saddle...I made a few decisions in those 400 hrs and I can honestly say none of that combined was anything close to the real-life experience you get on the 727 or right seat in the heavy t-props I fly...I got a hell of a lot more "airline experience" on the jet than I ever did bombing around the NE united states in the Navajo...
[/quote]

So 200 hours CPL, 400 hours PIC since, that leaves 900 hours or 1800 hours right seat, since you are on the 27 how short on hours are you?

What 2-3 years to get the 1800 hours?

Sorry still no sympathy

[just curious]

I would hazard to guess that there are plenty of gentlemen on here who instructed, and flew captain on a piston twin, and were issued an ATPL and who eventually flew right or left seat in your high and mighty heavy 705 aircraft, and then maybe moved on to Jazz or are willing to.

Does this make these guys stupid? Ignorant of the way the world works? Or maybe lesser pilots than yourself, because you have managed to become such a god of aviation (sans ATPL) in such a short time?

Actually, there's a substantial number of Station 60's ATPL rated captains who did exactly that. Had drinks with a couple of them tonight. One had beer come out his nose as he read this.

Lemme know when 7f starts putting 1800 hour guys left seat on the Hawkers to Barneo.

[station60]

Does this make these guys stupid? Ignorant of the way the world works? Or maybe lesser pilots than yourself, because you have managed to become such a god of aviation (sans ATPL) in such a short time?

This entire debate on if the ATPL requirments should be re-thought has gone off track.

I don't think there are "lesser" or "greater" pilots out there, everybody is unique and has their own skills to bring to the table. Some people are better managers, some people are better communicators, some people are better with their hands and feet and not so good in other areas.

As for Borneo, no? Clearly that type of work should be left up to a Captain with those particular set of skills....

When did God have anything to do with this? And why in God's name are you speaking French (re: sans). Please, save that nonsense for when you're down at Jazz.

[TreeProtector]

Reading this I am at a lost for words...but people..you really dont know whats coming. Being at ATAC last year, and TC informing us that multi-crew licensing is coming out. So this means that a 200 hrs pilots will be working at airlines, they would have received all of their training from the airline, HAVE NO experience flying anything in remote places etc.

What about Integrated ATPL courses as well, some guy will have bear minimums for commerical pilot have have an frozen ATPL working at jazz.

Re: new experiments at Jazz getting guys right from colleges...its going to take these people YEARS to accumulate enough time to upgrade unless something changes.

So when comparing when station60 experience is and what these jokers are gonna have. Does it seem fair?

[saucer_driver]

I dont think the atpl is joke/farce/all that bad. I am somewhat surprised at how little experience is required to hold one, but really it is only required to fly a two crew aircraft as PIC.

I think that FO time should be logable 1 for 1 however. If you are giong to use the excuse of flying only half the legs i would say well the captain only flies the other half, so that is out. Decision making in a 2 crew environment should be made by both pilots together, both are being paid plus it makes for a more useful FO when needed....i think that transport should recognize it as 1 for 1 and if a company is looking for fast upgraders then they can count FO time as half, like they do for instructing in the float world and whatever else they want......which in my opinion is ignorant, but no one really listens to me anyways.

Plus a good FO should know the plane as well as the captain. I just dont see the whole 1/2 thing.......

[station60]

I dont think the atpl is joke/farce/all that bad. I am somewhat surprised at how little experience is required to hold one, but really it is only required to fly a two crew aircraft as PIC.

I think that FO time should be logable 1 for 1 however. If you are giong to use the excuse of flying only half the legs i would say well the captain only flies the other half, so that is out. Decision making in a 2 crew environment should be made by both pilots together, both are being paid plus it makes for a more useful FO when needed....i think that transport should recognize it as 1 for 1 and if a company is looking for fast upgraders then they can count FO time as half, like they do for instructing in the float world and whatever else they want......which in my opinion is ignorant, but no one really listens to me anyways.

Plus a good FO should know the plane as well as the captain. I just dont see the whole 1/2 thing.......

Best response yet, Im in 100% agreeance with you. Well done.

[Four1oh]

except that you're both wrong. The captain COMMANDS the airplane, even when the FO is flying. Having been in both seats, i completely agree with the requirements for an ATPL in Canada.

go and get a real job as a PIC. You did 400 hours flying skydivers and you think you deserve an ATPL??!! what a frigggin joke! That's one step above the circuit pattern! Go out and make your own command decisions, go out and make your own mistakes, and then come back when you've learned something. Being held in check by a captain does not and should not count as PIC, I'm sorry.

Sounds to me like a classic, wanna-get-to-the-airlines-fast kind of guy to me, but never thought of the consequences of 'not paying your dues' and getting your ATPL like the rest of us.

But hey, you got that cushy airline job years before I did, so good on you! Enjoy!

[pile-ought]

I've been periodically checking back at this over the last few days and to be frank (even though I'm not Frank), I don't think pilots can read.
Most of the responses on here are just side rants of their own. Look at the one right above this reply for example....who said anything about needing/logging cojo time as PIC time?? The point of all this that I see is:
why not credit cojo time in heavy machines as 1:1. The argument is that instructors get the one to one credit, and as far as developing a pilot to act as PIC in an airline environment (hence ATPL), is cojo time in the actual environment really only worth HALF that of instructing?
I'm all for the instructors (I was one), all for the bush guys (I was one), and all for cojos (I am one). I vote 1:1 for loggable time on anything over 12500 in a REAL two crew aircraft.

[Chuck U Farley]

If you complained about this when you started your first flying job then you have an argument. But you start complaining when you find the rules are shafting you is just ridiculous. You chose your career path and don't tell me that you were never warned. You sat there and smiled to yourself thinking that you were doing better than all your friends from flight school proud of all the stories of lore about you, well now suck it up.
As others have said it is about responsibility, as an SO/FO you are getting flight experience but you have no true responsibility.
You want the left seat of the big plane then take a leave and go fly a HO, there are lots of job being offered on this site, and get your time and learn the skills you are lacking.

[station60]

You did 400 hours flying skydivers and you think you deserve an ATPL??!! what a frigggin joke!

Did you even read my argument? That' is *NOT* my argument. LEARN TO READ. (as Pile-ought points out very well)

Sounds to me like a classic, wanna-get-to-the-airlines-fast kind of guy to me

I _am_ at the airlines. You're 0/2 man!

I am now going wakeboarding, so fight amongst yourselves!

[pile-ought]

ChuckFarely....this sounds like a joke post so I won't comment on this specifically.
Station60, correct me if I'm wrong but my impression of your post is:
That it's a bit asinine that the system is conducive to everybody except the cojo already working in the airline environment in obtaining an ATPL.

[just curious]

While I can understand your frustration, I find it unlikely that 7F would reverse their steeped in tradition policies and make a 2000 hour driver a captain on anything they run except for the Beeches they sold a few years ago.

If magically the rules were changed for the Atpl you would only be able to use the licence's priveledges by moving onto a small aircraft out side you own company. Seems that in this case TC is doing you a favour.

As for your "C150 instructor fly's for 500 hrs in the left downwind for Runway 32, and then does 1000 hrs of instructing in the practice area.... and he's capable of holding an ATPL, making sure to pull his carb heat on before landing or whatever it is you do.... " sure, they can hold an ATPL. They can thus be immediately qualified to fly as captain on a 704/705 machine. Do you really think that's gonna happen faster than an upgrade for an FO with time on type and on the operation? Despite the rules of seniority? If you truly believe that, then the foil hat worn by one of your peers (who also never had an ATPL) is something you should consider. The radiation is getting to you.

[flynfiddle]

It's funny how times change. 2-3 years ago a 3000 hour instructor from down South came up North expecting to land a left seat turbine gig and basically was shown the door by the CP because the person had no real experience for Northern work and "you got an hour 3000 times".

Fast forward 2-3 years. Now CP's are all over pilots with "an hour x many times". Have instructors learned more in that time frame? I highly doubt it. Gone are the days of experience counting for much besides "specialized" work, here are the days of "meeting PIC time requirements". As long as the industry is crying for Captains and contracts requiring higher PIC times, TC will not likely change anything and instructors will "progress" quicker.

Is it right? Whose to say? I guess time will tell. All pilots think they are hard done by for whatever the reason, I'm no exception.

I apologize for shitting on instructors but tell me this, if the requirement to become an instructor was minimum 500TT, how many of you would have become instructors and how many of you would have done what everybody else does and come up the ranks and set aside your life long dream of instructing?

Anyway ... this ol' chestnut will be debated forever and a day.

It will be interesting to see how the industry fares 5 years down the road with lower experience in the cockpit and fewer people getting into the biz at the entry level.

[Widow]

Can someone direct me to links regarding requirements to be an instructor? I would like to have a better understanding. In my mind I keep comparing it to being a (auto) driving instructor, and not liking what I am thinking.

I guess along the same lines, links to requirements for Chief Pilot and Operations Manager would be useful too.

[shitdisturber]

I dont think the atpl is joke/farce/all that bad. I am somewhat surprised at how little experience is required to hold one, but really it is only required to fly a two crew aircraft as PIC.

I think that FO time should be logable 1 for 1 however. If you are giong to use the excuse of flying only half the legs i would say well the captain only flies the other half, so that is out. Decision making in a 2 crew environment should be made by both pilots together, both are being paid plus it makes for a more useful FO when needed....i think that transport should recognize it as 1 for 1 and if a company is looking for fast upgraders then they can count FO time as half, like they do for instructing in the float world and whatever else they want......which in my opinion is ignorant, but no one really listens to me anyways.

Plus a good FO should know the plane as well as the captain. I just dont see the whole 1/2 thing.......

Best response yet, Im in 100% agreeance with you. Well done.

I think it's hilarious that the only one you're not being confrontational with is the guy who just happens to agree with you. Really, what's holding you back, the lack of an ATPL or your maturity?