Hatred towards flight colleges

Freddy_Francis · Post by **Freddy_Francis** » Sun Jul 01, 2007 12:42 am

So ive been reading the forum and people love to bash the aviation colleges, my question is....is it all colleges or is it specifically seneca? Is it simply cause of the Jazz recruitment drive or is there more to it?

767 · Post by **767** » Sun Jul 01, 2007 3:05 am

too many pilots not enough jobs is the reason!!

RVR6000 · Post by **RVR6000** » Sun Jul 01, 2007 7:17 am

And these colleges continue to give out press releases of a 'major shortage of pilots' in the country.

sissyphus · Post by **sissyphus** » Sun Jul 01, 2007 7:48 am

its when you come looking for a job in your sweet college jacket. its 35 deg in the shade, no hair out of place and you think you're better than every other candidate because of your sweet aviation jacket. Take er down a notch, come back to earth.

lexx · Post by **lexx** » Sun Jul 01, 2007 9:03 am

I see it's not just colleges offering aviation courses. The University of Waterloo through the Waterloo Flight Center at ykf is getting into flight training as well. Here's the link http://www.wwflightcentre.com/Career%20 ... /index.htm

Lexx
http://www.ykf.ca

Golden Flyer · Post by **Golden Flyer** » Sun Jul 01, 2007 9:40 am

I think most of the guys who bash Seneca are just disgruntled. The fact that these kids get out out of the program & head straight to fly jets piss them off a great deal. Frankly, I love to hear whine...

AUGER9 · Post by **AUGER9** » Sun Jul 01, 2007 9:40 am

sissyphus wrote:its when you come looking for a job in your sweet college jacket. its 35 deg in the shade, no hair out of place and you think you're better than every other candidate because of your sweet aviation jacket. Take er down a notch, come back to earth.

Well, where I go to school, people don't think they're better than others because of the school they go to too. Maybe Seneca, I don't know, but not here anyways. It seems like because one school is like this, that people want to believe the rest are. Come here and you'll see your typical down-to-earth college students with messed up hair that go to school and fly.

And were talking about pilots here, everyone thinks they're better than everyone else.

Krashman · Post by **Krashman** » Sun Jul 01, 2007 11:31 am

Nothing wrong with aviation colleges...

just be sure you don't think your any better than the next guy. a comercial licence with 250 is nothing better than a licence to learn about the aviation industry for the next several years before you get your chance to do some flying

Kelowna Pilot · Post by **Kelowna Pilot** » Sun Jul 01, 2007 3:31 pm

No one 'hates' flying colleges, people are just a bit disappointed and perhaps concerned that some of their marketing rhetoric does more harm to the industry than good.

No one knows where the industry will be in six months, let alone four years from know. So when flying school sales staff (or admissions officers or whatever you want to call them) talk with absolute certainty about what is going to happen in four years, when they really don't have a clue, no one does, it's troubling.

The attitude of a lot of the so-called 'college boys' is also an issue, but when you're 20 and naive and inexperienced and your confidence comes mainly from ignorance, that can be excused.

767 · Post by **767** » Sun Jul 01, 2007 7:50 pm

Golden Flyer wrote:I think most of the guys who bash Seneca are just disgruntled. The fact that these kids get out out of the program & head straight to fly jets piss them off a great deal. Frankly, I love to hear whine...

well i dont comment on seneca, but i think they should change he 4 year deal into a 2 year deal. if confederation college is 2 years, why is seneca 4 years? is it because they have different syllabus? makes me wonder.. neways i only got 2 months left in my program, and i should start working in the next 4-5 months.. i wish good luck to everyone in other flight college/university programs.. ciao!

Freddy_Francis · Post by **Freddy_Francis** » Sun Jul 01, 2007 7:51 pm

Ahh yes, well ive met some guys from a certain flight college out here in the lower mainland....only thing ive ever seen outta that school is a really good turn out of instructors.(thats not a put-down) I was just a bit curious by the bashing of some colleges. Now that 3/4 through my training and have been at it for 2yrs. I've flown and met a few that have the worst attitude and some who have really great personalities & a good attitude towards their training and flying and who know that 250hr wonders are not that sparse a breed.

Kelowna Pilot · Post by **Kelowna Pilot** » Mon Jul 02, 2007 12:21 am

I've flown and met a few that have the worst attitude

It's actually written somewhere in the Flight Instructors manual that if the student has a bad attitude, there is a chance that the school itself, not the student, is the source of the problem.

Make no mistake about it, your attitude toward the industry to start will be shaped to a large degree by the tone set by your school's management (and that tone will trickle down through your instructor).

I like to say there are no bad students or bad workers, only bad managers.

Freddy_Francis · Post by **Freddy_Francis** » Mon Jul 02, 2007 12:37 am

Can you elaborate on that Kelowna Pilot? You make an interesting case. Ive seen plenty of times the old "were gonna get you a job but you have to dump $40,000 striclty here" scam plenty of times. Seeing as I may persue the instructor route that seems like an interesting quote.

Krashman · Post by **Krashman** » Mon Jul 02, 2007 7:53 am

I like to say there are no bad students or bad workers, only bad managers.

I don't think so... don't let yourself off that easily.

I'm a product of the 'system' in the lower mainland and there are bad students.... I used to instruct... trust me there are! There are also bad workers.... I fly charters now. It's managements job to get rid of those people but sometimes thats just the nature of the beast and you have to worry about the task in front of you and just shake your head at the other guy... I know that sounds terrible...

Seeing as I may persue the instructor route

If your going to pursue the instructor route be sure your doing it for the right reasons... not just to build time and leave...

Shiny Side Up · Post by **Shiny Side Up** » Mon Jul 02, 2007 9:20 am

Kelowna Pilot wrote: I like to say there are no bad students or bad workers, only bad managers.

Clearly someone's not up on their Sun-Tzu.

If you have one bad student, its the student who is flawed. If you have an entire class of bad students, it is their teacher whom is to blame.

Kelowna Pilot · Post by **Kelowna Pilot** » Mon Jul 02, 2007 10:39 am

Can you elaborate on that Kelowna Pilot? You make an interesting case. Ive seen plenty of times the old "were gonna get you a job but you have to dump $40,000 striclty here" scam plenty of times. Seeing as I may persue the instructor route that seems like an interesting quote.

We're dealing in generalities of course, but often there is strong connection between the attitude of the school's staff and the attitude of the management.

And that of course also trickles down on to the student, and will have an effect on the student's performance and attitude toward their flight training and the industry.

Generally, but not always:

Good managers = Good instructors = Good students with good attitudes
Bad managers = Bad instructors = Bad students with bad attitudes

It's trite to say it, but success does start from the top down usually.

As for the drop $40,000 here thing, it's not necessarily a scam. The problem is no one knows where the industry will be in six months.

It could work out. It could not. There is a lot of luck and timing involved and other variables out of your control.

(And anyone who tells you they know where the industry will be in six months is either too stupid to know that no one knows the future or just plain out to get your money.)

Remember, it was like it is now movement wise right before the Canadian-Air Canada merger, and that's when things really started to tank... then came 9-11....

It's a crapshoot frankly.

Freddy_Francis · Post by **Freddy_Francis** » Mon Jul 02, 2007 12:02 pm

If your going to pursue the instructor route be sure your doing it for the right reasons... not just to build time and leave...

Krashman after being with some of the "time building instructors" believe me im the first guy who will make sure it is the rating I would like to persue. At the school im at now ive already sat in on some lessons where the Class 1 is teaching his student. It is an interesting way to break into the industry in my opinion however I am still feeling it out.

The thing with where the industry will be in 6 months....

The one thing I found out before I even spent a dime on this career was...what is the industry like....and everyone said it goes up....it goes down....and it goes around and around..patience is the key and not expecting to go from 250 hrs to the left seat of a 747. If you have a realistic attitude you'll do fine in my opinion.

BTD · Post by **BTD** » Mon Jul 02, 2007 6:12 pm

Well it is easy to see that a lot of the people here didn't go to a college. (thats not a put down) But from the government funded programs they don't need to B.S. people about what the industry will be like in 6 months or 5 years. They will have the students regardless.

They laid it out for me 5 or 6 years ago when I went through. Told us we would be working Sh*t jobs for X amont of years before we would be anywhere livable etc.

Some people have bad attitudes and some have good attitudes. Its not so much a product of the school as it is the individual as in all walks of life. Now having said that, certain types of people may be more attracted to one type of school.

The better than thou attitude due to college is highly flawed.

Having done a funded program I highly recommend it. On average there is more structure to those programs. Does it mean you will be a better pilot NO!

BTD

Kelowna Pilot · Post by **Kelowna Pilot** » Mon Jul 02, 2007 7:28 pm

Its not so much a product of the school as it is the individual as in all walks of life.

I still generally disagree.

I went to three different schools, and each had a very different management style at the top.

Between each school, you could really see the difference in not only the instructors, but also the students with respect to their attitudes and performance.

The management sets the tone for the school. If that tone is one where the students and staff are treated with dignity and respect, then you'll probably have staff and students with positive attitudes.

I've seen schools who are like this first hand. I've have also seen schools who are not like like first hand.

quicksilver · Post by **quicksilver** » Mon Jul 02, 2007 9:04 pm

I went to a flight college and have no regrets. You can find a cocky 200 hour wonder at a flight college and you can find just as many that didn't go to college. The school I went to made sure that we all knew getting a job would be very difficult if not impossible. Of my class I would say about half are in flying jobs, from multi engine turbo props to floats.

It drives me nuts how people can think only cocky 200 hour pilots come from flight colleges. I've seen some pretty "sweet jackets" on boys that had nothing to do with a college!

Can't we all just get along? This industry is tough enough as it is with out us turning on each other.

Quick

Freddy_Francis · Post by **Freddy_Francis** » Mon Jul 02, 2007 11:06 pm

you know quick thats exactly it. Instead of turning on one another we should be setting up ways to help one another out. HOWEVER there are so many guys out there who go into this industry with the "its all for one and well pretty much @#$! you its all for me!" As for the jackets and the guys who think their the #1 gun I have seen some of those guys get a total turn around in attitude either because they worked for a not so tip top operator or they almost killed themselves and got set straight....either way things wont change...unfortunatly

Krashman · Post by **Krashman** » Tue Jul 03, 2007 1:50 pm

It drives me nuts how people can think only cocky 200 hour pilots come from flight colleges. I've seen some pretty "sweet jackets" on boys that had nothing to do with a college!

Amen

Freddy,

The thing with where the industry will be in 6 months....

We all know its tough to say where it will be in 6 months but it never hurts for you to start looking for work now while your doing your rating... dispatch/ feuling.... you'll be the first to get a new or existing position once finished and ready to teach

Hotel Tango · Post by **Hotel Tango** » Tue Jul 03, 2007 7:04 pm

When I was in College I had the Jacket as well. What's wrong with that?

No ones bashing the University students with the Engineering, Medicine or Physics jacket. EVERY post secondary institution has them, but it seems to me only our industry attacks them.

Just another example of how we seek out and eat our young in this industry.

Everyone complains that we can't unite as a force and make the conditions better in the Canadian aviation industry but the first chance they get, they'll shit on everyone below them. Rampies, students who still think it's cool to be a pilot, anything you people will label with the suffix "wonder", maybe these guys aren't the problem.

Freddy_Francis · Post by **Freddy_Francis** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 12:06 am

Funny story for you Krashman....When I had less than 15hours I went to the south side of YVR. I said to myself ill work on the ramp as im training kill 2 birds with one stone idea....if I dont get a flying job right away ill have the experience and I can work the ramp while waiting in line. Which im more than willing to do WITH a reputable company who has advanced rampies to flight line in a realistic amount of time & not played the carrot game.

Heres how the conversation went.....

Me: you guys looking for rampies?
Guy @ Aviat: YES! we are
Me: How do I apply?
Guy @ Aviat: Well heres the # to our boss call him tuesday
Me: Thanks ill call him then
Guy @ Aviat: By the way are you a pilot?
Me: (All proud & unknowing) yes I am why do you ask?
Guy @ Aviat: Oh we dont hire pilots we notice they stay until their done their training get a job & leave....
Me: "walks out door dumbfounded"

In the end I thanked him for his time and left....now it was strictly an FBO but I figured it be a good way to get experience & a job in the industry. Im not bitter or regret the way it went....and as i've gone on longer into my traning the ramp thing doesnt sit well with me...but its like Hotel Tango said "we dont help our young we push them outta the nest before they can even see"

Now am I saying id never work the ramp? no....but there should be some give for the take not just a one way street....ive already done some research into companies that actually do this such as NACair in Thunderbay.

Not trying to start a fight just sharing some stories. I in no way hate flight college students. I do however have a problem with guys who walk around the airport with their chest puffed out just because they have 10more hours than you.

Krashman · Post by **Krashman** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 9:31 am

well thats too bad it went like that.... I haven't worked out that way for a few years but Pasco used to like to hire guys with little or no time to work on the ramp.

I did several IFR renewals for ramp guys from NACair when I was out that way. For the past little while they've been hiring guys from the ramp to start flying the PC12... not a bad gig. Just don't work on the ramp for Perimeter in YWG. They have guys on the ramp there that have been there for about 2 years and now with a bunch of captains leaving for Jazz and AC they couldn't upgrade any FOs so the progression stopped there.