Ticket cancellation?

whipline · Post by **whipline** » Mon Jul 02, 2007 11:41 am

I just cancelled a ticket within a week of travel. I called them up to give the airline at least a bit of time to fill the seat which of course is already paid for by me. I never expected to get a penny back from the ticket price. When I asked how I would be getting my taxes, Nav Can fee, airport improvement fee and security fee back I was told that the money was forfeited. I said "that's a total scam. Can I have proof that my user fee's are going to go to the proper agencies?" Of course that was met by the sound of crickets.

I then did some research with three other airlines in Canada and noticed they all do the same thing.

Am I missing something. Does Nav Can charge on a per person basis? Does the GTAA charge on a per person basis? And why the hell am I paying tax on something that I am not using? I don't mind giving up the ticket price but I do have a problem paying for user fee's that I won't be using and letting the airline keep it.

The way I see it, the airlines are keeping the money for the origianal ticket, selling the seat again and keeping all the above fee's. I have one word for that...THEFT (them)..or DUMBASS (me)

CD · Post by CD » Mon Jul 02, 2007 12:15 pm

Excellent point... Perhaps the Canadian Transportation Agency can assist:

How to file a complaint

linecrew · Post by **linecrew** » Mon Jul 02, 2007 1:29 pm

The whole thing about a fixed Nav Canada fee on an airline ticket is sketchy. The fee is variable based on different factors including the MTOW of the aircraft, distance flown, etc.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Mon Jul 02, 2007 2:50 pm

The way I see it, the airlines are keeping the money for the origianal ticket, selling the seat again and keeping all the above fee's. I have one word for that...THEFT

Why do the public put up with all the crap that has now become part of flying by airlines.....

It's about time to revolt.....and use airlines as a last possible means of travel.

I went to Ontario last summer and the attitude of a Jazz ticket agent in Windsor was so arrogant and insulting I would have just walked away from the counter if I had not paid for the ticket in advance.....

She asked for photo ID and I couldn't find my drivers license so I showed her my Air France pilot ID card and she said it was not acceptable, what is it with these people?

GilletteNorth · Post by **GilletteNorth** » Tue Jul 03, 2007 1:36 am

linecrew said:

The whole thing about a fixed Nav Canada fee on an airline ticket is sketchy. The fee is variable based on different factors including the MTOW of the aircraft, distance flown, etc.

I'm sure the airlines can calculate the 'fixed' cost for specific aircraft flying from point A to point B. There's even a cost calculator on the Nav Canada website to do exactly that.

As far as I've seen while travelling, taking a flight from Toronto to London has a different Nav Canada fee than what is charged for a flight from Vancouver to Winnipeg. So aren't they taking the various factors into account when determining the fee on the ticket?

What I'd really like to know is if the figures quoted on the ticket do match the amount charged in service fees for that one flight by Nav Canada (equally distributed per seat) within a reasonable amount of error... say a few bucks either way. If the ticket says $15 for my one seat out of 24 on the aircraft, I'd like to be able to check to see if their fee matches a Nav Canada fee of $360 for the flight.

I bet it really helps the airlines take the travelling public's mind off how much they charge for a seat by having the Nav Canada fee listed seperately. So people can sit and gripe how Nav Canada 'is really taking a bite' in their pocketbook for the cost of the trip but don't question what the airline's profit is on each ticket? Or they do question it but can't make an accurate guess so let's just bitch about the cost they DO know, the Nav Canada fee. That's BS.

People want to know what they're paying for. Basically all they need to know is they're paying for the opportunity to get on an aircraft that will fly from point A to point B on a specified date and time. If the total price isn't agreeable to them... WALK.

When you go to a furniture store to buy an appliance, the bill doesn't seperately list the cost for trucking the appliance to the store's location. Or the list the wages paid to the store employee for moving the appliance onto it's place on the showroom floor. Or list the heating and lighting cost for the building the store is in. Or the saleperson's wage to sit and explain all the wonderful features of the appliance etc.

linecrew · Post by **linecrew** » Tue Jul 03, 2007 4:41 am

GilletteNorth wrote:linecrew said:
When you go to a furniture store to buy an appliance, the bill doesn't seperately list the cost for trucking the appliance to the store's location. Or the list the wages paid to the store employee for moving the appliance onto it's place on the showroom floor. Or list the heating and lighting cost for the building the store is in. Or the saleperson's wage to sit and explain all the wonderful features of the appliance etc.

The above point is not a good comparison to the cost of an airline ticket. A furniture store doesn't deliberately mislead the public by advertising a price that's considerably lower than what you will actually pay in the end. Pull out any "low airfare" ad from any paper in Canada and you'll see what I mean. Perhaps furniture stores might generate more sales if they only showed the price before all of the added costs you mentioned since your appliance might then only cost $10!

CID · Post by **CID** » Tue Jul 03, 2007 6:37 am

She asked for photo ID and I couldn't find my drivers license so I showed her my Air France pilot ID card and she said it was not acceptable, what is it with these people?

Just curious Cat, what makes you think an Air France pilot ID is acceptable as photo ID? Do you think any slip of paper with your picture on it should be acceptable?

You might want to read up on the rules:

http://passengerprotect.gc.ca/identity.html

As far as the refund goes, yah it's a bitch. But it's also the result of the low fares we are enjoying. The airlines have bowed to consumer demands at the expense of creature comforts, customer service and flexibility. If you want to mess with your schedule these days, you have to pay a premium otherwise you risk forfeit of the entire fare or additional re-scheduling costs.

Occasionally the airline allows you to "store" the money for a year until you travel again.

Is it fair? Yes. The contracts and agreements are easily obtained and spell it out quite clearly. If you don't like it you could always drive or walk or pay the extra money for the scheduling flexibility.

The above point is not a good comparison to the cost of an airline ticket. A furniture store doesn't deliberately mislead the public by advertising a price that's considerably lower than what you will actually pay in the end.

Ever go to a furniture store that advertised that you don't pay for a year? Or go buy a car with 0% interest? Ever buy something with your Sears card during those "special" offers where you pay little or no interest? What do those have in common? They are all scams. Go buy a $20,000 car at 0% and there is a $3500 finance charge. Don't pay for a year? That will cost you a finance charge too. Let's face it. Furniture stores DO mislead the public.

When the repo guy shows up for the furniture and car, don't expect him to return the sales tax either.

As for the airlines, if you want to book the cheap $100 ticket make sure you read the contract/agreement.

whipline · Post by **whipline** » Tue Jul 03, 2007 7:48 am

Good points CID, except for one thing. I don't care about losing the entire ticket price. I do however care that the airline is going to keep money that is not theirs. They collect the Nav Can fees, airport fee's and tax for third parties but only pay the third parties if I travel. I am not travelling so I want that money back or proof that they have sent that money to the proper agencies so I can ask them for it back.

As a side note I just went online to see if I could book a seat on the flight I cancelled, its full meaning they have already sold my seat.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Tue Jul 03, 2007 8:32 am

Just curious Cat, what makes you think an Air France pilot ID is acceptable as photo ID? Do you think any slip of paper with your picture on it should be acceptable?

Good question CID:

Lets examine it on a logical level.

First off I could not find my drivers license and needed something with my name and picture on it.

I had my Air France ID in with my credit cards because it is made of plastic with a magnetic stripe on the back and my picture on it.....

I passed the agent my Master card when she refused the Air France ID card and said please check the name..it is mine.

I had flown into Windsor several days previous on Jazz using the same return Air Canada ticket and I was flying back home Windsor - Toronto - Vancouver.

The issue that I was alluding to was the attitude of the Jazz agent which was as stated arrogant and insulting....we as customers of Jazz or any other airline should be treated with courtesy by agents, if their policy deems that only certain picture ID is acceptable that does not give the agent license to be insulting and arrogant....

By the way why would any passenger go to the bother of forging an airline ID card just to board a Dash 8 operated by Jazz.

Oh I found my drivers license after I got home...it was in a jacket pocket in my suitcase where I had put it about a week before when I rented the car in Windsor.

happy_flyer · Post by **happy_flyer** » Tue Jul 03, 2007 10:05 am

I had the same problem on Jazz the other day - I couldn't readily locate my driver's license as I had been in the Uk for a few weeks. So I offered my Canadian Citizenship card, and was told that was unacceptable.

I doubt it gets more official...

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Tue Jul 03, 2007 10:56 am

Getting into an airliner these days is becoming as difficult for law abiding citizens is it is for a criminal to get out of jail.

When we allow morons to set the policies we get frustrated airline employees pissing off their customers.

There was a saying:

If you have time to spare go by air.

Now it should be if you have time to spare and travel by air you will end up pulling out your hair.

I have to leave my summer place to go back home today because I have to be there for a phone call from Greece, I may have no chioce but to fly over there for a meeting to do with flight training and hiring of pilots.

Just the thought of going through the B.S. at airports to get to sit for ten or twelve hours on another jet ruins my month.

Oh well I should never read my e-mail or answer the fu.kin phone...

CID · Post by **CID** » Tue Jul 03, 2007 12:54 pm

I have to leave my summer place to go back home today because I have to be there for a phone call from Greece

Is that where you keep your special "Greek" telephone?

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Tue Jul 03, 2007 3:15 pm

Is that where you keep your special "Greek" telephone?

Actually it is where I have a land line.....my summer place is over on the west coast of Vancouver Island and there is no land line telephone service......and cell service is very location sensitive and unreliable.

Longtimer · Post by **Longtimer** » Tue Jul 03, 2007 6:44 pm

Cat Driver wrote:
The way I see it, the airlines are keeping the money for the origianal ticket, selling the seat again and keeping all the above fee's. I have one word for that...THEFT
Why do the public put up with all the crap that has now become part of flying by airlines.....

It's about time to revolt.....and use airlines as a last possible means of travel.

I went to Ontario last summer and the attitude of a Jazz ticket agent in Windsor was so arrogant and insulting I would have just walked away from the counter if I had not paid for the ticket in advance.....

She asked for photo ID and I couldn't find my drivers license so I showed her my Air France pilot ID card and she said it was not acceptable, what is it with these people?

How come some folks don't think that the requirements apply to them or somehow they should be exempt. The airlines are required to ask for Government issued photo ID........ Why should you be exempt?????

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Tue Jul 03, 2007 7:06 pm

How come some folks don't think that the requirements apply to them or somehow they should be exempt. The airlines are required to ask for Government issued photo ID........ Why should you be exempt?????

Where did I indicate I should be exempt.....I was on a trip and missplaced my drivers license....Air Canada and Jazz sold me a return trip ticket and I was returning home, I had produced the required photo ID on the trip to Ontario and when I could not find it I showed sufficient proof of who I was.....credit cards....B.C. medical card....two Canadian pilots licenses, one Commercial Pilot License and one ATPL.....and with that I produced an Air France pilot photo ID.....

...who did she think was standing in front of her, Osama Bin Laden?

How in hell does Air Canada justify having their customers treated like crap when all I was doing was trying to do was get on their airplane that I had a return ticket for to go back home?

What should I have done, walked home because I had missplaced a B.C. drivers license?

So tell me Longtimer do you condone poor public relations in Canadas biggest airline?

Longtimer · Post by **Longtimer** » Tue Jul 03, 2007 7:10 pm

Cat Driver wrote:
How come some folks don't think that the requirements apply to them or somehow they should be exempt. The airlines are required to ask for Government issued photo ID........ Why should you be exempt?????
Where did I indicate I should be exempt.....I was on a trip and missplaced my drivers license....Air Canada and Jazz sold me a return trip ticket and I was returning home, I had produced the required photo ID on the trip to Ontario and when I could not find it I showed sufficient proof of who I was.....credit cards....B.C. medical card....two Canadian pilots licenses, one Commercial Pilot License and one ATPL.....and with that I produced an Air France pilot photo ID.....

...who did she think was standing in front of her, Osama Bin Laden?

How in hell does Air Canada justify having their customers treated like crap when all I was doing was trying to do was get on their airplane that I had a return ticket for to go back home?

What should I have done, walked home because I had missplaced a B.C. drivers license?

So tell me Longtimer do you condone poor public relations in Canadas biggest airline?

I suspect you may have met with the same requirement on Westjet. Of course attitude is everything and you do seem to want to buck any and all requirements that you disagree with.

Of course they have removed any element of confusion regarding this for your future flights.

What do travellers need to do to prepare?
Bring valid, government-issued identification (ID) with you to the airport!

New Identity Screening Regulations require all passengers planning to travel on Canadian domestic flights, who appear to be 12 years of age or older, to present the following ID before boarding:

One piece of valid government-issued PHOTO ID that shows name, date of birth, and gender
OR

Two pieces of valid government-issued ID (without a photo), one of which shows name, date of birth, and gender
AND

The name on the identification must match the name on the boarding pass.
All rules for flights to the United States and other international travel continue to apply.
The verification of passengers’ ID is already a practice followed by most major air carriers in Canada.

Top of Page What type of ID meets the new requirements?
For implementation of the Passenger Protect Program, the Identity Screening Regulations require either:

one piece of valid government-issued photo ID that shows name, date of birth and gender; or
two pieces of valid government-issued ID, at least one of which shows name, date of birth and gender.
The following are examples of valid government-issued ID that may be counted toward the requirements of the Identity Screening Regulations:

Passport
Citizenship card
Permanent Resident card
Driver’s licence
Health card
Provincial/Territorial Government Identification Cards (GIC)
Birth certificate
Record of Landing Form / Confirmation of Permanent Residence (IMM 5292)
Immigration documents issued to foreign nationals (Work Permit, Study Permit, Visitor Record, Temporary Resident Permit, Refugee Approved Status)
Canadian military ID
Federal police ID
Federal, Provincial, and Municipal government employee ID
Social Insurance Number (SIN) card
Old Age Security (OAS) Identification Card
Certificate of Indian Status (Status Card) issued by Indian and Northern Affairs Canada (INAC)

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Tue Jul 03, 2007 7:28 pm

Of course attitude is everything and you do seem to want to buck any and all requirements that you disagree with

What exactly is your problem with English comprehension Longtimer....

...I explained exactly what happened, are you so stupid you can't understand that I had missplaced my drivers license and produced sufficient ID to satisfy anyone with a brain that I was the customer who that ticket was sold to. How was I bucking any requirements????????????

Naw...Forget it, I have gone back and read some of your posts so don't bother answering me Longtimer....

I have flown on many, many of the worlds Airlines and Air Canada definately does not stand out for their customer relations skills.

Longtimer · Post by **Longtimer** » Tue Jul 03, 2007 7:32 pm

Cat Driver wrote:
Of course attitude is everything and you do seem to want to buck any and all requirements that you disagree with
What exactly is your problem with English comprehension Longtimer....

...I explained exactly what happened, are you so stupid you can't understand that I had missplaced my drivers license and produced sufficient ID to satisfy anyone with a brain that I was the customer who that ticket was sold to. How was I bucking any requirements????????????

Naw...Forget it, I have gone back and read some of your posts so don't bother answering me Longtimer....

I have flown on many, many of the worlds Airlines and Air Canada definately does not stand out for their customer relations skills.

Typical response. When all else fails, go for a personal attack. but I guess I could be accused of doing that first.
Re your Air France licence, was it current or expired? Reason I ask is that I get the impression you are well over 60 and don't all licences have an expiry date????
Oh, and by the by, Air Canada and Air Canada Jazz are two separate companies.

According to your story, she refused all of your ID, so how did you get home?

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Tue Jul 03, 2007 8:47 pm

Typical response. When all else fails, go for a personal attack. but I guess I could be accused of doing that first.

no comment.

However I'm real bored at the moment so I'll entertain myself by answering your post.

Re your Air France licence, was it current or expired?

Go back and read what I said....I produced an Air France Pilot I.D. it is not a license. It was given to me as a sign of appreciation for flying the Aeropostale Mail route commemorative flight from Toulouse France to Santiago Chile for them in October 1998.

Reason I ask is that I get the impression you are well over 60 and don't all licences have an expiry date????

My age has no bearing on the board of directors at Air France presenting me with one of their Air France Pilot I.D. cards, and it was given to me with no expiry date except my own expiry.

Oh, and by the by, Air Canada and Air Canada Jazz are two separate companies.

Yeh, there is no connection between Air canada and Jazz when you buy a ticket from Air canada, so a Jazz employee can treat customers with contempt and it has no reflection on Air Canada, huh?

According to your story, she refused all of your ID, so how did you get home?

Obviously on the flights I had a ticket for, the agent had no choice but to give me a boarding pass as I could prove who I was and posed no threat to the flight and had done nothing to be refused boarding.....my comments were directed at poor customer relations by a Jazz agent.

You seem to be a little fuzzy in your grasp of aviation licensing, so to help you understand how things work let me explain this age 60 thing.

Yes there is an age 60 rule, and in Europe there is also an age 65 rule.

I fly in Europe as a pilot under special authority authorizations that exempt me from the age rules......

Oh, and I also have an authorization from CASA in Australia to fly Australian registered aircraft....and in South Africa from their CAA.

Dick · Post by **Dick** » Tue Jul 03, 2007 9:04 pm

Cat Driver wrote:
Typical response. When all else fails, go for a personal attack. but I guess I could be accused of doing that first.
no comment.

However I'm real bored at the moment so I'll entertain myself by answering your post.

Re your Air France licence, was it current or expired?
Go back and read what I said....I produced an Air France Pilot I.D. it is not a license. It was given to me as a sign of appreciation for flying the Aeropostale Mail route commemorative flight from Toulouse France to Santiago Chile for them in October 1998.

Reason I ask is that I get the impression you are well over 60 and don't all licences have an expiry date????
My age has no bearing on the board of directors at Air France presenting me with one of their Air France Pilot I.D. cards, and it was given to me with no expiry date except my own expiry.

Oh, and by the by, Air Canada and Air Canada Jazz are two separate companies.
Yeh, there is no connection between Air canada and Jazz when you buy a ticket from Air canada, so a Jazz employee can treat customers with contempt and it has no reflection on Air Canada, huh?

According to your story, she refused all of your ID, so how did you get home?
Obviously on the flights I had a ticket for, the agent had no choice but to give me a boarding pass as I could prove who I was and posed no threat to the flight and had done nothing to be refused boarding.....my comments were directed at poor customer relations by a Jazz agent.

You seem to be a little fuzzy in your grasp of aviation licensing, so to help you understand how things work let me explain this age 60 thing.

Yes there is an age 60 rule, and in Europe there is also an age 65 rule.

I fly in Europe as a pilot under special authority authorizations that exempt me from the age rules......

Oh, and I also have an authorization from CASA in Australia to fly Australian registered aircraft....and in South Africa from their CAA.

Wow, I think you're a little, well, kookoo. Sorry, I just said it, I think everybody else was just thinking it.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Tue Jul 03, 2007 9:15 pm

Wow, I think you're a little, well, kookoo. Sorry, I just said it, I think everybody else was just thinking it.

Yeh, that's it...all that stuff is just made up.

Yeh, me claiming to have all those foreign licenses is just B.S. and I'm actually a nut case lurking here as a troll.

Longtimer · Post by **Longtimer** » Tue Jul 03, 2007 9:29 pm

Cat Driver wrote:
Typical response. When all else fails, go for a personal attack. but I guess I could be accused of doing that first.
no comment.

However I'm real bored at the moment so I'll entertain myself by answering your post.

Re your Air France licence, was it current or expired?
Go back and read what I said....I produced an Air France Pilot I.D. it is not a license. It was given to me as a sign of appreciation for flying the Aeropostale Mail route commemorative flight from Toulouse France to Santiago Chile for them in October 1998.

Reason I ask is that I get the impression you are well over 60 and don't all licences have an expiry date????
My age has no bearing on the board of directors at Air France presenting me with one of their Air France Pilot I.D. cards, and it was given to me with no expiry date except my own expiry.

Oh, and by the by, Air Canada and Air Canada Jazz are two separate companies.
Yeh, there is no connection between Air canada and Jazz when you buy a ticket from Air canada, so a Jazz employee can treat customers with contempt and it has no reflection on Air Canada, huh?

According to your story, she refused all of your ID, so how did you get home?
Obviously on the flights I had a ticket for, the agent had no choice but to give me a boarding pass as I could prove who I was and posed no threat to the flight and had done nothing to be refused boarding.....my comments were directed at poor customer relations by a Jazz agent.

You seem to be a little fuzzy in your grasp of aviation licensing, so to help you understand how things work let me explain this age 60 thing.

Yes there is an age 60 rule, and in Europe there is also an age 65 rule.

I fly in Europe as a pilot under special authority authorizations that exempt me from the age rules......

Oh, and I also have an authorization from CASA in Australia to fly Australian registered aircraft....and in South Africa from their CAA.

Whoops. confused your Air France Card with a legally issued Government ID. Sorry about that. As far as your other authorizations, not sure what they have to do with your problems with ACJazz but ....
Regarding the ticket. Yes there is a connection and that connection is similar to that of any interline ticket where one carrier issues the ticket and others participate in the carriage over the routing of the ticket. Does that give anyone a licence to treat a passenger badly, no of course not but based on what you posted if the rejection of your Air France ID as being a valid ID is what you constitute as being poor customer service then I can not agree with you.

CID · Post by **CID** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 6:03 am

Actually it is where I have a land line.....my summer place is over on the west coast of Vancouver Island and there is no land line telephone service......and cell service is very location sensitive and unreliable.

So you're posting on AvCanada using your cell phone? That's got to cost a ton!

pilotbzh · Post by **pilotbzh** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 7:13 am

where was your passport? When I travel I show my passport. nobody question me ever. got both French and Canadian always use the most convenient one............

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 7:31 am

So you're posting on AvCanada using your cell phone? That's got to cost a ton!

CID I have a Telus wireless modem for my lap top and for the first three months I can stay on line all day at no extra cost....then it will be billed by the megabite after I exceed the maximum the contract allows.

where was your passport? When I travel I show my passport. nobody question me ever. got both French and Canadian always use the most convenient one............

My passport was at home, I never carry it in Canada in case I lose it.

Longtimer.......why can't you understand what I posted?

Does that give anyone a licence to treat a passenger badly, no of course not but based on what you posted if the rejection of your Air France ID as being a valid ID is what you constitute as being poor customer service then I can not agree with you.

I stated clearly that I could not find my B.C. drivers license as I had left it in a coat pocket and it was in my luggage......the only I.D. I had in my wallet with a picture on it was the Air France card, so with that picture and my name on it along with all the other stuff I had, would that not identify who I was????????

It was about poor customer relations on the part of the agent.....