Still taking low timers?

[flyinphil]

College grads win, hands down.

In your opinion

I two, have many years sitting with both and I'll take the military guys. No. I am not ex-military.

They just have access to better training at that stage. Yes they have egos, but so have a lot of the college types I have met over the years.

[flyinphil]

.............. There is no comparing a 200 hour civilian pilot to his/her military contemporary.

I Hope nothing goes wrong

I am not going to jump into the civilian vs military debate because there are just as many wankers in both but that has to be one of the most arrogant statements I have read on here.

Being that I am not military and have never been, arrogance is an impossibility. Just an opinion based on experience with both groups.

[Jaques Strappe]

Roger that

[DAVE THE RAVE]

Lets call a spade a spade. At 200 hours, you're not even qualified to wipe the sweat off a pitcher of beer.

Dude, I have 5000 hours and I can't wipe off the beer. Hell I can't even pour a good pint. That's why I have the cute bar maid do that for me.

Maybe Flyinphil wasn't qualified to fly a jet at 200 Hours. That's cool, 'cause there are plenty of 200 hour wonders in line behind him good enough to make the grade. I fly with 200 hour wonders on a regular basis. They have been well trained and come to the flightdeck with a great attitude, good CRM and flying skills. If there is a problem I'm confident they will do a good job. For those of you who freak, and say "they don't have experience to make a good decision"...guess what...that's why there is a captain. These 200 hour F/Os are in the best position to see and learn what goes on, then later down the road they become captains. Neat idea!

My friend started at my airline with 180 hours at the age of 19. He is now 25 and a captain for a year. I would have anyone in my family fly with him anytime.

[flyinphil]

Sorry, but anyone that starts a sentence with "Dude" isn't yet entitled to an opinion..

[DAVE THE RAVE]

Sorry, but anyone that starts a sentence with "Dude" isn't yet entitled to an opinion..

Thank you facist leader man. Those of us who are not as refined as you will cancel our avcanada on-line memberships ASAP so you can disparage the rest of us.

[Cat Driver]

flyinphil wrote:
Lets call a spade a spade. At 200 hours, you're not even qualified to wipe the sweat off a pitcher of beer.

Total time is a very poor benchmark of ability.

With proper training low time pilots can safely fly demanding types of flying.

My first commercial job was ag. flying in the tobacco fields of southern Ontario I had 252 hours total time when I was hired and given a 25 hour course flying ag work and never ever bent an airplane to this day.

Same with the airline training, low time pilots with type specific training will do just fine as long as the selection process weeds out the incompetent.

[The Raven]

Sorry, but anyone that starts a sentence with "Dude" isn't yet entitled to an opinion..

Nor is anyone who doesn't know the difference between 'two' and 'too'. See your third previous post Phil.

[flyinphil]

Sorry, but anyone that starts a sentence with "Dude" isn't yet entitled to an opinion..

Nor is anyone who doesn't know the difference between 'two' and 'too'. See your third previous post Phil.

Yes, you got me with that one. I normally do pretty well with my 2's

Either way, lighten the @#$! up! Note the laughing emoticon. That implied a funny line or a joke...

[flyinphil]

flyinphil wrote:
Lets call a spade a spade. At 200 hours, you're not even qualified to wipe the sweat off a pitcher of beer.

Total time is a very poor benchmark of ability.

With proper training low time pilots can safely fly demanding types of flying.

My first commercial job was ag. flying in the tobacco fields of southern Ontario I had 252 hours total time when I was hired and given a 25 hour course flying ag work and never ever bent an airplane to this day.

Same with the airline training, low time pilots with type specific training will do just fine as long as the selection process weeds out the incompetent.

Most of us did the most challenging flying in our early years Cat. This is a large commercial air service, not a single person ag plane. The paying public deserves better and better are available.

[Traf]

Cat Driver, unfortunately Jazz has no intention of any specialized training. It will be the cheapest, fastest cross your fingers bullshit deal known to man.

Everyone is under the impression that Jazz is doing this to get the best pilots and shape them into some Jazz super pilot mold. Make no mistake, Jazz is doing this to save money. Nothing else. Nothing more. Jazz will do anything it can to save a buck. Hiring kids is just one step in a movement to have a pay-to-play airline like in the US. For thos eof us at Jazz, it sucks big time because we will have to be the ones baby sitting these fucking clowns, not management. When the day comes that they have an accident, you can bet that the boss won't be holding anyone's hand and saying, "we are in this together.

I am a pilot. If you want me to baby sit, pay me more. OVER!!!!

[SQ]

flyinphil
this thread was interesting and people were saying interesting thing untill you come in and start yelling about all and nothing, just trying to get smart wich is the stupidest thing to do.


dark helmet
I can't answer all your questions as aviation is a very new thing for me but here's what I know about europe :

the very important thing to know first is that flying nowadays is a rich people entertainment. it is very hard to begin flying as we do in canada. fuel is expensive, aeroclubs also are. like golf or tennis few decades ago, this is an elite's pleasure.
I use the word elite and you'll understand why later.

I know 1 of easy jet's chief pilot 737 instructor , he learned to fly in canada. He's in charge to train the cadet for the 737. they're not teached to fly VFR but only IFR since the beginning (not the first 40 hrs of course concerning flight theory) . each hour is efficiently used in 1 purpose : pilot a 737 and execute each procedure. when they go out from CTC wing (training center)they have a 3 year contract minimum and a salary of 38000£, knowing that the middle salary IN LONDON is 65000 £. but you're not obliged to live in london, are you ? I'd say that is a decent salary to begin when you're young and want to quit parents basement.
in france, most of the air france pilot are the strongest guys you'll ever meet in math. Why ? because in france everything is based on math. doctor ? be good at maths. pilot ?be good at math. any interesting job with good salary : be good at math.
here comes the elite again...
You have to succeed the hardest math program in france (math sup/ math spé), then succeed the ENAC (civilian aviation high school) competition and finish it. following your rank at the end, you'll be sent to Air france, or other employer.
Elite, again...
for instance: guess what was my banker reaction when I phoned him to get a loan for my aviation studies ?
"Are you sure you're able to to do this ?"
planes pilot are god in France... you said Elite ?!?


now that I've been in canada for 2 years and rebuilding my life from scratch I'd say that here there is no such a hard selection at the beginning of life (school), wich is pretty cool because people can change their mind and evoluate with their desir wich is a great luck= more flexibility, more movment, more open minded people, less a priori.

That being said, the canadian system in aviation is a good mix between old school and reconsideration of this system wich is the purpose of all this thread. Experience is important, a good attitude is almost important.
hours ? Cat made the point about that.
in an ideal world we should all have a young pilot attitude willing to learn more, and gain an old captain's experience.


there are several answers to the question we're discussing about and different examples all over the world, we have to admitt that different ways to do also work.

learn is a water of youth.

[flyinphil]

SQ, allow me then to continue... Canada is not an elitist society. We don't as a society, define ourselves by position and don't consider priviledge to be a birth right. If the aviation industry was not so mult-faceted in Canada, we would also have higher required educational standards. Fortunately, there are a number of aviation occupations that do not require scholastic achievers.

My point all along, was exactly as Traf pointed out above. There is no "Cadet" program in place. There is currently no "multi-crew" licence in place. These people will receive the very least training possible to fill the right seat of a transport jet aircraft involved in commercial air service. Thus my comment on the military. Military pilots are mission specific trained and even then, you won't see a 200 hour guy flying the Prime Minister.

This country has plenty of experienced pilots to draw on without creating a new level of pilot. This is a salary control measure, nothing more. It won't enhance safety and will not fill a void. There is no void. The airlines need to do what every other industry does and attract and retain the best people with compensation.

BTW, on the internet, THIS IS YELLING.

[Inverted2]

Jazz just wants the cheapest, lowest time pilots to fill the right seat that can't go on to Westjet once they realize how poor the pay is.

"Safety is our first priority" - MY ARSE!

[RFN]

I'm not terribly familiar with aviation in Europe, so forgive me if I am wrong.
Would B.A. and Lufthansa still want to hire 0 experience cadet grads if they had THOUSANDS of pilots in the country, with years of experience flying in difficult conditions?
If I was B.A., I would be laughing my ass off at the Canadians who are CHOOSING to hire pilots who have never had picked up ice, landed on slick runways, used weather radar like their life depended on it etc.
I am sure that if B.A. had a pile of resumes with actual experience, say like more than 3000hrs, they would hire them and train them to fly "the B.A." way.
Hiring a low time college grad is only so they can't leave, period. I feel sorry for the company, the line indoc Captains, and the new-hires themselves. By doing this, the company has cheapened the worth of all F/Os at the company.

[merlin]

Holy Crap!!!! quit your bitching men!!!!!!!!!! they hire who ever they bloody hell want!

Although they should pay who ever they choose to hire a lot better than they do. That is one of the reason they don't have my resume!

[The Raven]

Holy Crap!!!! quit your bitching men!!!!!!!!!! they hire who ever they bloody hell want!

Although they should pay who ever they choose to hire a lot better than they do. That is one of the reason they don't have my resume!

Exactly why I like to have young college grads as my First Officers. No bitching from them...they just do the job, and do it well.

[Jaques Strappe]

Exactly why I like to have young college grads as my First Officers. No bitching from them...they just do the job, and do it well.

Are you sure it just isn't because they don't know any better and therefore will never question you? Reason number 586 why I would rather have someone with some experience to share.

[Traf]

I believe the airlines have spent countless hours in developing CRM courses so that all crewmembers have something to offer rather than just having a seat occupied so that the captain can rule the ship unquestioned.

Will the 250 hour "SOP CAPABLE" college grad have the knowledge and the balls to correct a captain that is fucking up? I doubt it!

Money is taking precident over safety here and we all know that that has resulted in good things happening in the past here in Aviation land.

[The Raven]

I believe the airlines have spent countless hours in developing CRM courses so that all crewmembers have something to offer rather than just having a seat occupied so that the captain can rule the ship unquestioned.

Will the 250 hour "SOP CAPABLE" college grad have the knowledge and the balls to correct a captain that is fucking up? I doubt it!

Money is taking precident over safety here and we all know that that has resulted in good things happening in the past here in Aviation land.

Exactly my point. The college grads have taken CRM courses and will probably take another one when they join the airline. They are not afraid to question the Captain.

Also, you have just admitted that it is the guy with the experience that is, as you say it, "fucking up".

Let me make one thing clear. Though I am not opposed to a 250 hour college grad as my First Officer, the ideal would be a recent college grad with about 2000 hours under his/her belt. The colleges are putting out incredibly intelligent pilots these days.

My experience has shown me that the pilots that join an airline at an older age often have a chip on their shoulder, are jaded, feel the world owes them, and have forgotten most of their IFR rules and regulations. Let's face it, how many of you that have 10,000 hours could pass a Commercial Exam. I know, I couldn't. To be honest, I would be hard pressed to pass a Private Exam.

Anyway, obviously you know my views. There is a great lightning show going on outside and I think I'll pour a glass of wine and go out and enjoy it.

[Traf]

Yes I have seen experienced guys fucking up. Who hasn't? The question is, will a 250 hour pilot who is competent in SOPs and a fresh IFR going to realize exactly what is going on and then have the nuts to speak up?

I am a college grad and have instructed post graduation and personally, from what I have seen, I would sooner fly witha guy that the ink has dried on his IFR over an egghead that got good marks in school.

[. .]

I believe the airlines have spent countless hours in developing CRM courses so that all crewmembers have something to offer rather than just having a seat occupied so that the captain can rule the ship unquestioned.

Will the 250 hour "SOP CAPABLE" college grad have the knowledge and the balls to correct a captain that is fucking up? I doubt it!

Money is taking precident over safety here and we all know that that has resulted in good things happening in the past here in Aviation land.

My personal belief is that they don't know what fucking up is. They have 0 operational experience, and really have no scale to judge normal operations from impending doom. As we all know, most accidents start with something small happening, which uncaught allows other larger errors to catch up and overwhelm the crew. The ability to catch and challenge the small things, will be the greatest challenge.

[Jaques Strappe]

Raven

You are right, I would be hard pressed to pass a commercial exam. However, with some study time, shouldn't be an issue. I do appreciate what you are saying though, how about this for an illustration of where I may be coming from:

In Canada, you can obtain an ATPL by flying right seat in a circuit. We know that. The government has deemed you as capable of being an "Airline" pilot by issuing you an Airline Transport License. Wow!

Now, lets say that a newly minted ATPL pilot gets a job with a charter company and said charter company lands a contract flying government personnel around. Oh but wait, as with most government contracts, there is a minimum experience requirement, usually 500 to 1000 hours multi PIC. So, the government has basically said, you can be an Airline Transport Pilot .........so long as we are not riding in the back!

Even Transport realizes that experience counts for something well beyond an education. There is no doubt that you can take a kid and make him a Zero to Hero in 3 years. Like Transport however, I don't want be riding in the back.

As for your argument about chips on shoulders, I would argue that rather than generalizing, perhaps it is an individual thing. Presently, I am flying an Airplane that has been flooded with new hires from very diverse backgrounds. We have ex-340 Captains, 767 Captains, Herc Commanders, Lear Captains, 727 Captains, Dash 8 and RJ Captains, MD 83 Captains, among many others, all now first year F/O's at Air Canada. Basically, the gamut is well represented. Nobody I have flown with has had a chip on their shoulder about who they were or where they came from. And for me, I feel much more comfortable leaving the flight deck to take a piss when there is someone with some experience minding the shop.

I would almost but not quite argue that the kid is more likely to have the chip on his shoulder because he hasn't been around long enough to be humbled yet.

Just my opinion of course, and you know what they say about opinions.

[SQ]

you don't want to see young grads on a right seat with 250 hrs because it didn't happened to you.
If it would have, nobody would be shocked.

B.A employes people to keep them. Air france and KLM too.
pilots in Europe fly really much less than in canada : a 5000 hrs pilot is considered as being very experienced for AF.
People also want to stay at Air france because this is a private company owned and sponsored by french state (nobody imagine being layed off from that place) , captain pay after 5 years is more than 15000 euros /month, with no ramp nor instruction as it is not a payed job in france, nor B1900 hrs, nor Twotter in -45° neither low T° correction or snow, icy runways etc etc... only a chair, maths book, some simulator and a big brain, but how come they managed to land their 747 in YUL in winter ?!

sure, those airlines don't hire ONLY cadets off course. One of you 10'000 hrs guy with lot of experience upnorth should apply to Air France, BA, lufthansa swissair and KLM just for fun. it would be great to read the answers: sir, you have a lot of experience on light A/C like twotter, B1900 or Dash8/100, nevertheless we are not sure you'd be qualified for our 747 and A330/340 fleet as you have never flown heavy A/C before.

but all of you guys are right : build your experience first.

[flyinphil]

People also want to stay at Air france because this is a private company owned and sponsored by french state (nobody imagine being layed off from that place) , captain pay after 5 years is more than 15000 euros /month, with no ramp nor instruction as it is not a payed job in france, nor B1900 hrs, nor Twotter in -45° neither low T° correction or snow, icy runways etc etc... only a chair, maths book, some simulator and a big brain, but how come they managed to land their 747 in YUL in winter ?!

Well, I know you are struggling a little with the language SQ but I really don't understand your point.

You are saying they can land a 747 in YUL in the winter without light airplane experience? I don't know what your point is. Sorry.

I guess the "math books and big brains" let them down in YYZ though.