Float Pilots Needed - 500 Hrs + on Water

[Widow]

Bumping this because I may be looking into getting this started ...

[Lommer]

Is it time for a union - No. Is it time for a professional association - Yes. The difference? A union's mission is improving life for it's members; while a professional association is about improving its industry for the sake of the public. A union will not work because of simple supply and demand; a professional association could maybe work because the public, gov't, and responsible operators could support it. That said, a professional association IS NOT about improving wages. A professional association could focus on improved licencing/training, maintenance and duty days/fatigue. These are things that would incidentally make our lives as pilots better, but the primary focus is making aviation safer for everyone.

[Widow]

The ability of unions to improve life for its members has an awfully nice trickle down effect. The way every union supports every other labour movement (union or not) is pretty incredible to witness too ... Unions fight for better working conditions on the whole, including duty days/fatigue, etc. and can lobby gov't for change with the added force of the entire labour movement.

Who starts a professional association? The government isn't likely to help and considering the industry is so apathetic in and of itself, it isn't going to get itself started from within. How do you start a professional association from without?

I agree the focus is making aviation safer for everyone - the sooner the better.

[Reality]

All of you chose this career, quit your goddamn whining!!!! If your not happy with what your making go back to school or get a trade. The amount of work most of you do as pilots is minimal, remember you fly an airplane, no different than driving a truck. whine, whine bitch, bitch, it never ends.

[Capt. Cool]

All of you chose this career, quit your goddamn whining!!!! If your not happy with what your making go back to school or get a trade. The amount of work most of you do as pilots is minimal, remember you fly an airplane, no different than driving a truck. whine, whine bitch, bitch, it never ends.

Sorry there BSN, after reading this entire post I don't see much whining. What I see is alot of educated posts, people trying to fight for what they believe in, and bouncing ideas off each other trying to make changes for the good of this industry. It's too bad the world wasn't more like you where people would just shut up and take it whatever way was it was given to them. You would be one of these guys that are putting this post down.. but I'm sure if it ever got going and benefited you, you would hop right abord the train and reap the benefits. People are trying to make long overdue changes here- I'm sorry you don't see that, and for someone who says flying is no different than driving a truck, this post is obviously beyond your level so for the time being please just keep your mouth shut as we don't want to hear it.

[Cat Driver]

I'm sorry you don't see that, and for someone who says flying is no different than driving a truck, this post is obviously beyond your level

Actually he is not far off the mark, flying in a lot of ways is easier than driving a truck.

However the 703 level of the industry is badly in need of improvement working conditions wise.

[Lommer]

Widow, I suppose you're right on a lot of points. And a west coast float pilot's union could work, but you really have to be careful of new or smaller operators coming in and undercutting the unionized shops; in aviation it seems all-too-easy to do. One also has to be very careful how the union is portrayed in the public eye - we all know people are incredibly sensitive to airfares, going so far as to take rediculous schedules and layovers and ignoring safety concerns just to save a $10 on a trip. If the union ever comes to be portrayed as a group of pilots out to gouge the public, then levels of gov't other that TC will start to take an interest in its affairs too. I hope you're aware of the minefield that must be navigated, and I wish you the best of luck.

[Reality]

Sorry there BSN, after reading this entire post I don't see much whining. What I see is alot of educated posts, people trying to fight for what they believe in, and bouncing ideas off each other trying to make changes for the good of this industry. It's too bad the world wasn't more like you where people would just shut up and take it whatever way was it was given to them. You would be one of these guys that are putting this post down.. but I'm sure if it ever got going and benefited you, you would hop right abord the train and reap the benefits. People are trying to make long overdue changes here- I'm sorry you don't see that, and for someone who says flying is no different than driving a truck, this post is obviously beyond your level so for the time being please just keep your mouth shut as we don't want to hear it.[/quote]

First off, capt.cool, this is a public forum and everyone is entitled to say what is ever on their mind within certain boundaries and I, just like everyone else can state my opinion so save the attitude! If you think that a union will help the bush industry, you are nuts, unions protect incompetant workers in my opinion, you want wages to go up drastically for a pretty easy job (By the way I Have been flying floats for 8 years, loading evrything under the sun, still pretty easy compared to most trades!!!) you don't think of the fall out of operators paying more than they can afford. I ask you this Capt. Cool, what is the biggest clientele for your "bush op" ...... tourism maybe? What is the american dollar doing right now????? How are the lodges doing financially in your area right now?????? My point is, that if tourism slows down, and the lodges you fly for are loosing profits over the exchange, what does that do for your job???? Capt. Cool, sit down and look at the whole picture, not just the fact that you think that you don't get paid enough for flying an airplane..... I chose this career because I love what I do, I know what it cost's to get into it, I still have the line of credit to prove it. If any of you are worth more money and you deserve it, you will get it... That is the way it should work, not a union fighting for more money for a lazy whiner that doesn't...... You say a union will help the industry, I say it will desroy it...
P.S. Capt Cool who the hell do you think you are that you can state your opinion and I can't state mine...., you must be one of those that can only keep their jobs if there was a union

[Capt. Cool]

First off BSN, try reading my post again. Where on here did I say that people weren't aloud to express there opinions. Thats what people do on these forums! What you stated in your first post was not an opinion. Hence the shut your mouth. What you said is for people to stop there goddamn whining and bitching. What kind of an opinion on the stated topic is that?? I notice in your second post it seems like you have some good issues that could maybe be discussed. Why you wouldn't have just said "I don't think this will work because..." and then stated your opinions is beyond me. What you were doing was putting down the people that are trying to make things better for who?? YOU! Thats right. People wanting to better YOUR industry, and you have the nerve to call them whiners and bitchers. But like I said, your at the back of the line amongst the people taking action, but you'd be at the front of the line with your hand out if the changes were made.

Secondly, where in my post did I say I was for or opposed to a union? I simply said that people are trying to make changes to better this industry. I'm sorry again if you don't think changes need to be made, but i'll tell you what they are long overdue. If you think 4 or 5 dollars an hour is a good starting wage then you've got other issues. So maybe next time instead of making an idiotic, waste of time post trying to put people down, you could make a post like your second one stating some facts and they can be discussed. This post is trying to do something constructive and doesn't have time for ignorant people like yourself.

and P.S. I've never worked for a unionized company and I certainly don't right now!

[orbit]

because we like what we do we get less pay...not to mention there are risk we take..
Very good point on this wage issue after all being said and done, do the math and the numbers are sobering!

all I can say is something to yhink about!

[floatman]

BSN, you have been flying floats for 8 years.. that makes you a regular.. what province do you work in, for how many months and what do you make a year?

[SuperchargedRS]

I understand what you are saying compilot. It would require a lot of co-operation amongst the fellowship, however, this union would not be for the hundreds of guys who have a CPL and a float rating, rather for those who have spent some time in the trenches and were marketable as "Bush Pilots", the one's that get to the top half of the resume pile on chief pilot X's desk. That's not to say that the low-time guys would be excluded, quite the opposite. They would be encouraged to join in a junior capacity until which point they had achieved a certain level of competancy...maybe 250 hours on floats (one season)? Then beyond that, they would be categorized into groups... 500-1000 hours...1000-2000hrs...Radial time...Turbine time...and paid according to experience. The union could also be instrumental in securing decent positions for up-and-comers to cut their teeth and enter into the profession.
As far as limiting the number of entries into the CPL system, well, just wouldn't be fair. BUT, making the rating much more comprehensive, with a flight test and written (much like the IFR ticket) might serve to separate the serious guys from the wannabes. And as for the guys who would work for free, well, they won't be around long. I think it's a karma thing.

I dont know what you mean by jr. level, but if you cut the low time guys out of the game (and there are a lot of low time guys out there), you basicly turn them into scabs, why deal with the union crap and have to pay top dollar for this guy when I can hire a green pilot for a fraction the price, sure the insurance will be high but the net profit will be higher out of that pilot. Not to mention you are putting the low time guys into the same position you are bitching about... and that deflates you creditibility, all for me screw them, right? anywho

anyway in my not very humble opinion, you have to open the gates to all that have a cpl or just forget it

[floatman]

I dont know what you mean by jr. level, but if you cut the low time guys out of the game (and there are a lot of low time guys out there), you basicly turn them into scabs, why deal with the union crap and have to pay top dollar for this guy when I can hire a green pilot for a fraction the price, sure the insurance will be high but the net profit will be higher out of that pilot. Not to mention you are putting the low time guys into the same position you are bitching about... and that deflates you creditibility, all for me screw them, right? anywho

anyway in my not very humble opinion, you have to open the gates to all that have a cpl or just forget it

That's not to say that the low-time guys would be excluded, quite the opposite. They would be encouraged to join in a junior capacity until which point they had achieved a certain level of competancy...maybe 250 hours on floats (one season)? Then beyond that, they would be categorized into groups... 500-1000 hours...1000-2000hrs...Radial time...Turbine time...and paid according to experience. The union could also be instrumental in securing decent positions for up-and-comers to cut their teeth and enter into the profession.

Not quite sure how you figured anyone would be "cut out".

And why deal with the "union crap"?
Well if we were all in the same association and were all together for the common good, then an operator would have no choice but to hire from that pool if he wanted someone with experience.

Scabs will be scabs and scabs will get known as scabs then scabs won't be welcome except for where scabs are wanted, and when they see the rest of us making twice the income and having the security of the association to demand good maintenance then the scabs will want to join.

No one said it would be easy or quick. Hell, I don't need the union, I'm making good bucks now but am not afraid of working towards something for the common good. There is a captive and concerned audience here on AvCanada and it is a different ballgame from when guys like CLguy and Cat Driver were talking unions in the 70's. It could all be organized online.

[Cat Driver]

There is a captive and concerned audience here on AvCanada and it is a different ballgame from when guys like CLguy and Cat Driver were talking unions in the 70's. It could all be organized online.

I agree completely.

[SuperchargedRS]

Not quite sure how you figured anyone would be "cut out".

This is why I said I don't know what you mean by in a "Jr" capacity, can you clarify

...and I am totally agree with the formation of a union, I just want to know what you mean by "jr" ?

[floatman]

Supercharged,

Everything I have said here to this point is from the hip, off the cuff and literally out of my ass. I need more guys like you and everyone else to get creative and help get the parameters defined.

Sorry, but in my opinion, a float rating doesn't make a Bush Pilot, any doctor can buy a float rating and a 206 on floats. They will NEVER get in. IMHO, a year or 2 in the game with a good reference would go a long way.

Thoughts, suggestions, perspectives?

[Highflyinpilot]

well, ill agree, pilots deserve alot more then what they get, Its the reason i got outta aviation, mainly because I realize that my daughter deserves to plant her feet somewhere, have a nice house and yard to run around an play, not having to move every other month,. Avaition couldnt offer that(which i wish it could have, because i love flying). every body is in a diffrent situation, be it bachlor(ette), family and kids etc. etc. and thats why peoples thoughts will vary massively, being there current situation.



All in all, pilots have a huge responsibility, and no compensation for it.

[Meecka]

You say you'd like to make "the big bucks", how about "the fair bucks". Are you worth less per hour than a carpenter?, a mechanic?

Speaking of responsibility... Please folks don't forget that we mere mechanics are NOT low brow, mouth breathing knucle draggers. We are for the most part, fairly highly trained, educated individuals. Many take fierce pride in what we do. I am ALWAYS aware of the fact that if I have a "Bad day" people may loose their lives.

That being said... I do know that bush drivers, for the most part, get the shitty end of the stick. The poor guy just starting out gets it the worst. The whole aviation industry as a whole needs to see some change... Pilots and mechanics both need to be treated with more respect for what they do. To be treated less as disposable stevedores, and more like the valuable talent they truly are.

Just my thoughts, sorry to stick my nose into your thread.

[SuperchargedRS]

Supercharged,

Everything I have said here to this point is from the hip, off the cuff and literally out of my ass. I need more guys like you and everyone else to get creative and help get the parameters defined.

Sorry, but in my opinion, a float rating doesn't make a Bush Pilot, any doctor can buy a float rating and a 206 on floats. They will NEVER get in. IMHO, a year or 2 in the game with a good reference would go a long way.

Thoughts, suggestions, perspectives?

Ok, I see what you are getting at, but first why would a rich dude (making big money elsewhere) care to be in our union in a member capacity????
And secondly if someone rich guy swinging a big stick who isn’t really a REAL pilot (just some guy that flys 20 hrs a year to impress his wife and/or mistress) wants to stand behind us…your going to turn him away? It’s not like he is going to steal any jobs

But. O.K. this is how I would do it
Pre-Reqs to get in to the "Bush Pilot’s Union", CPL + Float + $50 bucks, (for union functions and to keep people who are not serious from joining)

Now if you want to block (or even somewhat block) the 300hr guy with a CPL and float rating, you know what is going to happen, he is going to work for the operator that doesn’t want to deal with the unions (see my other post), because if I were that guy and the union wouldn't have me THAT’S WHAT I WOULD DO....wouldn't you?



To reinitiate
Pre-Reqs to get in to the "Bush Pilot Union": CPL + Float + $50 bucks

(or something like that) though I would change the fee to a optional donation if the person was a grad from a flight college (salute, confed blah blah blah) as this shows a document-able 2yr commitment, i.e. they are serious

Now for all the rich “doctor” types that don’t have the all the pre-reqs (i.e. CPL), I would let them be a “contributor/supporter” but not a member; that way they could stand behind us, and still have there name in our records to use for any political resume stuff, after all if they want to stand behind us, why not give them some recognition.

[A2G]

I was taken here from another thread, and I haven't read all the posts, but I just want to say that I think it's so dangerous, and so redneck ass backwards, that professionals who are in control of human lives and expensive machinery do not get the pay or working conditions they deserve, or at the very least need to stay safe. What we need to remove are those typical people who suffer from the "I did it that way and now so will you" mentality.

Where are all the leaders, the strong, the courageous....the real men who are in the position to, and willing to, help improve conditions for those who follow???

Aviation unfortunately seems to be filled with some real weak and lame dorks who are only out for their own interests, and even then they don't seem to be able to stand for even that.

[lowaltituderecord]

Isn't it just a job in the end, like any other job, you get sick of it?

Thought a lot about flying for a living, even quitting a job I do now that I went to university for, in the end I'd just rather go rent a plane and fly for fun.

I am addicted to flying in IMC though......

[xsbank]

I have a friend who flies out of Cairo in a smallish jet and he makes $18,000 US per month, X 12. The money is out there for some pilots. I have said in another thread that if the company does not have a business plan that can pay a pilot a living wage and by that I mean a place to live in that you own, a car made this century, a pension plan and other benefits, there is no place for them in this industry.

I was in a union in BC in the 70's and I made more flying a Beav then than you are saying is possible now. Let's see, 36 years on and the wages are numerically worse?

What's wrong with this scenario?

Bring on Widow's 'college!'

[yvanddivans]

You might want to talk to those guys:

http://translate.google.ca/translate?hl ... pbq.com%2F

(google translate for www.apbq.com ... a french pilots and bush pilots association.)

[Carrier]

Those who are pondering on the rate for a particular job should remember that JOB is an acronym for “Just Over Broke!”

Back in about 2000 in its editorial on salaries, Wings magazine pointed out that in Canada you are unlikely to change your financial status by having a job. To become wealthy, you need to inherit it, marry it, win it (lottery) or create it as an entrepreneur. Be assured that the rate for most jobs is set by supply and demand and that most employers will pay no more than they have to. When companies are forced to pay over the market rate for jobs to avoid having their businesses damaged (by strikes) they become uncompetitive. This situation ultimately corrects itself, as illustrated by various legacy air carriers and a couple of American car makers (bankrupts).

You are selling your skills and experience on the job market. If you believe you are not being paid enough you always have the right to shop around and move to another employer who pays more. If you find that other employers do not pay more for your level of skill and experience then you are probably being paid the current market rate for what you are able to offer. One way out of this is to improve your skills, qualifications and experience and make yourself more valuable on the job market. A third option is to move into another career that pays more. This might entail gaining new qualifications and experience, involving increased front end costs and lower income in expectation of future higher income, for all of which you will have to weigh the pros and cons.

Another option that many people accept in order to get by is to have more than one job. This is not ideal but is reality for many. It should not be needed because in the 21st century there is a reasonable expectation that any job will enable a person to survive at a reasonable minimum standard of living, as in pay for accommodation, food, clothing, medical treatment, car, the occasional vacation, etc. It should not be necessary for the job holder to have to deplete savings and thereby subsidise the employer. Regrettably that situation exists far too often in aviation.

Bottom-feeding companies that exploit employees by paying less than a liveable wage do not deserve any respect. We should all work to improve the situation and weed out such operators. Apart from employee treatment, another reason is safety. If they are prepared to be cheap and cut corners with employees then it is a fair and reasonable assumption that they are likely to do the same in other areas, such as maintenance, operating procedures, overloading, etc.

[Dash-7wannaby]

I totally agree we need an professional association rather than a union. In this line of work government help along with other outside help is needed . Unions tend to scare people. Hiring low time guys because they will work for free is not safe. With an association we could slowly feed the new guys into the system with fare rates and slowly let them earn the big money. Thats my own opinion and i think it fare. Happy flying.