It seems that we are often being delayed or forced into VFR departures when departing the same airports as Pasco even though we are first to depart.
For the sake of Airmanship and courtesy, please Pasco pilots do not request your clearance untill ready to taxi. Especially if another aircraft is obviously starting up beside you and will clearly be taxiing/departing first.
I hope it is only naivety(sp) not intentionally playing dirty cause that would just be rude.
had the same problem with these guys last year. I had two engines running and was ready to go..... they hadn't even started their engines and were getting there IFR. really poor airmanship!
Its probably straight out of their SOPs; there is probably a place in the checklist and their CP probably would approve. Are you talking their small 'planes or large?
We always had our clearance before starting engines in corporate - you get your flight plan from Universal or some such and program the fms, the cojo does the preliminary checks and obtains the clearance; when the captain arrives the checklist is gone over up to engine start and the clearance is discussed and fms modified, if necessary etc., the captain greets the passengers and closes the door, the cojo starts the first engine when the door hits the jamb and is starting the second as the captain takes his seat and as soon as he's strapped in the rest of the checklist is run while #2 asks for taxi.
Most jurisdictions don't use the first-in first-out procedure we use in little old Canada. I suspect our procedures have more to do with unions than with sequencing and separation.
Pasco's method is still a pain in the butt for everyone else here. Why don't you try getting your clearance before you start engines too? You have a reasonable window before its cancelled....
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"What's it doing now?"
"Fly low and slow and throttle back in the turns."
Perhaps you folks you should approach NavCanada to inquire as to the feasability of implementing PTC's (Pre-Taxi Clearences) at the airports in question. These work well at the FSS airports where they are currently in place and allows those operators who require their clearence prior to engine start to receive it without impacting those that choose to wait until the aircraft is ready to move or already moving before requesting their IFR clearence.
It has always been a pet peeve of mine that FSS will not give you your clearance until you are at the button of the runway and have been waiting "an appropriate" length of time. I asked a FSS type why and got a bunch of procedure gobbledygook. It is usually the first one there that gets the clearance. Either that or the one with the strongest transmitter. becomes a pain in the ass when you have to program the FMS and get a clearance where the only resemblance to what is filed is the call sign.
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The average pilot, despite the somewhat swaggering exterior, is very much capable of such feelings as love, affection, intimacy and caring.
These feelings just don't involve anyone else.
We have this thick book of rules (well we have MANY thick books of rules for various things, but I digress) which tells us what we may do and when.
We COULD bend the rules and get a clearance before you start up. Then you would have the same situation the OP mentioned. Which one of you should we piss off?
99 times out of 100, the second I finish your advisory I am on the phone attempting to get your clearance from ATC. How fast I get it and relay it to you is not MY choice nor am I waiting for the "appropriate length of time". It takes what time it takes, it's not a deliberate attempt to make you wait.
you shouldn't have to piss anyone off fssister.think we pilots have a certain obligation to our fellow pilot...that airmanship thingy.SOP or not to grab a clearance before start up, and i've never heard of such an SOP, we are still able to exercise judgement and common sense, aren't we?
Pasco has no SOP that says when or when not to obtain a clearance. What it comes down to is the individual crew, as it does for 97% of other operators in and out of these airports.
I can recall countless similar nuisances with several other local carriers.
Next time verbally ask the PASCO pilots why they are asking for clearance when they are not even ready. Then mention that you are ready to go and they are holding you up. ASk them politely to quit doing it. After it is heard on the radio by many what they are doing I am sure they will want to save themselves the embarrassment and quit doing it. Just be polite about it.
anywaiss wrote:it's not in their SOPS most of them are just a bunch of instructors who got hired because they have PIC.. they don't know any better
Nothing wrong with having an instructor background. You may lack operational experience BUT you have a better understanding of procedures ect.....Which is better? neither, it all depends on the pilot (six of one half a dozen of the other)
BTW Being former instructors doesn’t excuse bad educate; just the opposite. As an instructor you should be better versed in it. Pilot educate is one of the things you should be teaching as an instructor. Unless I’m mistaken, when I first did my Multi-IFR that was one of the things we were told, “Don’t get your clearance until your ready to go, it’s rude”
I'm sure that wasn't as bad as Keewatin asking for there clearance before there passengers had even left the terminal building in YYQ. Man what ignorance. Nobody onboard except one pilot, no pax, no captain, no engines started.
I've heard and seen other BC operators ask for clearence before engines are started, not just PASCO. Prettys sure no one is doing it intentionally to delay someone else, or maybe I'm wrong. Maybe PASCO is just a devious sabature, out to destroy everyone in their path, and when the planes get mad they transform into super alien robots! MUAH AH AH. Or maybe its because that particular crew is just pseudo retarded, or maybe its just because its been a long day and you're tired and want to get home and actually didn't look across the apron to see if anyone else might be 1 minute ahead of you or closer to going. I bet there is more to it than meets the eye! Like I said, I've heard and seen lots of companies asking before they're ready. It's just like not cancelling when its super VFR, seen it from lots of different folk, but I'm not naming names.
If it's really bust'n your balls then why don't you grow a set and mention it to someone on the radio, you'll probably teach one of those "ex-instructors" a lesson and just imagine how good you'll feel afterwards!
Rd1331,
Yup, we had no passengers, just freight, number 3 in the lineup, no engines started as there is no point burning fuel, so we can watch an ATR and Saab taxi for 15 and 33. We called for sequencnng while closing the doors. Waited to start the engines until the first plane had left. Not exactly sure on how this delayed the last saab in leaving?
Actually Apache,
The aircraft I am talking about DID have passengers. Obviously not your flight. They where sitting inside the terminal. One of the pilots came out, got on board, must have taken her all of 30 seconds to get in and turn the radio on and call for clearance. There passengers still inside the terminal not even lined up at the gate. Meanwhile we're sitting beside her all the doors close about to start #2 but decided to have some Airmanship and let them board there flight.
Man oh Man, where do you hire from. Yesterday they went on the gravel between the apron and the terminal building in Ranking completely blocking Canadian North from boarding and blowing the crap out of both First air and Canadian North jets aswell as our ground crew. But they did get within 5 feet of the door that they couldn't use anyways because Canadian north was just about to board and had there passengers at it. Must have come within 5ft of both jets, the building, and the fence on the north side, what a circus act.
Sorry about the quick reply rd, quick off the keyboard. As with all companies, there are the good and the bad. At least you can correct them when they get hired on with you guys!!
First of all, who cares?? Second of all, there's nothing more annoying (and amusing) than listening to CMA talking to Comox on a sky clear, 30SM kinda day
"ATC clears Glacier 321 to the Campbell River airport via...."
Makes me laugh every time
They're doing Air Canada flights and are therefor restricted from going VFR. I'm sure, as annoyed as you are, Glacier's pilots are doubly so...
Back to the topic at hand, I had a Dash 8 with one screw turning and a GPU plugged in ask for it's IFR ahead of us the other day in Terrace, while we sat beside them with both stoves running 5 seconds from being ready to taxi. I spent the next 10-15 minutes with the park brake on just steaming.... Watched him start the other engine..... disconnect from the GPU.... taxi on by....
The guy beside me thinks I need some relaxation exercises.....
Anyways, it's not particularly Pasco... but it is bad airmanship. Yes, you're on a schedule and you don't want to be held up.... join the club.
In Europe they have a system which would solve some of the problems stated in this thread.
When ready to start, the flight crew asks for start-up clearance and the controller puts the IFR clearance "on request" with the appropriate ATC unit.
When ready for taxi the crew obtains taxi clearance and proceeds as instructed. The controller will then ask "ready to copy" and the crew will then copy the IFR clearance.
At busier airports with a seperate clearance delivery frequency, the IFR clearance is requested and issued, but will not be activated until the "request start up clearance" call is received from the crew. Any subequent delay to starting engines or starting to taxi has to be reported to ATC.
As far as priority is concerned, it is the "request taxi clearance"call which decides who goes first out to the runway, although, of course, ATC will take other factors into consideration when deciding the order of take-off.
Do you think the system will work here?
