What would you do: another floats Q

[Blue Side Down]

Flying from point A to B on straight floats, you're high and dry overflying an area with nothing resembling a lake below at all. There are, however, numerous logging roads and clear cuts throughout the otherwise pine bush.

Your engine goes bang! once and quits.

Where do you go? Why?

[flyingaddict]

I go for the flattest (or slightly uphill) section of trees I can find.

I have known too many people who have torn themselves open in a cut-block (on wheels and floats) including the Sonic Blue Caravan crash a while back. If you think you can grease it on to a windy logging road, think again. (You might be able to put it on to a main forestry road if it is wide and straight).

A grass meadow would trump all of these.

[zero]

Good "call, nickel", calnickel.

Stay away from the clearcuts...they have stumps!!!

You can also fly as high as reasonable to minimize the chances of being out of gliding range of a lake, there's more than a few around Red Lake.

[Rudder Bug]

I'd go for the small uphill trees. Might be a nice cushion. Never did it in 30 years flying but would choose these before a logging road. They could hurt me bad.

Do engines really quit in the real life? I'll know when it happens

[twotter]

The old saying used to be "pick cheap trees". Unfortunately the old cheap trees are now expensive ones. What it means is pick Alder, Willow etc. The deciduous types because they are generally much smaller and will bend to absorb some of the impact. If you do happen to find a straight piece of a mainline though, you can put a floatplane anywhere you can put a wheelplane.

[Blue Side Down]

If you do happen to find a straight piece of a mainline though, you can put a floatplane anywhere you can put a wheelplane.

In that case, what do you expect will happen? Just skid'er to a stop? I'd imagine that the chances of endng up upside down are pretty good, granted, you'd still be in one piece.

[Dog]

I don't think there is a rule that work for this all the time. I have suscessfully landed a plane on a logging road after an engine fire (still had power). I also flew it out after it was fixed. When I fly over it now I wouldn't believe that it could be done as it awfull short.
Everyone here is on the right track. If you have to hit the trees hit them going up hill (gravity will help slow you versus impact). Hit trees that aren't too tall and big around. Falling out of a 70 ft. tree will f*ck you up just as bad as a quick stop from 40 knots. If you have to hit big trees intentionally break the wings off by flying between them. The more stuff you break off the plane before the part you seat is bolted to hits something the "softer" the impact will be on the occupants.

Rudder bug: I've had a total engine failure every year for the past three years; You can take my word for it.

"Don't worry, I crash better than anyone I know." Mel Gibson, Air America

[Doc]

Well, I've had my share of engines take the day off, but I've always had another to take me home. Good points made here. Don't forget to make sure your water rudders are UP....don't want to have to buy the beer! And, I should think, your gitch would be pretty much toast....the stains will never wash out....might want to hang them over the mantle? Maybe not.

[twotter]

Blue side down,

In most cases, not all of course, you should be able to land a floatplane on land without flipping.

[Dog]

Here is the instructional video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JaDAsIs_NDY

[wallypilot]

holy crap....that is stunning footage.

[ragbagflyer]

Haven't had to put a plane into the trees but I certainly wouldn't be looking for any uphill. Imagine crashing on skis after a jump, the type you wear on your feet, into rising ground. It would hurt. Rising earth will not soften impact. It will only lessen the distance is takes to come to a halt, increasing deceration, and that can not be a good thing.

[Blakey]

The only time I've ever been involved in a forced landing was when I was 7 years old and it was on skis. My advice is to try for the road but, if it looks bad when you get closer, go for the softest thing close to the road. It was a long walk through the snow after we came to a halt. You'll get a lot more help beside the road than you will up on top of that hill of upslope trees! You may not be in that good of shape when you're done and you want to be found quickly!

[Dog]

Haven't had to put a plane into the trees but I certainly wouldn't be looking for any uphill. Imagine crashing on skis after a jump, the type you wear on your feet, into rising ground. It would hurt. Rising earth will not soften impact. It will only lessen the distance is takes to come to a halt, increasing deceration, and that can not be a good thing.

You can get a plane traveling with a slower ground speed going up than you can going down. Picture a hammerhead or a torque roll; zero ground speed. It has to do with less energy not the rate of decceleration.

[Lommer]

Ragbagflyer: Thats an interesting thought, but after some consideration I think dog is right. the difference is that skiiers do not generate any lift of their own, so the only way to minimize their apparent descent rate (and force of impact) is to have the ground fall away too. In an aircraft, we can control how we move through the air, and if crashing into a gentle upslope then at least gravity is working with us to stop the plane, instead of against us.

[Pratt]

That would be assuming that you recognized that it was an upslope and had the energy left to round out and fly into that upslope going upward, otherwise you would be defeating the purpose.

[ragbagflyer]

I see what you guys are trying to say but I think the reality is just that uphill terrain increases the chance of digging in hard and flipping over or compressing the plane like a pop can. I'm of the opinion that you want to prolong the deceleration to bring it down to a survivable level instead of speeding it up. I don't think it's realistic to think that you can round out the last section of the dead stick approach without engine power. Most planes, especially loaded ones, come down FAST without power. The time it takes to go from best glide to stall in a flair is very breif. To have the chance to actually start to climb with the terrain would probably require a faster glide speed. Whiles it's true that ground speed goes to zero in a hammerhead, I think the decrease in ground speed from flying onto gentle rising terrain would be negated by the other factors at play. With that argument you might as well choose steeply rising terrain and enter a dive, then pull up to rise up with the ground and attempt to settle gently onto the hillside. I certainly would not have the balls to try it. Any volunteers willing to go practice different forced approaches?

[Dog]

I see what you guys are trying to say but I think the reality is just that uphill terrain increases the chance of digging in hard and flipping over or compressing the plane like a pop can. I'm of the opinion that you want to prolong the deceleration to bring it down to a survivable level instead of speeding it up.

When you land down hill it's like landing with the engine still running. Gravity on it's own will accelerate your plane, regardless of the weight at 9.8 meters per second per second untill it is overcome by aerodynamics.
Landing downhill requires a longer distance to stop. If you have a nice smooth surface to land on, by all means land there. If you have three hundred feet of alders before you run into cedars with four foot buts... downhill might not be a good choice.

I don't think it's realistic to think that you can round out the last section of the dead stick approach without engine power. Most planes, especially loaded ones, come down FAST without power. The time it takes to go from best glide to stall in a flair is very breif. To have the chance to actually start to climb with the terrain would probably require a faster glide speed.

You answer your own question here.

With that argument you might as well choose steeply rising terrain and enter a dive, then pull up to rise up with the ground and attempt to settle gently onto the hillside. I certainly would not have the balls to try it.

I'm really not trying to be an ass here. If you're worried about the dreaded dead stick landing, go do some glider flying. Deadstick landings are just an exercise in energy management. If you have a nice place to land you can do it like they they taught you in flight school. If you have a shitty place, your best bet might be to stand the thing on its tail going up the side of some hill.

Bob Hoover said it best "Son, you've got to fly that plane as far through the crash as you can."

[ragbagflyer]

I'm not suggesting landing downhill. Acceleration due to gravity is only 9.8 m/s^2 if you are going down in a straight line, not down a hill anyways. There's no rush to stop a plane, the faster you stop the better the chance you will be killed. Unfortunately planes don't glide like a glider. They sink like hell, especially when loaded to gross weight. Another consideration in this, I could be wrong, but I'm thinking that when you go from your glide to a flair and transition to the back of the power curve, pulling back more on the stick will only lower your airspeed and slow the decent, but it won't increase altitude. I think you'll still be coming down, only a little bit slower. At this point a hillside isn't your friend. It'll stop you faster, but that's not what you want. The ground and the trees will do that just fine.

[Cat Driver]

Am I missing something here?

I do almost every landing with the power off before the flare, empty or loaded.

I never have any problem arresting the rate of sink before touch down, so why would you need power to land?

Am I missing something in this discussion?

[ragbagflyer]

I'm not saying you need power to land, i land at idle often as well, although. We're just debating whether flat ground or rising ground is better to be forced into. I do think though that at the very last stage of flight, when you can still adjust sink rate, power is needed to climb, and that going into trees, I'd take flat ground over rising terain. Only my opinion.

[Driving Rain]

Interestingly enough... a CL-415 water bomber in Italy crashed landed into rising terrain a few years back. The pilot couldn't out climb the terrain for one reason or another. The aircraft settled in very slow, nice as you please, both engines continued to run at full power stopping the aircraft's backward slide down the mountain until the fuel was exhausted and the crew safely clear. The Capt. was injured when he jumped out the rear door to the ground but other wise no life threating injuries. The co-pilot pulled out his trusty cell phone and contacted rescuers from the mountain top.