LOU 18

Jaques Strappe · Post by **Jaques Strappe** » Thu Aug 09, 2007 7:58 pm

WF9F wrote:Jazz comes to AC making more than any OTS pilot. If you start on the same course as a JAZZ pilot both pilots should start equally.

Because of LOU 18 we now have JAZZ guys hired after OTS guys , flying the same aircraft type making double the money of the junior to them OTS pilots. How is that for a benefit.
LOU 18 needs to be changed or chucked.

You have to keep in mind however, that LOU has been in place for 12 years.

It is kind of like a brand new OTS guy saying he doesn't agree with the present pass priority system. His choice whether he wants to join or not. I agree that the LOU is now out dated but I don't see anything wrong with recognizing the contributions of Jazz pilots to what used to be the AC bottom line. No different than the OTS guy from the Military flying the same airplane, perhaps junior to a Jazz guy, yet for some reason, is allowed to buy all his pensionable time from the Military when nobody else can.

cog · Post by **cog** » Fri Aug 10, 2007 5:44 am

WF9F,

The only thing that needs changing or chucking is you’re attitude.

The entire topic yet again demonstrates how fickle our pilot group is. Instead of productive debate over such topics as higher wages, getting paid for training, and bettering the reserve rules we have to complain over an obscure LOU.

Perhaps people like you should go and volunteer in our Union and stop working to further divide our group.

By the way, some of those Jazz guys bring over 10 plus years of working within the Air Canada system. Long before you probably even had you’re pilot licence.

Brick Head · Post by **Brick Head** » Fri Aug 10, 2007 7:25 am

Removed so as not to confuse.

Jaques Strappe · Post by **Jaques Strappe** » Fri Aug 10, 2007 4:16 pm

Don't think that was directed at me Brick. Are you sure you aren't seeing double when reading this thread?

I think you are quoting two different sources. Either that or I need to increase my meds.

Brick Head · Post by **Brick Head** » Fri Aug 10, 2007 4:38 pm

Jaques Strappe wrote:Don't think that was directed at me Brick. Are you sure you aren't seeing double when reading this thread? I think you are quoting two different sources. Either that or I need to increase my meds.

First dementia now this

Martin Tamme · Post by **Martin Tamme** » Fri Aug 10, 2007 7:33 pm

cog wrote: By the way, some of those Jazz guys bring over 10 plus years of working within the Air Canada system. Long before you probably even had you’re pilot licence.

This is too funny, I just have to comment.

You are talking to a guy (WF9F) who has upwards of 15,000 hours; flew his first Dash 8 in 1988; was an LEC Chair with his former union (9F); filed his first grievance at Air Canada the day after he finished his training; filed his 2nd grievance before he even finished probation. (Although he interpreted the correct language with respect to his first grievance, he wasn't aware of the estoppel -past practice- argument. His second grievance is still on-going and ACPA supports him 100%. If he doesn't watch out, they will recruit him into management very fast

).

The point he was trying to make is that LOU 18 is a benefit to the Jazz pilots, because it credits their Jazz years of service (up to a maximum of 4 years) for pay purposes & vacation entitlement once they become Air Canada pilots.

uncleron · Post by **uncleron** » Sat Aug 11, 2007 4:19 pm

I don't think I explained my first post very well.I believe the ability of a Jazz pilot to be credited with 4 years of credit for pay and vacation is a great benefit and it is nice that ACPA and AC would acknowledge the contribution, so didn't want to seem ungrateful.

I was refering to the part of the LOU that allows said pilot to be frozen for 2 years, which only benefits Jazz to avoid pilot shortages. Myself like the rest of the frozen pilots have always wanted to fly for Air Canada and worked many years to obtain that goal.I was lucky enough to be offered a job at AC over 14 months ago and was very excited about the opportunity.I don't want to be frozen and would have preferred to have that 14 months working at AC, but I and the rest of the frozen pilots are given no choice.
With Jazz deciding to hold me to the full term of my freeze .The job offer to fly for AC has a real possibility of disappearing as it had already has for a few.
That is the part of the LOU I was referring to as not beneficial.

Cheers

jazzpilot · Post by **jazzpilot** » Sun Aug 12, 2007 12:07 pm

So now i am confused, earlier I thought it was said that if my senority date frozen at AC was Mar 2006 then I would start third year pay in Mar 2008. Now on this last post I think I understand that I can carry on my 2 years of senority from Jazz and start year 3 pay when I start at AC. ?? I am confused.

WF9F · Post by **WF9F** » Sun Aug 12, 2007 6:32 pm

Hey cog,
Just guessing but your from Jazz, right? Speaking of attitudes it's not hard to tell.

A lot of OTS guys bring much to AC as well, for example, ex-military, corporate, other airlines. Talking to STOC for 10 years is not that hard of a task.
Sounds like you are at AC as well so am I correct to assume that you agree with LOU 18 in its entirety? I said changed or chucked, either would do. It is Ok for you to have DOH for pay and every other pilot something much later? It is Ok for guys hired after another pilot flying the same type making double your pay? Just curious as to your answers on these.

As for dividing our group, LOU 18 does a good job of that from Day 1 for the OTS pilots.

Martin Tamme · Post by **Martin Tamme** » Sun Aug 12, 2007 7:38 pm

jazzpilot wrote:So now i am confused, earlier I thought it was said that if my senority date frozen at AC was Mar 2006 then I would start third year pay in Mar 2008. Now on this last post I think I understand that I can carry on my 2 years of senority from Jazz and start year 3 pay when I start at AC. ?? I am confused.

Example:

You were hired at Jazz in January 2003
You received a frozen seniority date at Air Canada in March 2006
You get hired by Air Canada in April 2008

You get 3 years of credit for January 2003 - January 2006
You get 2 years of credit for the freeze

You start in year 6 when you come to Air Canada in April 2008

WF9F · Post by **WF9F** » Sun Aug 12, 2007 7:47 pm

You gat to admit that is a good deal. No 2 year flat pay like everyone else even the Jazz guys that came with no freeze did not get a deal like that.

Just an honest question for those who want to take a crack at it.What is the benefit of LOU 18 to ACPA and its pilots?

uncleron · Post by **uncleron** » Mon Aug 13, 2007 7:55 am

The flat pay is the same wage that a frozen pilot makes at Jazz, so no advantage there.

The LOU seems to be a courtesy to Jazz so that AC's hiring would not cause hardship to Jazz in staffing their airline....thus the freeze.

Brick Head · Post by **Brick Head** » Mon Aug 13, 2007 9:25 am

uncleon,

Your missing the point. Jazz pilots are not the target. A desire for equality is the target. By the way the benefit derived from LOU 18 is not small.

I think someone should point out that 6 years for pay purposes is huge. Our 12 year pay scale is not linear. It climbs slowly for the first 4; accelerates pay increases for the next 5; then slows for the next 3. The cumulative yearly pay difference between an individual starting at year 1 and another at year 6, over the 12 years it will take for parity would be a large sum of money.

Even a 2 or 3 year difference would make a substantial cumulative pay difference over the 12 year time for two individuals to achieve parity.

I don't think anyone has an issue with your accredited service start date being from the day you were hired but frozen. ( am I out of line here?)The issue is the other 4 years in the example above.

This LOU dates back to 1995 when the whole common employer/Pitcher award fiasco was going on. ( Just giving some history......don't want to get into it) At the time it was seen as a way by ACPA to avoid common employer and to give those transitioning to Air Canada at least something for their contribution to the company. Sounded reasonable then.

Now LOU 18 still exists but Jazz is no longer a subsidiary of Air Canada. Yes they are a business partner but no more so than CMA or Georgian. So why are the pilots treated differently?

Why is the pilot group of one business partner singled out, on one hand for a very large cash benefit, but are also subject to freezes. Why are the pilots of other business partners also not singled out for both the benefit and the freeze?

Why are the Jazz pilots getting this large financial benefit when the conditions of the LOU terminate on total divestiture from AC?

L18.07 If there is a total sale or divestiture of any Air Canada Connector Airline, then the pilots of that carrier will be removed from the Combined Seniority List of Air Canada Connector Airlines, subject to the Laws of Canada.

IMO that happened the day Jazz was no longer a subsidiary of AC. So if Air Canada is just handing out free money why not to everyone?

Like I said earlier. The LOU is out dated. That only leads to injustices, perceived or otherwise, which leads to eventual challenges. Challenges lead to arbitrators which leads to a crap shoot. The fact that seniority is part of the LOU only makes it messier.

Jaques Strappe · Post by **Jaques Strappe** » Mon Aug 13, 2007 9:51 am

If people really want to bitch about LOU 18, perhaps they should also look at the 1990 date for pass privileges the CRA guys got. Some of my F/O's who are a thousand numbers junior to me, get on an airplane ahead of me. It is their own version of LOU 18. Instead of a 4 year pay credit, they got a back dated pass travel date.

Just goes to show that not everything in life seems fair but you get what you negotiate.

socrates · Post by **socrates** » Mon Aug 13, 2007 10:44 am

I must say it is pretty interesting hearing everyones point of view.

You must admit that even though the companies are seperate entities they are in fact the same. You can not look through a page of Air Canadas' financial reports and not see the word Jazz or vice versa. The only reason they are seperate entities is for labour and taxation purposes. One can not exist without the other.

So I must make this point. The LOU does not benefit any new hire pilot at Jazz I think I would speak for all new hires when I say they would gladly give up there pay carry over for a chance to make it on the ACPA list as soon as they are given an offer from mainline. The difference in the last year or so has ment 100's of seniority #'s for Jazz pilots.

uncleron · Post by **uncleron** » Mon Aug 13, 2007 11:59 am

. . · Post by **. .** » Mon Aug 13, 2007 3:35 pm

Uncleron: Do some research before pretending to present "facts" to everyone.

Jaques Strappe · Post by **Jaques Strappe** » Mon Aug 13, 2007 3:47 pm

Uncleron

I have never seen Brickhead post anything other than fact with the occasional opinion thrown in. Usually without any emotion, so I don't think he is up in arms about anything. I think you may have taken his post the wrong way. In fact, you guys have more common ground than you think. You don't like the LOU due to the freeze and Brickhead is saying that it may not have any legal merit any longer.

I would suggest that if the guys from Jazz feel that the LOU does not benefit them and the OTS guys certainly don't like it, why not campaign to get rid of it then?

J.S

Brick Head · Post by **Brick Head** » Mon Aug 13, 2007 4:55 pm

Uncleon,

First off I have been at AC for 12 years.

I am going to play devils advocate here to show you how others view the Lou. But before I do, I want to make it clear I am not in anyway advocating its termination with adverse affects on anyone. Nor am I suggesting ACPA or Air Canada want to terminate the agreement. One huge thing you have going for you is ACPA has approved each and every one of the freezes. Meaning ACPA has directly recognized your seniority number. That has not taken place before. Relax

I am not trying to stress you out. The issue from the off the street group is money not seniority. They want to be treated equally for pay purposes.

Now to the devils advocate

]L18.07 If there is a total sale or divestiture of any Air Canada Connector Airline, then the pilots of that carrier will be removed from the Combined Seniority List of Air Canada Connector Airlines, subject to the Laws of Canada.

I have asked AC directly about this and it does not mean removed from the AC list it says removed from the connector airlines list (Jazz).Meaning once its sold you cant be on both lists.It does not say removed from the air canada list.

Did you see what you just wrote. "Once it is sold......you can't be on both lists." How are you on both lists then? AC does not own a connector.

You are correct it does not say removed from the ACPA list, it says removed from the Air Canada connector lists. The LOU states it is to afford orderly advancement to the ACPA list, from the Air Canada connector list. If total divestiture takes place that group of pilots get removed from the Air Connector list. See where this is going? If you are not on the Air Canada connector list, this LOU does not apply to you. In order to be on the Air Canada connector list you must be at least partially owned by AC.

Now go back to 2005 when AC started hiring. Jazz had already been divested and had been created as a separate entity. IPO'd and all. Did the LOU apply to Jazz? I know you have been given AC's version of why the LOU pertains to Jazz pilots but read it again from the point of view of a new hire. Read it exactly as it is written.

A new hire would ask. Just a minute if the LOU doesn't apply to them why are they getting extra cash when I am not?

uncleron · Post by **uncleron** » Tue Aug 14, 2007 4:52 am

Brickhead and Jacques,

Somtimes the problem with these forums is somethings come across in an incorrect tone.After rereading my post it did not come across as I intended and have since deleted it.
I think this issue gets too emotional for me so I best not post about it anymore, I apologize as I meant no disrespect.

Cheers

Jaques Strappe · Post by **Jaques Strappe** » Tue Aug 14, 2007 6:25 am

Uncleron

No disrespect was taken from my part. I have to say, I learn from these postings. I may not agree with some but I do learn from the opinions of others. I had no idea for instance that some Jazz pilots perhaps would rather not carry over a four year pay credit and not be subject to a freeze. I can see some merit in that, especially toward the back side of a hiring where once the freeze has been lifted, mainline may or may not have a course date any longer.

When I was hired, LOU 18 had not yet been implemented but the company was freezing us because we had been recently trained either as Captains on the Dash 8 or F/O's on the BAe 146. At the time, no numbers were being given out. I asked Air Nova management to allow me to do my FOM course and obtain a number at AC upon which time, I would be happy to serve out as much time as they wanted. The answer was no. It was by pure luck one day that I requested a jumpseat to ORD on an AC flight and the Captain was the ACPA MEC chair at the time. I gave him my name and faxed the names of 40 other guys who were being frozen. ( AC management knew who was being frozen but had no interest in telling ACPA ) ACPA then secured numbers for us but by this time, a bunch of junior guys had been hired in our place. ( the Voisey award ) This is a brief starting point of where LOU 18 came from and one reason ( of several )why it was put in place.

WF9F · Post by **WF9F** » Tue Aug 14, 2007 8:00 am

JS and Brickhead,
Excellent and informative posts.
Brickhead your right on the point when you say it is more to do with money than seniority.Your post nails the issue dead center. LOU 18 was created because of a number of things as mentioned by JS. It only stands to reason if times have changed, and they have, the said LOU needs revamping, so to speak.It is outdated and is adversely affecting alot of new hire pilots.

Socrates,
IMO and many others they are not the same company.If they were we would not have an LOU18 and all this would be for not.Jazz and Air Canada are seperate under the ACE umbrella which is soon to be removed , which will have both of us on our own and seperate.How that pans out only time will tell. Air Canada has a commercial agreement with Jazz, much like a few other companies providing pax feed.

JS your comment about campaigning to get rid of it is going to come up in the near future. As soon as some of the other issues get dealt with.

KAG · Post by **KAG** » Tue Aug 14, 2007 8:16 am

WF9F wrote:You gat to admit that is a good deal. No 2 year flat pay like everyone else even the Jazz guys that came with no freeze did not get a deal like that.

Just an honest question for those who want to take a crack at it.What is the benefit of LOU 18 to ACPA and its pilots?

Sure it may not seem fair to a guy just getting hired OTS that the X Jazz driver sitting beside him/her in GS is making more money. Then again, that same guy didn't help ACE through CCAA.

I find it funny (sad really) how quickly some new hires at AC go from being very happy to be hired, to bitching about the odd Jazz driver, and their pay.

. . · Post by **. .** » Tue Aug 14, 2007 9:36 am

KAG, most of the jazz guys interviewing in the last year were somewhere else early this decade when the crunch was on.