The 40 Degree Flap Question

[Siddley Hawker]

I've never seen anyone use full flap on the Canso.

[twotter]

I'm sorry, but for those of you who don't think an airplane should have as much flap as it is certified for, I just think you don't know how to fly.

Yes, sure for most of the cases, but I doubt Russ had 4,000 hours on type when he wrote the POH. They were selling a fantastic airplane though, but most of us like a Beaver with no more than T/O flaps under "normal" operation.

Who knows, maybe a different POH could be written after 60 years and millions hours flown circa 1947...

You are right that Russ didn't have 4000 hours on type, but I have a few more and call bullshit on not using more than T/O flaps.

The airplane was designed and certified to use a lot of flaps. Way back in the 70's we all used a lot of flaps. I'm sure they did before that too.. So, are you saying that you can make the airplane do what it's supposed to do without using flaps?? I see a lot of pilots these days taking off and pumping the flaps to 0 shortly after takeoff. Maybe they are smarter than us older guys but I used to think that climb flap meant something.

Maybe one of you young aces can straighten me out on that one.

[Rudder Bug]

but most of us like a Beaver with no more than T/O flaps under "normal" operation.

***Yawning

[hotel hobo]

Why would a Cessna L-19 have 70 degrees of flap?

[AdamB]

Why would a Cessna L-19 have 70 degrees of flap?

It dosent.

[just curious]

It's got 60

[grimey]

Here is something you could do...go to your local video rental store and ask for the movie " Below " by Mirimax....fast foward to the end of the movie and read the credits of the cast of characters in the movie....the first name is mine....

Easier way...

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1260511/

[boozy]

I think a lot of the hub-bub about full flaps in the beaver comes from whether it actually makes a shorter landing or not. I don't actually know. I'm in the "2-3 full flap landing" club because I fly in NWO. With take-off flap I couldn't imagine landing shorter except for crashing.

I think if you need to make steep (BC flying) descents, full flap landings are probably the way to go. And no doubt the landing would be a lot shorter than a takeoff flap landing because YOUR GOING SLOWER.

However, in NWO where a good chunk of landing's are over say zero to two hundred foot obstacles, I'd really like to see which flap setting gives a shorter landing from the edge of the shore behind you. Because thats what this argument is all about in the first place..."who can land shorter" (crashing doesn't count).

So when your in NWO with say 75 feet of trees to drop over before your lake, I would think that it would be the full flap landing that would be shorter, but I don't know? I wonder if you have to carry extra speed with full flaps so that you can have a round out. I don't know. I know if you have take-off flap, you can go as slow as possible, almost flaring over those last trees, with power off, and when you clear the trees, duck the nose down, re-flare over the water and when you touch down, push forward a wee bit on the column for brakes. That makes a damn short landing but I don't know if you can do that with full flaps. I think its probably a completely different approach. And I don't know which would have less space behind you when you fully stop. I don't really need to know. But if someone else knows, then tell me.

[5x5]

I wonder if you have to carry extra speed with full flaps so that you can have a round out.

My head hurts.

[Cat Driver]

Reading these discussions about basic flying characteristics of airplanes and the lack of understanding of the basics is frightening if I think that I may get on a airplane flown by someone that is not competent on type.

Thinking that they are commercial pilots trained to the minimum standards.............

Good God what is going on in aviation?

[phillyfan]

My current Beaver is placarded. It says "full flap landings not permitted" It does however have the engine mount extension. I have also flown Beavers that stop at 3/4 flap travel. Keep in mind you are in some ways playing test pilot when you use full flap. Unless of course your flying a stock Beaver. I'm betting very few of you are. Most now have. Baron kits, Cabin extensions, Bigger floats, engine mount extensions, upgross to 5370. (Ive even flown one with an upgross to 5600). These planes were never intended to have 7 or 8 people and gear piled to roof behind them.
I knew a couple guys who made full flap landings a "standard procedure" sadly they now spend there time now in a jar over the fireplace . So hey pump away. Just don't be surprised. If one day things don't go according to the 1940's manual and your looking at the world upside down or your diveing her in over the trees and when you pull back nothing happens

[Four1oh]

The 1 season I flew the Beaver I enjoyed it immensely, and only scratched the surface of it's capabilities. I did land with land flap 3 times, just to check it out. My boss told me not to use land flap for landing, just to use takeoff flap. He had been flying beavers for a very long time. I could see why(on floats) you wouldn't. There's really no need to. If you NEED landing flap on floats chances are, you're in a very tight lake and would have a tough time getting out of there again with a load on.
Now, had I flown that plane on tundra tires, i'd probably be using land flap on a regular basis. That plane was designed so that the US Army could move Generals around on the front lines on unprepared landing areas, so of course you'd use that flap setting all the time in a setting like that. Also, landing on eskers up in the north would be a perfect use for them. Floats? Never really needed them, always had lots of lake, and luckily for me, was almost always in the lee side of the lake, and never even landed in waves more than a foot high. If I ever had an emergency on floats would I use'm? Damn right, which is why I did a few landings with Land flap, to get a feel for it.

Meh, whatever, it's all opinion here, and this is mine.

[boozy]

This is in response to CAT DRIVER who I assume was responding to my post about flaps on the beaver...so check your pager...here's a post.

Since your the top poster, you must be the top pilot as well. Look Im not a f***ing idiot like you make me and everyone else on here feel like. Naturally I haven't read all 8000 of your posts, so Im sure there's times when you've actually said some sort of usefull information. I don't know what bush flying has been like for you, but I've had to learn things "as I go". I wasn't born out of an egg with all the knowledge in aviation. I know how f***in flaps work for instance. But when my various chief pilots I've worked for over the years have told me they never ever use it on the beaver...I take they're advice.

Occasionaly I come on this website to see if there are any interesting things to learn about bush flying. For instance, anything that has to do with the types that I fly. Thats the way I am, I like to learn...I listen instead of tell people they don't know what they're talking about. So you'd think that if there's some interesting stuff being talked about the beaver, maybe people will have interesting stories of how they do things. But from your post I can see that is not true. So, just like almost every bush hour I have, I'll have to learn things on my own...testing the waters slowly and surely until I learn the performance of the aircraft.

As for the posting, if you want to bash other pilots...go ahead and continue. Im sure this is fun for you. I don't even know why you'd read anything on this site since you know everything about flying and you have no knowledge to offer up to anyone. I guess it makes you feel good about yourself or something.

Oh and if you were one of my passengers sitting in the "danger-wagons" that I fly, you'd never know whether I could land with full flaps on the beaver, because I don't do it. You wouldn't even know if I could do steep turns....cause I never do those...you wouldn't know if I could do barrel rolls and loops either. That's because I fly commercially...that means I fly passengers and I don't like to clean up vomit.

Anyway, have a good day.

[Cat Driver]

This is in response to CAT DRIVER who I assume was responding to my post about flaps on the beaver...so check your pager...here's a post.

Actually , I was not responding to your post boozy,I was comenting on how such a basic issue as if it is safe to use full flaps on a certified airplane can go on forever and ever.

But thanks for your comments anyhow.

Once again allow me to say that if an airplane is certified with xx degrees of flaps and a pilot has not demonstrated profficiency using full flap they are not properly checked out on that aircraft.

This conversation is sort of like the discussions about you have to look at the far end of the runway to land properly.....where do these ideas come from?

I don't even know why you'd read anything on this site since you know everything about flying and you have no knowledge to offer up to anyone. I guess it makes you feel good about yourself or something.

Actually boozy I earn a lot of my living offering advice and I specalize in advanced flight training, I am a bit expensive though.

Hope that clears it up for you?

[seniorpumpkin]

Earlier this afternoon I learned what happens when full flap is selected on an empty twotter on a gusty day. Let's just say it'll take me a while to live down that landing.
I've seen the need for full flap, for sure it makes sense in many cases. The important thing is to evaluate all the factors at play and to have proper training!!!
Sadly I have learned more about flaps in the last 6 pages of forums than in my 200 hours of initial training and my first 200 hours on the job. So for all you flight instructors and training captains out there, please tell your students about the limitations and proper use of flaps!

[BuckNiner]

Here is my experience with full flaps in the Beaver. First, the Beaver I'm flying has the Baron mod with the 5370 upgross. The old flap placard has been replaced with a new one that reads:
Cruise - 0
Climb - 15
Baron - 25
Takeoff - 35
Landing - 50

I have tried around 15 or more landings at the "Landing" setting, or 50 degrees. I almost always land at or just a little farther down from the "takeoff" setting (35-40 degrees), which I believe is more than the "takeoff" setting on the old placard. The first time I landed full flap was during my checkout where I was warned never to use it but we did a full flap landing just to get a feel for it. The landing was uneventful, flew a stabilized descent down to the water around 70 mph and kept the power on until I was flared level a few feet over the water. I have never landed full flap with the airplane anywhere near gross. Maybe that is where guys find themselves in trouble? Also, never tried it with gusty winds of any kind. Maybe the solution is maintaining the speed (65-70 mph) with power right into the roundout??? Like I said I've never had any bad experiences with full flap but I've just had a healthy respect for the full flap landing because of what I've read on this forum and from being cautioned by my chief pilot. It's not something I'm going to use in day to day ops but my feeling is that if you can't fly your aircraft in every configuration you don't have any business flying it in the first place.

[Cat Driver]

Lets all take a trip back to flying kindergarten and review how an airplane flys.

Regardless of flap position the wing will produce a constant lift as long as airspeed remains constant.

There are two basic means of maintaining a constant airspeed.

(1)Power.

(2) Gravity.

If a Beaver were at 10,000 feet lets say and at the recommended speed for that flap setting the lift produced using full flap will remain constant as long as you maintain an attitude that gives a constant indicated airspeed at zero thrust from the propeller.

Generallly where pilots get into a iffy control response and rate of descent problem is when transiting from a steady state, constant attitude, constant airspeed flight path will be in the flare and hold off portion of a landing.

That can be taken care of with proper training and practice.

When using full flap I almost always complete the last portion of the approach and landing from around 200 feet with the throttle closed, the idea is a short approach path and short landing...therefore using power defeats the whole purpose of using full flaps.

[Four1oh]

cat, could you please address this comment?

"I know if you have take-off flap, you can go as slow as possible, almost flaring over those last trees, with power off, and when you clear the trees, duck the nose down, re-flare over the water and when you touch down, push forward a wee bit on the column for brakes. "

I don't think I can respond without getting overly colorful.

[tofo]

If you are doing that you might as well fly into a lake 100 feet longer with 100 extra pounds. Hell you won't notice the distance

[32a]

In my outfit, pilots are trained and required to maintain proficiency at pretty much everything the AOI(POH) says the airplane can do. Try these numbers on for size.

Basic weight: 27,000 lbs
Max AUW: 45,000 lbs
Engines: 2 x 3060 SHP

Take-off at 37,000 lbs (SL, ISA, calm, firm, level)
7 deg – 93 KIAS – 1400’ grd roll – 2200’ dist to 50’ AGL
30 deg – 67 KIAS – 800’ grd roll – 1200’ dist to 50’ AGL (STOL)

Landing at 37,000 lbs (SL, ISA, calm, firm, level)
17 deg – 93 KIAS app – 750’ grd roll – 2150’ from 50’ AGL
40 deg – 83 KIAS app (no chart but probably around 600' grd roll)
40 deg – 72 KIAS app – 500’ grd roll – 1100’ from 50’ AGL (STOL)

In STOL ops, VMCA is disregarded. If you lose an engine on take-off below VMCA, power to idle, level the wings and die like a man. If you lose one on a STOL app, an attempted overshoot will cost up to another 700’ descent before climbing.

Dragging it in under high power is a no-no, thus approaches get steeper for greater flap settings. Power is moved to idle at 50’ for normal landings. For STOL landings, power to idle AFTER roundout. Other than for speed, flaps are limited for weight and crosswind component.

The SOP? Whatever it takes to get the job done safely in the given conditions.
The airplane? DHC-5 Buffalo

[Cat Driver]

Yah, 32a but you have the best training one can get....now if only commercial aviation had the same level of training these discussions would not be going on.

[twotter]

Hey 32a, when are you going to retire from that office job and come out and fly for a living with the rest of us?
Come on now, you've had it way to easy for way too long.. I'll even do your float endorsement for ya!!!
You just buy the beers!!!

[Castorero]

Jesus Mary and Joseph, that was quite a read!

Only enough time on this Earth to scratch the surface...

Imagine a time when a life's knowledge can be extracted onto a memory stick and uploaded onto a new platform, or a fresh brain, before heading to the final pasture.

Gives new meaning to stemming the "Brain Drain".

[Loon-A-Tic]

Why would a Cessna L-19 have 70 degrees of flap?

It dosent.

Actually the Birddog in it's original military role had 90 degree flaps, 60 was a limitation for civilian certification.