WestJet plane in near miss at L.A. airport

[invertedattitude]

We switch freqs everyday in Canada without being told. Tower to departure... tower to ground, ground to tower. It is clear in the FAA regs on remaining with tower during parallel ops, but I can see how the mistake was made. They also clarified the clearance before moving too.

Curious on this one, I don't work in a tower, nor have I operated an airplane IFR into a busy airport.

But around here anyway the phraseology the tower normally gives to IFR flights is "Contact centre XXX.X airborne, cleared for takeoff runway XX"

And:

"Taxi to runway XX, via X, X X cross runway XX, hold short runway XX, contact Tower holding short"

Those are frequency change instructions. How does it work differently at busier airports?

inverted, using your airport as an example: The typical clearance will be to taxi to the runway and the instruction to switch may or may not be included; but the tower controller will be wondering why you haven't switched when holding short on ground freq. Visa versa, the ground controller will be assuming you've switched... with or without instruction.

And complex...maybe you've never made a mistake but I think WestJet has ample experience now flying to the US and LAX or maybe you've never flown with a new FO... I'd hate to see the reaction when one makes a mistake flying with you. As for 15 meters 37 feet being so close in your opinion; I was holding short of 24L in reverse Y taxi way a few days ago, its about 15 meters exactly and you don't have a choice... you're tail will not be clear of 24R if your nose isn't 1 foot back from the hold short line.

Also, I haven't justified the error, its an FAA reg as posted above, I've only said that I can see and understand how easily this error can be made.

]
I think you need to step back a little here. I'm not trying to make this confrontational.

An incident like this is something all professionals should learn from. I am a pilot, but my profession in aviation has nothing to do with touching the controls of an airplane, but I do fully respect the confusing environment a busy piece of airspace/airport can be.

I think you may be mincing my posts with others, I've said twice at least how this is a simple human error, never did I say it is the crews fault. Clearly it is as much if not more the ground controllers fault. The last post I made I asked a few simple questions of you, since you would know the answers I was looking for.

Please don't take offense to any of these posts, there's none intended.

[WJ700]

Curious on this one, I don't work in a tower, nor have I operated an airplane IFR into a busy airport.

But around here anyway the phraseology the tower normally gives to IFR flights is "Contact centre XXX.X airborne, cleared for takeoff runway XX"

And:

"Taxi to runway XX, via X, X X cross runway XX, hold short runway XX, contact Tower holding short"

Those are frequency change instructions. How does it work differently at busier airports?

inverted, using your airport as an example: The typical clearance will be to taxi to the runway and the instruction to switch may or may not be included; but the tower controller will be wondering why you haven't switched when holding short on ground freq. Visa versa, the ground controller will be assuming you've switched... with or without instruction.

And complex...maybe you've never made a mistake but I think WestJet has ample experience now flying to the US and LAX or maybe you've never flown with a new FO... I'd hate to see the reaction when one makes a mistake flying with you. As for 15 meters 37 feet being so close in your opinion; I was holding short of 24L in reverse Y taxi way a few days ago, its about 15 meters exactly and you don't have a choice... you're tail will not be clear of 24R if your nose isn't 1 foot back from the hold short line.

Also, I haven't justified the error, its an FAA reg as posted above, I've only said that I can see and understand how easily this error can be made.

]
I think you need to step back a little here. I'm not trying to make this confrontational.

An incident like this is something all professionals should learn from. I am a pilot, but my profession in aviation has nothing to do with touching the controls of an airplane, but I do fully respect the confusing environment a busy piece of airspace/airport can be.

I think you may be mincing my posts with others, I've said twice at least how this is a simple human error, never did I say it is the crews fault. Clearly it is as much if not more the ground controllers fault. The last post I made I asked a few simple questions of you, since you would know the answers I was looking for.

Please don't take offense to any of these posts, there's none intended.

Where I said 'complex' I was refering to 'complexintentions' ,the poster. The first part was for you. I wrote my response pretty fast with a 2 year old yanking at my leg to go to the park and should have been a little more clear.

[invertedattitude]

inverted, using your airport as an example: The typical clearance will be to taxi to the runway and the instruction to switch may or may not be included; but the tower controller will be wondering why you haven't switched when holding short on ground freq. Visa versa, the ground controller will be assuming you've switched... with or without instruction.

And complex...maybe you've never made a mistake but I think WestJet has ample experience now flying to the US and LAX or maybe you've never flown with a new FO... I'd hate to see the reaction when one makes a mistake flying with you. As for 15 meters 37 feet being so close in your opinion; I was holding short of 24L in reverse Y taxi way a few days ago, its about 15 meters exactly and you don't have a choice... you're tail will not be clear of 24R if your nose isn't 1 foot back from the hold short line.

Also, I haven't justified the error, its an FAA reg as posted above, I've only said that I can see and understand how easily this error can be made.

]
I think you need to step back a little here. I'm not trying to make this confrontational.

An incident like this is something all professionals should learn from. I am a pilot, but my profession in aviation has nothing to do with touching the controls of an airplane, but I do fully respect the confusing environment a busy piece of airspace/airport can be.

I think you may be mincing my posts with others, I've said twice at least how this is a simple human error, never did I say it is the crews fault. Clearly it is as much if not more the ground controllers fault. The last post I made I asked a few simple questions of you, since you would know the answers I was looking for.

Please don't take offense to any of these posts, there's none intended.

Where I said 'complex' I was refering to 'complexintentions' ,the poster. The first part was for you. I wrote my response pretty fast with a 2 year old yanking at my leg to go to the park and should have been a little more clear.

Ahh ok, thanks

[express]

...things happen. the most important thing is that there are safety lessons learned on everyone's part and for everyone to learn from. these safety lesson's are for the greater benenfit no matter what the company/airline. period. you can bet that pretty much every company from the us and canada has been involved in similar incidents. i have been cleared to cross a runway a couple seconds before a king air 200 was on the roll for takeoff. i didn't hang out the controller to dry. the left/right lookout will save yer bacon, if not today then someday. let's be professional and appreciate the lesson's as they come in. safe flying...and enough of the company specific BS. i've got close friends at AC as well, you won't ever catch me poo poo'ing on them or their company beyond a friendly joke once in a while. there are great people at AC and WJ. if truth be told we both do a great job.
cheers,

[complexintentions]

Couple things.

jim_from_texas

In YVR, the instruction to switch to tower and STAND BY is published on the taxi chart. Or was, anyway, haven't flown in there in years. So that IS, in effect a reg, specific to that airport. But normally there will be a positive change of control and frequencey. This changing because it 'seems about when they always change us' is a really bad idea.

WJ700

I'm not above mistakes, nor was I giving the crew a hard time. But suggesting the crew "should be hailed as heroes" as another poster did is a tad much. They caught their own error (thank god) but they created the situation in the first place.

Perhaps you could calulate the math on how many feet/second an Airbus is covering at rotation speed and tell me how long a time period away from a disaster 37 feet is. Telling me that you were that close, holding short of 24L somewhere is irrelevant when you're SUPPOSED to be there....a different situation.

If WJ is so experienced flying into places like LAX and they need to know stuff like that - no grey area! Saying stuff about maybe a new FO doesn't cut it. Sorry.

invertedattitude

It may or may not be more or less the controller's fault, or the pilots fault...the reason I sounded harsh about the crew knowing exactly who they should be talking to, is because in the end it won't matter whose damn fault it is...the crew and pax will pay for the mistake, not the controller.

[complexintentions]

Couple things.

jim_from_texas

In YVR, the instruction to switch to tower and STAND BY is published on the taxi chart. Or was, anyway, haven't flown in there in years. So that IS, in effect a reg, specific to that airport. But normally there will be a positive change of control and frequencey. This changing because it 'seems about when they always change us' is a really bad idea.

WJ700

I'm not above mistakes, nor was I giving the crew a hard time. But suggesting the crew "should be hailed as heroes" as another poster did is a tad much. They caught their own error (thank god) but they created the situation in the first place.

Perhaps you could calulate the math on how many feet/second an Airbus is covering at rotation speed and tell me how long a time period away from a disaster 37 feet is. Telling me that you were that close, holding short of 24L somewhere is irrelevant when you're SUPPOSED to be there....a different situation.

If WJ is so experienced flying into places like LAX they need to know stuff like that - no grey area! Saying stuff about maybe a new FO doesn't cut it. Sorry.

invertedattitude

It may or may not be more or less the controller's fault, or the pilots fault...the reason I sounded harsh about the crew knowing exactly who they should be talking to, is because in the end it won't matter whose damn fault it is...the crew and pax will pay for the mistake, not the controller.

[tofo]

I think the lessons been learned thanks for the fourm now lets move on

[complexintentions]

WJA 700: No point arguing with CI...He's sure he knows it all..Regardless of how many times he uses phrases like "I haven't been there in years"...

heheh Unlike YYZ, I actually MISS operating into YVR.

Hey MURRAY, since you're, like, an AIR TRAFFIC CONROLLER an' all...maybe you could do something useful and give a Canadian controller's opinion on frequency changes? Please, tell us all how it's done at Pearson, (statistically) the greatest airport on the face of the earth.

Or would that eat into your slagging time too much?

[WJ700]

CI, what I'm telling you is look at the airport diagram. No physics required. The WestJet airplane never went more than 6 inches past the hold line. You are still 15 meters from the departing aircraft behind the hold line. I was there last week, were you?

The WestJet asked 'confirm we are cleared in' before moving the aircraft.

As a Captain, if I'm listening to a clearance like that... I'd be tempted to taxi in. However, this Captain looked to his left, saw the NW departing and never started to move. So the 'near miss' is purely media fiction.

[Four1oh]

2 planes that nearly collided at LAX were only 37 feet apart, report says
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By Susannah Rosenblatt, Los Angeles Times Staff Writer
August 23, 2007
A near-collision between two planes on a runway at Los Angeles International Airport last week was closer than originally estimated: The two airliners were only 37 feet apart, aviation officials reported Wednesday.

A WestJet Boeing 737 that had arrived from Calgary, Canada, was crossing the runway about 1 p.m. Aug. 16 when it almost collided with a Northwest Airlines Airbus A320 that was speeding toward takeoff, said a preliminary report by the National Transportation Safety Board.

The board investigates the six to 10 most serious such incidents each year, said spokesman Ted Lopatkiewicz.

The WestJet pilot switched to a different radio frequency before being cleared by tower controllers to taxi across the Northwest plane's runway. A ground controller then mistakenly instructed the pilot to proceed across the runway.

The WestJet plane traveled slowly toward the Northwest plane, which sped up to about 150 mph in preparation for takeoff, said Ian Gregor, spokesman for the Federal Aviation Administration, which also is investigating the incident.

Officials initially said the two planes were about 50 feet apart. A plane on the taxiway should be at least 205 feet from the edge of the runway, Gregor said.

This is the seventh runway incursion at LAX since Oct. 1, 2006, Gregor said.

Of the about 657,000 takeoffs and landings from Oct. 1, 2005, to Sept. 30, 2006, there were eight incursions, he said. Among the 35 busiest commercial airports nationwide, LAX has the fifth-highest rate of such close calls, Gregor said.

Aircraft that land on the outer runway at LAX must cross the inner runway -- where planes take off -- to reach their gates.

Though a $330-million project is underway to move a runway on the south airfield to help reduce such problems, similar plans to reconfigure the north airfield have stalled due to community opposition.

This week, Los Angeles airport commissioners approved a sixth study of the safety of the airport's north runways.

"Most runway incursions are pretty minor," Gregor said. "The one we had last week certainly wasn't."

Because air traffic controllers are helping with the safety board's investigation, the National Air Traffic Controllers Assn., which represents about 14,000 controllers nationwide, declined to comment on the incident, spokesman Doug Church said.

susannah.rosenblatt@latimes

.com
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld ... nes-nation

A plane on the taxiway should be at least 205 feet from the edge of the runway, Gregor said.
um, is there even 205 feet BETWEEN the runways? Who screwed this information up? the FAA guy or the reporter?

[invertedattitude]

Well if this chart is to scale:

http://www.myairplane.com/databases/app ... 0237AD.PDF

Then there's more than 200 feet.

However considering a 737NG is around what 130 feet in length, I dont know how you could be 200 feet FROM either runway, there would need to be 530 feet, and you'd have to park it perfect even then.


Actually using the size of runway 25L (200 feet wide) a rough estimate puts the distance somewhere around 500 feet between the runways, 530 would be pushing it, and how the hell does a 747 get 200 feet even if it was?

Unless there's different procedures for those guys.

[BALLB]

I think it was a rookie mistake on the part of the WJ pilot and a momentary lack of SA on the part of the ground controller. No harm was done and the circumstance demonstrated a failing in procedures design.

The Tower should have emphatically directed the WJ pilots to hold short of the parallel and stay with it. This works at EWR just fine and has for many many years. In fact, the procedure usually works at LAX. Complacency can be a killer. Heads-up out there.

[Pratt]

CI, what I'm telling you is look at the airport diagram. No physics required. The WestJet airplane never went more than 6 inches past the hold line. You are still 15 meters from the departing aircraft behind the hold line. I was there last week, were you?

The WestJet asked 'confirm we are cleared in' before moving the aircraft.

As a Captain, if I'm listening to a clearance like that... I'd be tempted to taxi in. However, this Captain looked to his left, saw the NW departing and never started to move. So the 'near miss' is purely media fiction.

Congrats on the upgrade RJ, it is about time. I'll look you up when I am at home sometime.

Cheers

[Four1oh]

No doubt! you should have heard the whining! Oh wait, he's a captain now... :p