Air Canada Jazz to hire pilots from school
Tom Blackwell, National Post
Published: Sunday, August 26, 2007
Faced with a growing pilot shortage, Air Canada Jazz has launched an experimental program to hire several cockpit crew every year straight from flight school, ushering in pilots with hundreds of hours' less experience than those traditionally recruited by the airline.
The program has left some current Jazz pilots "in an uproar," but the airline insists it can incorporate the less-seasoned aviators without compromising safety.
Experts say other Canadian airlines may have to resort to similar recruiting tactics as the booming air industries in Asia and Europe lure more and more experienced crew away from North America.
Mike Daugherty, 20, admitted he was "shocked" when the company made him a tentative job offer just after graduating this spring from Sault College's aviation program. He starts in September and could be co-piloting a Dash-8 or Bombardier Regional Jet by January.
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Font: ****Such graduates typically have about 250 hours flight time, as much as 50 hours of that on a simulator. A regular job posting that Jazz currently has on the Internet demands a minimum of 1,500 hours.
"There are individuals that might look at this as a negative thing, as a setback, just because we have lack of flight experience, which I totally understand," Mr. Daugherty said.
"That was my big question when this program first started: There's a whole bunch of us going in there with very minimal flight time. Is that going to pose a big problem? But we kind of make up for lack of experience with personal skills, management skills, and we're pretty adaptable."
The airline is still hiring more experienced pilots as well, but is testing out its new "partnership" with several community-college flying programs to try to avert any problems down the road, said Manon Stuart, a Jazz spokeswoman. The eight college graduates, picked for being the top students at their schools, will get months of training at the airline before starting work as first officers, or co-pilots, on actual passenger-carrying flights, and will only do that if they are deemed fully qualified, she said.
Brian Shury, a Jazz captain and a spokesman for the pilots' union, the Air Line Pilots Association, said he believes the program can be implemented safely, if proper steps are followed. Nonetheless, a risk assessment is being conducted to be certain, he said.
Not everyone at the company is happy about it, though.
"The line pilots at Jazz are in an uproar, even to the point of having unofficial petitions posted on pilot bulletin boards," said an employee who did not want to be identified. "Not only does the average pilot think that this hiring scheme is ludicrous, many line captains feel they are ill-prepared and ill-trained to monitor and manage ... these inexperienced co-pilots."
Ms. Stuart pointed to estimates that 17,000 extra pilots will be needed annually over the next 20 years just to accommodate the new aircraft that companies have ordered. "The pool is depleting and is depleting rapidly."
Pilots for North American airlines that have frozen or cut back salaries to recover from post-9/11 financial woes are increasingly being poached by booming, and better-paying, companies in China, Southeast Asia, India and the Middle East, said Capt. Shury. Popular discount carriers in Europe are also snapping up staff.
"The pilot shortage is going to be incredible," said Dan Mahoney, a former U.S. Airways pilot and aviation safety consultant. "Everyone is flying, they've got hundreds of aircraft on order and they need pilots ... As much as we have concerns [about hiring inexperienced pilots], there are no options for the airlines any more."
Some European carriers, including Lufthansa, have already started recruiting inexperienced flight-school graduates, said Mr. Mahoney.
The lack of experience can be mitigated to a certain extent with extra training, and training for the captains on how to teach novice crew members, he said.
There really is no replacement, though, for experience, said Capt. Shury. A pilot with a few thousand hours "has time to mature," would likely have handled one or more emergencies and experienced a variety of bad weather, he said. Still, European airlines such as Austria's Tyrolean have instituted programs like Jazz's with apparent success, he said.
"We're certainly not going to sit back ... if we believe the program is not completely safe," added Capt. Shury.
Mr. Daugherty got his private licence as a teenager and studied at Sault College for three years after high school. The Ottawa native figured he would get a job doing fire patrols in Northern Ontario, then progress to air ambulances before winning his dream airline job. Training at the college was on a Czech single-engine plane called a Zlin 242-L and the twin-engine Piper Seminole.
He acknowledged that Jazz's 37-seat Dash-8 and the 50-seat Regional Jet are quite different vehicles.
Each one is "a bigger aircraft, flies a little faster and carries a few more people," he said. "I almost want to say it's like night and day, but there are some similarities."
I wonder what Joe Public is gonna think of this. Not good anyway. I think it's funny that they forget to mention that most of their pilots are leaving to WestJet and back to their previous companys. Overseas my ass.
Jazz to Hire Pilots From Schools.
Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore, I WAS Birddog
Airlines are a capital-intensive commodity business, and as such must do almost anything to try to reduce their costs ...
Naturally, this involves paying their pilots as little as possible.
There is no shortage of pilots. However, there may be a momentary shortage of experienced pilots who are willing to work for crap wages in locales with high costs of living.
For people that have difficulty understand the above, I tell them that my driveway suffers from a severe "Ferrari Shortage" because I am unwilling to pay market prices for a Ferrari
Naturally, this involves paying their pilots as little as possible.
There is no shortage of pilots. However, there may be a momentary shortage of experienced pilots who are willing to work for crap wages in locales with high costs of living.
For people that have difficulty understand the above, I tell them that my driveway suffers from a severe "Ferrari Shortage" because I am unwilling to pay market prices for a Ferrari
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small penguin
- Rank 5
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- Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2007 9:55 am
I'd just like to say. I took my PPL with Mr. Daugherty and he was very knowledgable. Ok at times a little cocky and arguementative but still a good pilot. He went to Sue pretty much after course.
While time is good for hiring, whos to say someone with the minimum 1500 hours will react better than someone like Mr. Daugherty who may only have about 300 hours. Some people react better than others. Some people could have low time but have experienced a lot of emergencies, as compared to someone sitting in a flying bus experiencing the same routine day in and day out.
I dont have a lot of time myself, but I've had my share of experiences. Half my total time is in cross country flights, of which those have stretched as far as 1200 nautical miles out from home. I've experienced in-flight emergency (alternator failure at night), I know what its like to have to modify a flight plan and land at an alternate, etc etc.
Just because we're new, doesnt mean we're stupid.
Dont flame the new pilots such as Mr. Daugherty, if anyone, either blame the industry, or blame your fellow pilots who refuse to work for low wages. If it werent for these two, Jazz wouldnt be looking at hiring Mr. Daugherty I'd imagine.
And dont forget, the aging baby boomer plays a role in this too.
While time is good for hiring, whos to say someone with the minimum 1500 hours will react better than someone like Mr. Daugherty who may only have about 300 hours. Some people react better than others. Some people could have low time but have experienced a lot of emergencies, as compared to someone sitting in a flying bus experiencing the same routine day in and day out.
I dont have a lot of time myself, but I've had my share of experiences. Half my total time is in cross country flights, of which those have stretched as far as 1200 nautical miles out from home. I've experienced in-flight emergency (alternator failure at night), I know what its like to have to modify a flight plan and land at an alternate, etc etc.
Just because we're new, doesnt mean we're stupid.
Dont flame the new pilots such as Mr. Daugherty, if anyone, either blame the industry, or blame your fellow pilots who refuse to work for low wages. If it werent for these two, Jazz wouldnt be looking at hiring Mr. Daugherty I'd imagine.
And dont forget, the aging baby boomer plays a role in this too.
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TheEvilTwin
- Rank 1
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- Joined: Tue May 01, 2007 9:02 am
Maybe if the Jazz wage was more respectable they wouldn't be in this situation.. to say there is a shortage is a load of Fecking BS... people are just getting smarter these days and finally releizing that working for an airline isn't all its cracked up to be... (especially to be on call in YYZ for 35K.. have fun living in cardboard box on scraps!!)
Re: Jazz to Hire Pilots From Schools.
This is my favorite quote of all. I'm a 200-250 hour wonder and i KNOW i know dick all. None of these "skills" are going to make up for the lack of real world experience. Now this isn't to say 250 hour pilots aren't safe as copilots, some are some aren't. But i think its unfair to put the captains in this sort of situation (heck it sucks for the captains in charter companies too but you have to start somewhere) point is these captains probably have put up with their share of low time co-pilots and while they may be able to handle it, at this point in their career, who would want to.2low wrote: "That was my big question when this program first started: There's a whole bunch of us going in there with very minimal flight time. Is that going to pose a big problem? But we kind of make up for lack of experience with personal skills, management skills, and we're pretty adaptable."
as compared to someone sitting in a flying bus experiencing the same routine day in and day out.
There's the problem right there.... as soon as you consider flying a routine day in and day out your going to make mistakes! After you get a few thousand hours you'll learn there is no routine flight... you have try and take something away from each flight so you don't get lazy and complacent.
Having trouble reaching ATC? Squak 7500
[quote]I'd just like to say. I took my PPL with Mr. Daugherty and he was very knowledgable. Ok at times a little cocky and arguementative but still a good pilot. He went to Sue pretty much after course.
While time is good for hiring, whos to say someone with the minimum 1500 hours will react better than someone like Mr. Daugherty who may only have about 300 hours. Some people react better than others. Some people could have low time but have experienced a lot of emergencies, as compared to someone sitting in a flying bus experiencing the same routine day in and day out.
I dont have a lot of time myself, but I've had my share of experiences. Half my total time is in cross country flights, of which those have stretched as far as 1200 nautical miles out from home. I've experienced in-flight emergency (alternator failure at night), I know what its like to have to modify a flight plan and land at an alternate, etc etc.
Just because we're new, doesnt mean we're stupid.
Dont flame the new pilots such as Mr. Daugherty, if anyone, either blame the industry, or blame your fellow pilots who refuse to work for low wages. If it werent for these two, Jazz wouldnt be looking at hiring Mr. Daugherty I'd imagine.
And dont forget, the aging baby boomer plays a role in this too.
You're an idiot
While time is good for hiring, whos to say someone with the minimum 1500 hours will react better than someone like Mr. Daugherty who may only have about 300 hours. Some people react better than others. Some people could have low time but have experienced a lot of emergencies, as compared to someone sitting in a flying bus experiencing the same routine day in and day out.
I dont have a lot of time myself, but I've had my share of experiences. Half my total time is in cross country flights, of which those have stretched as far as 1200 nautical miles out from home. I've experienced in-flight emergency (alternator failure at night), I know what its like to have to modify a flight plan and land at an alternate, etc etc.
Just because we're new, doesnt mean we're stupid.
Dont flame the new pilots such as Mr. Daugherty, if anyone, either blame the industry, or blame your fellow pilots who refuse to work for low wages. If it werent for these two, Jazz wouldnt be looking at hiring Mr. Daugherty I'd imagine.
And dont forget, the aging baby boomer plays a role in this too.
You're an idiot
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canpilot
- Rank 7
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- Location: Richmond B.C. Canada
- Contact:
Yes, I am sure you have experience..
However, the kind of " experience" we are talking about is as follows:
-Heavy Loads.
-Shit wx and having to give er/ have a look at it..
-MAJOR IN-FLIGHT EMERGENCIES!
-In short, PILOT DECISION MAKING!
-Making critial no-go/ go decisions when lives/ $ are at stake.
-Knowing when to say know.
-having to make tough calls on your OWN!
-General Skill.
Hell, i'm sure someone with 1,000 hours etc is still learning. Real world Commerical flying experience teaches these things.. not 100 hours in circuit.
However, the kind of " experience" we are talking about is as follows:
-Heavy Loads.
-Shit wx and having to give er/ have a look at it..
-MAJOR IN-FLIGHT EMERGENCIES!
-In short, PILOT DECISION MAKING!
-Making critial no-go/ go decisions when lives/ $ are at stake.
-Knowing when to say know.
-having to make tough calls on your OWN!
-General Skill.
Hell, i'm sure someone with 1,000 hours etc is still learning. Real world Commerical flying experience teaches these things.. not 100 hours in circuit.
I think a guy with 250 hours can be trained into a very good FO, it’s done all the time in Europe. For a few years, I had the pleasure of flying in the UK with low time guys and they were superb! Lots of experience or lots of schooling.... both systems work.
But, I do think there should be an age limit for flying commercially. The part of a human’s brain that judges risk is not fully developed until the mid 20s.
On another note, I am getting frustrated watching Jazz pilots parachuting in over me at AC, after all it is a separate company.
But, I do think there should be an age limit for flying commercially. The part of a human’s brain that judges risk is not fully developed until the mid 20s.
On another note, I am getting frustrated watching Jazz pilots parachuting in over me at AC, after all it is a separate company.
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small penguin
- Rank 5
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- Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2007 9:55 am
I'll never understand why its so easy to stir up a shit storm in this place...
Every flight is different. Every flight has a lesson to be learned out of it.
As for the age thing, I do agree young people are more ... risky could be the word. That aside, I know a lot of young people who fit the job moreso than the old pessimistic pilot
The same goes with flight time. Outside of the commercial air service, a lot of pilots I know have hundreds and hundreds of hours. Doing circuits and local flights. When the weather craps out or the flaps fail, hey they're already in the circuit.
I know other pilots, like myself, who dont quite like to "fly local". Ok so at this stage I dont have all the hours, but I can happily say I have more cross country time than some flight instructors I've met. I've been to more airports than most pilots I know with about the same flying time as I. And of everyone I fly with, I know of no one who's had the opertunity to experience an in-flight emergency. Those who come close, have experienced Nordo while in the circuit, or partial engine failure during run up. *shrugs*
No I dont have commercial service "grade" experience and emergencies under my belt, I havent gone that far yet. And to be honest, I dont want to go into that field of aviation.
And for the record, I never went to Sue.
I agree these are skills that will be learned working for airlines. And not flying that 150 from the local school.-Heavy Loads.
-Shit wx and having to give er/ have a look at it..
-MAJOR IN-FLIGHT EMERGENCIES!
-In short, PILOT DECISION MAKING!
-Making critial no-go/ go decisions when lives/ $ are at stake.
-Knowing when to say know.
-having to make tough calls on your OWN!
-General Skill.
I completly agree with that. Does Apollo 13 ring a bell? Do all these accidents I read about on THESE VERY FORUMS ring a bell? A lot of them are caused because hey, flying to them is a routine, no sweat.There's the problem right there.... as soon as you consider flying a routine day in and day out your going to make mistakes! After you get a few thousand hours you'll learn there is no routine flight... you have try and take something away from each flight so you don't get lazy and complacent.
Every flight is different. Every flight has a lesson to be learned out of it.
As for the age thing, I do agree young people are more ... risky could be the word. That aside, I know a lot of young people who fit the job moreso than the old pessimistic pilot
The same goes with flight time. Outside of the commercial air service, a lot of pilots I know have hundreds and hundreds of hours. Doing circuits and local flights. When the weather craps out or the flaps fail, hey they're already in the circuit.
I know other pilots, like myself, who dont quite like to "fly local". Ok so at this stage I dont have all the hours, but I can happily say I have more cross country time than some flight instructors I've met. I've been to more airports than most pilots I know with about the same flying time as I. And of everyone I fly with, I know of no one who's had the opertunity to experience an in-flight emergency. Those who come close, have experienced Nordo while in the circuit, or partial engine failure during run up. *shrugs*
No I dont have commercial service "grade" experience and emergencies under my belt, I havent gone that far yet. And to be honest, I dont want to go into that field of aviation.
I never bashed them hehe I do recall saying that YOU GUYS should blame them instead of us. We've done nothing wrong.Took the words right outta my mouth mang.. This kid should be thanking those who refuse to put up with shit pay etc.. Not slamming em..
This is another issue I have with flight colleges..people's attitudes!! F*&(
And for the record, I never went to Sue.
That proves you don't know what your talkin about.small penguin wrote: While time is good for hiring, whos to say someone with the minimum 1500 hours will react better than someone like Mr. Daugherty who may only have about 300 hours. Some people react better than others. Some people could have low time but have experienced a lot of emergencies, as compared to someone sitting in a flying bus experiencing the same routine day in and day out.
LOLOLOL, I suppose you think having to take a major shit a night an emergency as wellI dont have a lot of time myself, but I've had my share of experiences. I've experienced in-flight emergency (alternator failure at night), I know what its like to have to modify a flight plan and land at an alternate, etc etc.
And it is this quote why you better hope I never meet you. This kinda of remark just shows your maturity. To say that after all the years of busting our ass that WE, (Not you little snott nosed punks) should stay with a company that pays what jazz is paying. @#$! YOUDont flame the new pilots such as Mr. Daugherty, if anyone, blame your fellow pilots who refuse to work for low wages.
