Up to five Canadian water bombers may fly to Greece

teacher · Post by **teacher** » Tue Aug 28, 2007 4:45 pm

Not a bad summer gig.......

Up to five Canadian water bombers are available to fly to Greece

By SCOTT SUTHERLAND

VICTORIA (CP) - Canada has five water bombers and three support aircraft ready to fly to Greece to help beat down the devastating wild fires that have killed scores and threatened ancient historical sites.

"We received a request from the Greek embassy through our foreign affairs office Monday," said Tom Johnston, operations manager of the Interagency Forest Fire Centre in Winnipeg. Initially a number of land-based aircraft were offered up by provincial management agencies, but Greece is not set up for that kind of fire-fighting.

A second call was put out for water-based bombers, which fill their tanks by skimming across a lake or the sea.

"We've had responses from British Columbia, Alberta and Manitoba indicating their skimmer operations could be made available," Johnston said.

British Columbia has offered one of two giant Martin Mars bombers, which are Second World War-vintage flying boats under private ownership. As well, a "bird dog" spotter plane and an air attack officer to lead the operations are available.

Alberta and Manitoba have each offered a pair of Canadair CL-215s, plus spotters planes and air attack personnel.

"These packages have been put together and sent to foreign affairs," Johnston said late Tuesday.

If the offer is accepted, it would mean long flights for the planes and crews.

"They'd have to go through Newfoundland, probably jump off at Gander, I'm assuming, to Greenland, Iceland, the British Isles and then down into Greece through Europe," he said, estimating that it would take at least three days of flight time, plus several days preparation prior to departure and time to set up once they arrive.

"Could be four, five or six days before they're ready to go to work."

Johnston said Canadian teams regularly go to the United States, and have been sent to South America and even the Galapagos Islands in the past.

He was not aware of any previous requests from Europe.

And if the request had come at the height of the Canadian summer season, it would likely not have been possible. But the end of the forest fire season is approaching.

"It's a little more acceptable to allow our big assets to go on an international front, but even so, we aren't at the end of our season yet," he said, adding that southcentral B.C. is still hot and dry, as is southwestern Alberta.

Johnston said he hoped to hear back on the package offer as quickly as possible.

"Obviously time is of the essence."

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2007 ... 52978.html

Lommer · Post by **Lommer** » Tue Aug 28, 2007 7:07 pm

Wow, that would be the trip of a lifetime - flying a martin mars from Port Alberni all the way over to Greece! If they took a film crew along the flight, fire-fighting, and return would make an awesome documentary.

rigpiggy · Post by **rigpiggy** » Tue Aug 28, 2007 8:14 pm

according to wiki, the mars has a range of 4300nm, rough guesstimate is around 5500 miles. throw on a relief crew and make the uk first day, 24 hrs rest and on to greece. maybe send another crew to the uk, or greece so they'll be rested and ready to go. hard but doable

CLguy · Post by **CLguy** » Tue Aug 28, 2007 8:41 pm

And where exactly would the Mars refuel!! Just land in the English Channel pull up to a beach and start rolling 45 gallon drums to it!!

Sounds good in theory but I honestly can't see the Mars making the trip.

dhc-t2 · Post by **dhc-t2** » Tue Aug 28, 2007 9:19 pm

Maybe it can load its water tanks up with Avgas & fly around the world on one tank!

Seriously though, that aircraft will wipe out a small airport of all its 100LL.

Should be a good contract for them if they do it. I bet the value will be mega bucks.

Lommer · Post by **Lommer** » Tue Aug 28, 2007 10:05 pm

Perhaps they could pull up to Toronto city center airport and get a really long hose... Can you imagine the yuppies' reactions?

But seriously, it wouldn't be hard to order a B-train tanker full of Avgas to meet the Mars at a dock somewhere. I found number 11,000 USG as the fuel capacity of the Mars, since these B-trains hold >60,000L it wouldn't be a problem. They also come with pumps and a PTO. If the Mars doesn't make the trip I think it would be parts and service that hold it back (and even that hurdle isn't unsolvable), not fuel.

dhc-t2 · Post by **dhc-t2** » Tue Aug 28, 2007 10:52 pm

I wonder just how many pilots are ready on stand by & checked out to fly these two Mars? I can't imagine you would find a 'Mars' pilot in any corner of the country.

That being said, I wonder what & how much training it takes to get familerized in this aircraft. Imagine stepping out of a C-172 & hopping in the Martin Mars!

CLguy · Post by **CLguy** » Wed Aug 29, 2007 6:19 am

Lommer, the Mars has a longer wingspan than a 747, do you think you would just pull up to a dock and meet a B Train full of fuel??

T2, there is only one Mars operational this summer but there are still a limited number of pilots to crew even that one!!

The Mars won't be heading to Greece in our lifetime unless it is on a barge!!

dhc-t2 · Post by **dhc-t2** » Wed Aug 29, 2007 6:26 am

CLguy - That's what I suspected... Political smoke & mirrors.. Mostly smoke i'd say.

arsenal · Post by **arsenal** » Wed Aug 29, 2007 8:09 am

The Mars stows all the needed hoses, boats etc inside. I think it would be similar to what it has to do in the Okanagan when it is not returning to Alberni. Everything it needs should be boxed up and could be loaded inside for a long trip. It did a few weeks in Slave Lake 4-5 years ago.

Don't remember which one is operational this year but one of their fuel tanks were turned into water tanks so it's range is reduced, the other has its original fuel tanks which puts it into the 24 hr endurance area i think.

Conquest Driver · Post by **Conquest Driver** » Wed Aug 29, 2007 9:12 am

Don't forget about 8, 45 gallon drums of oil per fuel stop.

Lommer · Post by **Lommer** » Wed Aug 29, 2007 9:20 am

There are not many pilots qualified on the Mars, the guys in that outfit are usually dual AMEs/pilots with thousands of hours on floats/firebombing and as many hours wrenching. IIRC, they're set up with a machine shop in Pt. Alberni where they make all their own spare parts.

2R · Post by 2R » Wed Aug 29, 2007 11:39 am

I do hope that our Government shows great enthusiasm to help the Greeks .We need to support our friends in time of great disaster.

Panama Jack · Post by **Panama Jack** » Wed Aug 29, 2007 1:23 pm

I recall that in 1998 during the wildfires that were plagueing Indonesia, there was some discussion and plans drawn up by the then-owners of the Martin Mars water bombers to send them to Asia to fight fires as a lucrative contract.

One of the sticking points, it seamed was the reluctance of the pilots, who were used to living most of their lives in Port Alberni, to leave home for an extended period of time to Asia to fight fires there. I am sure that there were a few more snags, but this was one of the issues at the time.

Of course, in the last 10 years attitudes may have changed somewhat, since the Martin Mars people have gone through ownership changes and their own "come to Jesus" moments about the future of their careers, and not even that long ago.

Mr. North · Post by **Mr. North** » Thu Aug 30, 2007 10:08 am

Whatever the case, it's trips like these that make me think about water bombing more and more! Tell me CLguy, is there a bunch of infighting as to who is selected to go or is it based on seniority?

hazatude · Post by **hazatude** » Thu Aug 30, 2007 2:34 pm

60000 litres!

Sweet Jesus and Mary!

CLguy · Post by **CLguy** » Thu Aug 30, 2007 5:53 pm

Mr. North, no there isn't any infighting because as of yet there has been no mention of our 415's going to Greece and there wouldn't be anyway. Possibly a nose or two out of joint but that would be about it. Some guys are not even interested in being part of a deployment like this.

I know in the past when ramping up for this type of deployment it was done mainly on experience levels. Some guys have flown in Europe, others have ocean scooping experience from other parts of the world while others also have mountain experience, stronger backgrounds in IFR operations etc. Some of the guys have never flown outside of NWO so it would not make much sense from a safety perspective to send them to some part of the world where conditions exist that they have no experience in.

arsenal · Post by **arsenal** » Thu Aug 30, 2007 7:43 pm

VANCOUVER/CKNW(AM980) - One part of the package Canada has offered to help with wildfires in Greece has been declined.

Serge Poulan with the Canadian Interagency Forest Fire Centre says a massive water bomber from British Columbia won't be needed.

"We received notice yesterday that at this time there doesn't seem to be a need for the Martin Mars in Greece at this time."

Poulan attributes the decision to Greece being unfamiliar with the aircraft. He’s hoping to hear word later today whether the other air tankers and personnel that have been offered will be accepted.