MCA, yeh you are bang on about the quality of instruction offered at some schools.
But how about that college that has a 5 knot X/ wind restriction for students?
Are all landings now only done into wind in commercial aviation?
Ontario Restricting CPL instruction
Moderators: lilfssister, North Shore, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, I WAS Birddog
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Cat Driver
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Cat Driver
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you're right, i attended one of these pussy-schools that were recalling their students home when the ceiling got under 10 000'... not a way to train professionnals.Cat Driver wrote:But how about that college that has a 5 knot X/ wind restriction for students?
but i stand with my opinion that such a system would eventually eliminate natural dumbasses that could eventually make it to a cockpit. i approve darwin's theory, but it's sad when it kills innocent people. just have to remember Air Satellite crash in 1998, CYBC, Qc. i'm damn sorry, but that guy shouldn't have make it to the left seat.
I'm intercontinental when I eat french toast
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Cat Driver
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One thing Jim Dow has that we don't Clunk is a protected full time job that has no performance requirement and pays a good salary with work hours and benefits we could only dream of.I think you should join Jim Dow in TC, he is the only other person in the industry who shares your opinion.
Regardless of how incompetent he may be he is safe from acountability and when he finally retires he will be able to double dip with a real good paying job for one of the friends he has made during his stint payed for by you and me the taxpayers of Canada.
Makes one wonder sometimes just what one should have done.
However looking backfrom my life experiences I would feel more personal self worth had I became a common criminal rather than be a Jim Dow.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
clunckdriver wrote:... it has been my experience over some 30,000hrs plus is that few of the college grads have the fundimental hands and feet skills, not to mention the almost total lack of human relations skills to make it in this industry, in fact the highest "fired for due cause" in both the major carrier I worked for and my own companies have been such grads, in fact Ive reached the point I wont even interview them any more, just cant afford the bent airplanes, yes there are exceptions, and its proberbly not fair that I paint you all with the same brush, but in giving your ilk a chance in the past damn nearly cost me my OC. The point is this thread is about the Provincial Government steping into Federall turf, not about your percieved superiority, in regards to this bias you show if the college system is so damn good how come Sault now has to beg pilots with other full time jobs to step in and try to save their program and how come a survey done by the very department which funds these programs pointed out that only 20% of grads are still in aviation after five years? I think you should join Jim Dow in TC, he is the only other person in the industry who shares your opinion.
wow! nice rant!
1- i don't buy your theory that only graduates from colleges break aircraft. i prefer to laugh at people who attended private schools, fly a turboprop, have over 4000 hrs, and believe their engines have pistons (real story heard just days ago; this brain-wrecked could be YOUR employee, and he's gonna fur sure break your AC and kill your clients!)
2- i don't feel superior, i just think that i didn't have the luxury to fail my exams 'cause my school would have simply kicked me out.
3- i don't give a shit about sault college. the one i attended was free of charge, hence maybe a little bit more serious on the selection process.
4- i also don't give a shit about jim dow, and i don't feel any need to go talk to him about this situation.
5- your 30 000+ hours doesn't make you own the truth and rightness, only experience, and maybe some kind of wisdom.
I'm intercontinental when I eat french toast
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Cat Driver
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Nice rant MCA:
I take it you graduated from some college, did they teach you how to fly after you passed all those exams?
We are always looking for exceptionally gifted hands and feet pilots and what they got on their exams is secondary.
I take it you graduated from some college, did they teach you how to fly after you passed all those exams?
We are always looking for exceptionally gifted hands and feet pilots and what they got on their exams is secondary.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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HighBypass
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Ive been bad at x-winds ever since that x-wind limit was put into effect. I just hope my bosses dont find out!Cat Driver wrote:MCA, yeh you are bang on about the quality of instruction offered at some schools.
But how about that college that has a 5 knot X/ wind restriction for students?
Are all landings now only done into wind in commercial aviation?
R. Perdactor
well, yes, they did.... i can fax you a copy of my CPL flight test that shows a marvellous perfect score. the only other guy i know who got that score is also from this school.Cat Driver wrote:I take it you graduated from some college, did they teach you how to fly after you passed all those exams?
and you know what? i was pretty pissed to see that all these efforts were overall useless, 'cause employers do as you say and don't bother to ask how you succeed at school. because having good knowledge is not important at all, you just need to look like a pilot, talk like a pilot, and bullshit your way to a cockpit!
but essentially, what pisses me off the most, is that anyone who's got the money can at least become a pilot, and eventually make it to a major carrier, without ever attending any kind of school that is recognized by the government.
no one would like to be butchered by a plastic surgeon who "bought" his practice licence; no one would like to have his eyes cured from myopia by a guy who never attended a few university classes; would you like your children to be taught by someone who's improvising him/herself a teacher? would you get your teeth repaired by a fucking clown? no. but we abandon our lives in the hands of people who litterally bought their ATPL, and thus their career. that is something that pisses me off.
so yes, close all those private schools that issue CPL, make it a university degree, and i'll be happy.
I'm intercontinental when I eat french toast
and if they do so, you will all be crawling under job offers, due to a massive lack of qualified pilots.. and then this job will be glamorous again. not that this side of the job attracts me, but the most stupid, ignorant, arrogant, close-minded people i've ever met were almost all pilots.MCA wrote: close all those private schools that issue CPL, make it a university degree
I'm intercontinental when I eat french toast
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Cat Driver
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Getting a degree does not necessarily make for a good pilot.but essentially, what pisses me off the most, is that anyone who's got the money can at least become a pilot, and eventually make it to a major carrier, without ever attending any kind of school that is recognized by the government.
One can learn everything one needs to know to fly anything in the air without having a degree. I would venture to say thousands of sucessful pilots did not have a degree, hell I did not even have high school and managed to learn how to fly most everything that flies.
I have no idea what brought you to the above conclusions but closing the mom and pop schools and going the college route will not be the answer either.MCA wrote:
close all those private schools that issue CPL, make it a university degree
and if they do so, you will all be crawling under job offers, due to a massive lack of qualified pilots.. and then this job will be glamorous again. not that this side of the job attracts me, but the most stupid, ignorant, arrogant, close-minded people i've ever met were almost all pilots.
When was flying glamourous? I've been a working pilot for over fifty years and can't recall it being nothing more than a job.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
maybe not, but darwin won't have to make most of the selection... grades, physical and intellectual aptitudes and PR-capacity will....Cat Driver wrote: closing the mom and pop schools and going the college route will not be the answer either.
I'm intercontinental when I eat french toast
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Cat Driver
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Are you suggesting that to be a good safe pilot you must pass an intellectual aptitude test and PR tests?maybe not, but darwin won't have to make most of the selection... grades, physical and intellectual aptitudes and PR-capacity will....
And who will determine what these tests contain?
Flying an airplane is not some dark science that requires extraordinary abilities.
Flying airplanes is driving a vehicle and the unsafe, unsatisfactory skills drivers can be weeded out by proper management at the level of the chief pilot.
I will grant that a degree in computer management skills would be beneficial for the new generation of commercial aircraft.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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HighBypass
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computer management
Good one.... and is this how airline pilots of the future want to be remembered as?? computer programmers?Cat Driver wrote:I will grant that a degree in computer management skills would be beneficial for the new generation of commercial aircraft.
Roger Perdactor
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Cat Driver
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I made that comment based on the fact that modern airliners are controlled by computers that are operated by pilots, so understanding computers would be an advantage.Good one.... and is this how airline pilots of the future want to be remembered as?? computer programmers?
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Private Career Training Institutions Act
Hi clunckdriver,
You can find the act you want here:
http://www.qp.gov.bc.ca/statreg/stat/P/03079_01.htm
And you can find the regulation here:
http://www.qp.gov.bc.ca/statreg/reg/P/466_2004.htm
All of the BC statutes and regs are here:
http://www.qp.gov.bc.ca/statreg/list_statreg.htm
Keep up the good fight.
K
You can find the act you want here:
http://www.qp.gov.bc.ca/statreg/stat/P/03079_01.htm
And you can find the regulation here:
http://www.qp.gov.bc.ca/statreg/reg/P/466_2004.htm
All of the BC statutes and regs are here:
http://www.qp.gov.bc.ca/statreg/list_statreg.htm
Keep up the good fight.
K
Another Meeting by the Ontario Gov't
I just received a letter from the Ont gov't inviting me to another "Training Session" on Tuesday June 5, 2007 to be held at the Brampton Flight Centre. In this letter they included a Q&A document that includes the following info:
1. if an FTU is going to teach CPL, Instructors or flight engineers then it will have to register with the program or request TC remove those programs from their certification;
2. free-lance instructors will not have to be part of the program; and
3. the cost of aircraft rental must be included in the cost of the training thus increasing our contribution to the fund by a factor of about 2.5.
Admittance to this training session is gained by sending them an email to privatecareercollegesact@ontario.ca. I suggest that when we send them our emails we include a request that the Minister attend. If we all make that request it may be very difficult for him to refuse. I further suggest that we email him directly with the same invitation. I would truly like to hear if any of you like this idea.
These people need to understand that this Act has the potential to eliminate virtually all FTUs in Ontario within the next 5 to 10 years. Why? Well, if all CPL training is done by "Colleges" and their students are all hired by airlines, where are the future Instructors going to come from? Do we get the worst graduates as instructors? Are you going to hire them? Is it really the government's position that it wants to close down an industry and put all these people out of work and companies out of business?
What about all those people in GA who simply want to get their CPL because the additional training will provide them better flying skills? If they cannot do this then will not the skill level of GA deteriorate over time?
Does the Ont Gov't really want us to charge more for CPL training than we currently do? I can assure you all that if we have to pay a registration fee and pay into a security fund (one that our students will never have the privilege of withdrawing money from) that we will not cover the costs our of our pockets. Instead we will charge a registration fee for CPL and Instructor ratings and increase the cost of these programs to cover the costs of the security deposits plus the additional taxes represented by the "extra income". We will also make it quite clear to our students that the extra costs are effectively a tax by the Ont Gov't that they are paying.
There are questions that I have asked that have never been answered. They include:
1. Are private flight clubs covered by the act?
2. What is to stop us from setting up seperate companies for A/C rental and Flight Training?
3. How are we supposed to cover fluctuating fuel prices in our contracts if the contracts are to be fixed price?
4. What do we do with the student who needs more work at the conclusion of his training because his money has run out?
5. Why can't they just change their definition slightly so that any company that never has more than $1,000 on account for a student is exempted (all courses that cost $1,000 or less are exempted)?
One more question. I have been led to believe that the enactment of this same program in BC has been held up because there is a court case about it. Can anyone confirm this? If so, where can we find out about it so we can a) bring it to the attention of Ont and b) perhaps do the same.
Sorry about the lengthy diatribe but these guys really get to me and my tiny gross profit margins.
1. if an FTU is going to teach CPL, Instructors or flight engineers then it will have to register with the program or request TC remove those programs from their certification;
2. free-lance instructors will not have to be part of the program; and
3. the cost of aircraft rental must be included in the cost of the training thus increasing our contribution to the fund by a factor of about 2.5.
Admittance to this training session is gained by sending them an email to privatecareercollegesact@ontario.ca. I suggest that when we send them our emails we include a request that the Minister attend. If we all make that request it may be very difficult for him to refuse. I further suggest that we email him directly with the same invitation. I would truly like to hear if any of you like this idea.
These people need to understand that this Act has the potential to eliminate virtually all FTUs in Ontario within the next 5 to 10 years. Why? Well, if all CPL training is done by "Colleges" and their students are all hired by airlines, where are the future Instructors going to come from? Do we get the worst graduates as instructors? Are you going to hire them? Is it really the government's position that it wants to close down an industry and put all these people out of work and companies out of business?
What about all those people in GA who simply want to get their CPL because the additional training will provide them better flying skills? If they cannot do this then will not the skill level of GA deteriorate over time?
Does the Ont Gov't really want us to charge more for CPL training than we currently do? I can assure you all that if we have to pay a registration fee and pay into a security fund (one that our students will never have the privilege of withdrawing money from) that we will not cover the costs our of our pockets. Instead we will charge a registration fee for CPL and Instructor ratings and increase the cost of these programs to cover the costs of the security deposits plus the additional taxes represented by the "extra income". We will also make it quite clear to our students that the extra costs are effectively a tax by the Ont Gov't that they are paying.
There are questions that I have asked that have never been answered. They include:
1. Are private flight clubs covered by the act?
2. What is to stop us from setting up seperate companies for A/C rental and Flight Training?
3. How are we supposed to cover fluctuating fuel prices in our contracts if the contracts are to be fixed price?
4. What do we do with the student who needs more work at the conclusion of his training because his money has run out?
5. Why can't they just change their definition slightly so that any company that never has more than $1,000 on account for a student is exempted (all courses that cost $1,000 or less are exempted)?
One more question. I have been led to believe that the enactment of this same program in BC has been held up because there is a court case about it. Can anyone confirm this? If so, where can we find out about it so we can a) bring it to the attention of Ont and b) perhaps do the same.
Sorry about the lengthy diatribe but these guys really get to me and my tiny gross profit margins.
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avcanada
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Re: Another Meeting by the Ontario Gov't
and if they refuse what kind of penalties are they going to attempt to enforce?fadavid wrote:
1. if an FTU is going to teach CPL, Instructors or flight engineers then it will have to register with the program or request TC remove those programs from their certification;
Clunckdriver can you bump the contact info to the end of this topic of the individuals you wish for us to contact, so we can all help you with letters of protest?
Joe
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avcanada
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{1} The Hon Lawrence Cannon.
Minister of Transport.
Tower C 330 Sparks St
Ottawa, Ont.
K1A0N5
Cannon.L@parl.gc.ca
{2} The Hon. Christopher Bentley.
Minister of Training, Colleges and Universities.
900 Bay St, 3rd Floor, Mowat Block
Toronto, Ont M7A1L2
cbentley.mpp.co@liberal.ola.org
cbentley.mpp@liberal.ola.org
{3}Hon Michael Bryant
Ministry of the Attorney General
720 Bay St, 11th Floor
Toronto, Ont M5G 2K1
mbryant.mpp.co@liberal.ola.org
mbryant.mpp@liberal.ola.org
{4} Hon Robert D Nicholson
Minister of Justice, Attorney General
House of Commons
Ottawa, Ont.
K1A0A6
Nicholson.R@parl.gc.ca
Donna Vogel
Senior Policy Adviser
Private Institutions Branch
Ministry of Training, Colleges and Universities
ph. 416 325 6266
fax. 416 314 0499
privatecareercollagesact@ontario.ca
I too received the "application" form to apply to be registered as a Private Career College today. Unfortunately, having the normal massive amount of other things to attend to (charter quotes, student inquiries, maintenance issues, hangar shuffles, bookkeeping, etc) I glanced over the front page. I failed to notice the requirement to "register or request Transport Canada remove Commercial training" from our FT OC. WHAT THE F>>>????!!!!! Who the H.. are they to tell me to remove anything from a FEDERAL license??!! I am now TOTALLY convinced that they've lost their bloody minds. Please, several other people have asked, if anyone has any info on the supposed BC court case, please post it! As for the most recent comment here about TC providing relief - no, I'm positive that this is simply the few things that the PCCA won't apply to FTU as the TC requirements more than meet them. Jim Dow is closer to getting his way. And talk about discrimination, FREELANCERS DON'T HAVE TO REGISTER????!!!!! and can still teach CAREER topics??? Who sees several big issues here?!
As for MCA - I am not a fan of internet argument and slander, and you are correct in your statment about pissing off a lot of people with your opinions. Thankfully, that's only what they are - the majority of people see the problems on many levels of this new legislation, and not just FTU owners. No one here would argue against good instruction, and turning out skilled pilots. But I would hazard that the majority of us would also agree that just because its a "college" does not mean it turns out a far superior pilot. There are soooo many factors, not all addressed by "college". This topic is about this legislation, and the problems, issues, and potential solutions we can come up with to deal with this and get it shut down. If you wish to argue the merits of college-trained pilots vs. what you refer to as "private schools", start a thread on it. We are all trying to figure out a way to continue doing what we (most of us, most days!) love to do.
As for MCA - I am not a fan of internet argument and slander, and you are correct in your statment about pissing off a lot of people with your opinions. Thankfully, that's only what they are - the majority of people see the problems on many levels of this new legislation, and not just FTU owners. No one here would argue against good instruction, and turning out skilled pilots. But I would hazard that the majority of us would also agree that just because its a "college" does not mean it turns out a far superior pilot. There are soooo many factors, not all addressed by "college". This topic is about this legislation, and the problems, issues, and potential solutions we can come up with to deal with this and get it shut down. If you wish to argue the merits of college-trained pilots vs. what you refer to as "private schools", start a thread on it. We are all trying to figure out a way to continue doing what we (most of us, most days!) love to do.
"oh, I have slipped.." into what, we're not sure
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saucer_driver
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Go to Manitoba
Manitoba has better weather for flying, cheaper hourly rates for flight training, and less expensive accomodation than Ontario. Go west.
Ballb
Ballb
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North Shore
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Ohhh, really constructive, BALLB...what are you going to do when the MB provincial government gets in on the action, and tries to do the same thing. Complain, when the precedent has already been set in Ontario? 
Say, what's that mountain goat doing up here in the mist?
Happiness is V1 at Thompson!
Ass, Licence, Job. In that order.
Happiness is V1 at Thompson!
Ass, Licence, Job. In that order.
