Renamed: "Rude controllers"/Protected airspace

FamilyGuy · Post by **FamilyGuy** » Sun Sep 16, 2007 3:04 pm

So, you can learn your nine sections of CARs that pertain to every known facet of aviation, or you can learn your couple of sections pertinent to IFR ATC...why fill your head with stuff that doesnt pertain to your job?

Sigh

ATC are not CARS cops granted, but you are required to know the rules. How are you going to know if you are approving a deviation from the CARS if you don't know what they say? How will you know what is important if you haven't at least read the whole thing? I'm guessing you are very new - in the old days, CARS (aeronautics act etc) were required reading and tested material - now it's just a pulse that seems to suffice. Weak.

That attitude will make for either a very short or very troublsome career.

tesox2 · Post by **tesox2** » Sun Sep 16, 2007 5:16 pm

Dont ever recall any exams based on CARs standards....but hey, Im only new right!

Seriously, your expectation to know the CARs is overstated. If I get a plane asking me to continue IFR flight without a serviceable warning device or vacuum indicator that shows the power available to gyroscopic instruments from each power source Im not going to say, "thats approved", because I dont know if the most recent CARs has said its required or not. I will respond "conduct operations as per IFR certification requirements"...come on....now if an IFR helicopter pilot told me was flying a machine built in October of 2002 and I heard he didnt have a shoulder harness in that machine....well, let me tell you I woud be ringing transport up ASAP!!

Now, the CARs that do pertain to my job are accounted for in MANOP sections that apply to my duties as an IFR controller, those of which I know quite well!!

My attitude towards my professional career is of utmost duty and concern for the safe conduct of air operations while under my care. I fail to see how you translate a troublesome career from the few brief comments Ive made regarding your high expectations to know the CARs.

killer84 · Post by **killer84** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 8:42 am

It used to be that tower controllers had to say "check gear down", but they stopped doing that because the legal implications if the controller forgot to say it and the pilot landed with no gear.

I can just imagine if we were required to ensure that every piece of a pilots equipment was certified and he was properly trained to use it. Suddenly the onus is on ATC to make sure the pilot isn't an idiot.

the_professor · Post by **the_professor** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 9:11 am

killer84 wrote:It used to be that tower controllers had to say "check gear down", but they stopped doing that because the legal implications if the controller forgot to say it and the pilot landed with no gear.

I don't understand that. There are a multitude of tasks and/or steps that controllers must follow for each aircraft in order to ensure safe handling of the flight. Why is the controller any more likely to forget including "check gear down" along with a landing clearance vs. forgetting to check if the runway is clear, or clearing an aircraft across a landing runway, or any other critical task? And how does someone try to argue that the gear is the controller's responsibility?

F'ing lawyers...

kevenv · Post by **kevenv** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 11:04 am

Military controllers still say check gear down as far as I know. Interesting part is that the controller has no legal obligation to verify it when the pilot says it's down. More than one a/c has tried to land with the gear up after saying it is down.

killer84 · Post by **killer84** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 11:18 am

the_professor wrote:
killer84 wrote:It used to be that tower controllers had to say "check gear down", but they stopped doing that because the legal implications if the controller forgot to say it and the pilot landed with no gear.
I don't understand that. There are a multitude of tasks and/or steps that controllers must follow for each aircraft in order to ensure safe handling of the flight. Why is the controller any more likely to forget including "check gear down" along with a landing clearance vs. forgetting to check if the runway is clear, or clearing an aircraft across a landing runway, or any other critical task? And how does someone try to argue that the gear is the controller's responsibility?

F'ing lawyers...

It's just defining what is a controller's responsibility, and what is a pilot's responsibility. It's a controller's responsibility to make sure the runway is clear, it's the pilots responsibility to ensure the gear is down, his flaps are set correctly, and such.

Just like it should be the pilot's responsibility to make sure he can use the equipment in his cockpit properly, not ATC's.

Doc · Post by **Doc** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 12:24 pm

But, everyone tells me, that it's not the controller's responsibility to look out the window to confirm the aircraft that he's just cleared for take off, is indeed taking off from the assigned runway. Has the appearance of a one way street from where I sit?