Stop Buying Your Jobs!!

[Doc]

What are you people? STUPID? Still out there handing over cash to maggot companies for your job? WHY? We all know who they are....STOP IT!! Have some pride people!

As an aside. I would never consider hiring a guy who had actually bought a job in the past. I would like to spend the day flying with someone with at least half a brain. And some pride.

[Valcore]

You said it brother!

[desksgo]

Doc, your message may not have fallen upon deaf ears. Many questions are being asked during Voyageur's latest hiring stint and a lot of people are turning them down (according to my very reliable sources).

Apparently when queried about the bond, they just say "that's just an industry standard"...Well the industry standard is also for you to jam it sideways. Time to raise the bar, my friends.

[JTFA]

I am with you DOC!

If now, that there is a need for pilot, the newbies pay to skip to the top. As it IS and HAD happened in Europe.
What is going to happen when there is not such a demand!

For the not so smart people. If they still sticking it up... when they need you, how far are they gonna stick it to you when they can replace you easy?

The funniest thing is that I probably end up in jail years from now when somebody complain about how bad things are in aviation and I will know that it is because of him buying a job and I give him a bitch slap.

I always ask how people get their TR and I try not to hire people who pay for work.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

You can not compare the training the people get in Europe for direct entry into the jets to the training Canadian pilots get.

And it is very expensive, about 225,000 Euro from start to finish.

[JTFA]

Excuse me!
But right now and for the past few years, a person with an ATPL written and 10-30KEUR to pay for a TR is IN the airlines in Europe! (and that is the standard in Europe ATPL MCC and TR if you don't they do not care how many hours you have or in what the only thing the care is EUR)

I am not talking about MCL (multi crew license) or cadet schemes.

And that is what is starting to happen now in CAN.

I always thought that the work the docks thing in CAN was BS but something in the middle I will agree. If I am a pilot why do I have to be your personal slave before I can fly, if you need a personal slave hire one! But I do not agree with the newbies buying a TR so the companies get use to it specially now..... read my previous post.

[bandaid]

I got to say, if you guys/gals are finally standing up to the employers, good for you!!!!
It's only by sticking together that you are going to see change and if you can all stick together then two thumbs up from me.

[Wacko]

I always ask how people get their TR and I try not to hire people who pay for work.

It’s interesting how everyone is jumping on the newbs about buying their PPC’s. This guy is scr3wing the industry, that guy is doing this. But you know what? In a year, two maybe three… that same guy is going to have a way better job than a guy grinding it out. Why? Because of “YOU”… the guys with all the experience and in hiring positions will hire him. At the end of the day, your company will want X amount of hours, and a PPC.

I’m happy to see that Doc won’t hire guys like the mentioned above but saying “I try” gives me the impression that “You eventually will”.

I agree that guys with low hours need to stand up but I also feel that the guys doing the hiring need to step up and make buying PPC’s so despicable you might as well not put those companies/hours/TR on your resume.

… don’t mean to single you out JTFA. Friends?

[canpilot]

What are you guys considering " buying a job" ? Are we specifically talking about the whole PPC thing?

What about the guy/ gal who wants to fly floats up north?? Is the person who goes and get a lease (and pays for it on their own)on a supercub or luscombe on floats, spilts the time between a few buddies, then sells the aircraft (having built up enough time) seen as " buying a job"?

[JTFA]

WACO! You are right I said try because my choices are limited I AM in China!
If I have a choice I will not, and I have not so far!

Canpilot! You are right the million dollar question! where do you draw the line. My thought is if you need a SES license, well you need to get it, the time for insurance.... It will seem ok by me ( some other dude with less money, he will say is unfair.... and he is right...but when live was....)

It is a tricky line I know!

What I am trying to say is that if pilot (people) let the companies run what the minimums are at the end they could ask you to chip in for the gas too (hell why not ask him (the pilot) if he paid for anything we ask him for...)
And give you guys the heads up on how is going down the tubes in Europe if anyone does not know.

It could happen that the Airline job will be the worst paid soon also, and the money will go Comercial ticket then Airline then corporate then Instructing. And it is not a bad idea since I believe that is how it should be. Besides the airline customers want the cheapest ticket right? and the corporate has the money to pay for the skill. May be this will solve the WHOLE industry problem........................... at the end is offer and demand

sorry I am rumbling.

[PopnChipper]

I recently got passed up for promotion within the company I work for. They just went through the list of people who work for the company, from the person who'd been there the longest to the newest hire until somebody would pay upfront for the training. There will always be somebody with less experience ready and waiting to snap up your job and do it for less. Oh, sure, we can get together and say "We won't pay" but some little prick is sitting at home right now, reading these forms thinking, "hot damn, there is my next job"

[The Other Kind]

They just went through the list of people who work for the company, from the person who'd been there the longest to the newest hire until somebody would pay upfront for the training.

I suggest that you and your coworkers take the little puke out behind the hanger and beat the hell out of him - daily.

Make it so miserable for him to work there that he has no choice but to quit, thereby surrendering the money he paid up front.

[Wacko]

Make it so miserable for him to work there that he has no choice but to quit, thereby surrendering the money he paid up front.

I agree The Other Kind. It should be everyone uniting to something like that. A low time pilot will only be as good as the people above him. If those people don’t socialize and minimize contact it will make for a lesson learned and then some! Again, I’m going back to my previous statement. It is ALL pilots responsibility to make $h!t like that unacceptable. Until everyone is on the same page, nothing will change….

This topic is starting to feel like…. So what kind of headset should I get?

[Krashman]

I think we've beaten this to death...

[atpilot]

I don't agree with paying for your training but signing an agreement that you are willing to commit x number of years is not so bad either. If the company is willing to invest in you then we can invest in them. Unfortunately there are companies out there that will take a pilot's good intentions and turn it to their advantage. If you commit and the company treats you like crap then it's "see ya". On the other side of this topic, there will always be someone who is willing to pay for their training. Look at all the money Jetsgo took from their new hires even as they were planning to shut down the operations.

[Gards]

Ok, I want to try and look at this from both the potential pilot and the employers side of things.

For pilots, obviously, you do not and should not have to pay for a job. However you want to look at it and discuss it, we have shot ourselves in the foot. It is a cut throat industry whether you want to believe it or not. You get advice and verbal dhiarea from both sides that say; "look out for number one, no one will help you get ahead in this industry" and also the guys that say; "Unite, all for one and one for all" "if we all stick together........blah blah". Its a double edged sword for some and for others its black and white in which way you think about the industry from a pilots perspective. Does anyone agree with this analogy?

Does this make sense? In a ranking of best case scenarios for a pilot:

1.) hired with no bond, decent salary, good conditions (Air Tindi, Conair, etc.)

2.) signing an agreement where if you were to leave before an agreed amount of time you owe X amount of training costs. (Kenn Borek Air, etc.)

3.) providing an agreed amount of funds put into trust (under your name) for an agreed amount of time, taking into account a legal binding document that protects your funds should said company go tits up (Voyageur, CALM Air perhaps?, etc.)

4.) paying for the training outright to secure the job and not receiving a dime back within an agreed amount of time (Regency, etc.)

For Employers, obviously, you should have to pay for and provide the appropriate training for a new employee. It is the cost of doing buisness, is it not? However, buisness decisions are sometimes made in certain market situations. God bless the owners that believe in running a sound business based on a mixture of sound buisness decisions with a mix of treating their employees with respect and just salaries. But you also have the owners that only think about the bottom line and profit margins. Now in your honest opinion what is the percentage of each of these two types of owners do we have in the aviation industry that deal with hiring pilots? Now with the decent operations how much of a turnover is their going to be if you are treated well? Not as high as the company where guys go to get their experience and leave.

Does this make sense? In a ranking of best case scenarios for the owners buisness (ie. cost structure):

1.) A pilot paying for the training outright to secure the job and not giving him a dime back within an agreed amount of time (Regency, etc.)

2.) Having the new pilot provide an agreed amount of funds put into trust (under the new pilots name) for an agreed amount of time, taking into account a legal binding document that protects his/her funds should said company go tits up (Voyageur, CALM Air perhaps?, etc.)

3.) signing an agreement with a new pilot where if he/she were to leave before an agreed amount of time he owes the company X amount of training costs. (Kenn Borek Air, etc.)

4.) hire a new pilot with no bond, give him a decent salary, and good conditions (Air Tindi, Conair, etc.)

I realize everyone will have differnt thoughts as to how rankings should go. That is what I think we are battling against. Everyone having such different thoughts and values. Another thing that will affect things is supply and demand. Of course if you are having trouble finding pilots then sooner or later you will need to increase wages or provide better conditions. When you do this is going to be up for debate. Obviously if you wait to long then negative things happen. Vice versa, if you have an excess supply of qualified drivers then how much above average do you pay?

So, I was extremely bored today and and not working so I wanted to play devils advocate on this touchy subject. Some posters on here seem to have time to make a dozen posts or more every day and are often the ones complaining about the situation of our industry. No doubt some arm chair pilot is going to blast me and maybe some will agree with me. But we have so many different people with different trains of thought. Will there ever be a solution to hte problems of our industry?

Some are very passionate about this topic of jobs, bonds, and paying for ppc's. I respect this, but wonder if they all take their motivation outside this forum. It is impossible to know about everything that goes on but I have yet to hear of anything other then the failed attempt at a form of association or perhaps union that was in the process of forming about a year ago on this website.

End of boredom........beer time!

[Pie Lot]

What are you people? STUPID? Still out there handing over cash to maggot companies for your job? WHY? We all know who they are....STOP IT!! Have some pride people!

Doc:

WTF!!????

What is with you man. Everyone knows how you feel about bonds. We all know how you feel about Voyageur.

You take every opportunity given to you (and as a moderator I would expect a little more class to be honest), to hijack every thread about employment with a company that bonds. Guys ask about pay, conditions, schedule etc. And lo and behold, along comes DOC. Doc who rants like a child, about bonds, scum, twats, stupid, maggott's etc. Next thing you know the entire purpose of the original post is gone due to; (you guessed it) Doc the MODERATOR. Grow up man!

And now when there is a couple of days gone buy without a VAL or like company post, you have to start a post ranting about bonds and guys that take those jobs again. Seriously sounds like you have some serious issues (and I'm not talking about bonds).

Is this just your idea of enjoyment, and a way to pass time. I would expect more from a forum moderator on a site that is supposed to be for professionals.

As far as the bonds, let it be know by all pilots now and forever that DOC the MODERATOR hates training bonds. He thinks you are all SCUM, TWATS, and other such professional terms. Furthermore, let it be known that since I have taken the time to write this, it is a form of official recognition of your opinion as it is now reposted by an independent source. Therefore from this point forward, it will no longer be necessary for DOC the MODERATOR to repost this opinion for the umpteenth time like a spoiled brat that has not been heard to his liking.

[Benwa]

You take every opportunity given to you... to hijack every thread about employment with a company that bonds.

He started the thread. I think you're hijacking this one with your personal attacks!

[Justwannafly]

You take every opportunity given to you... to hijack every thread about employment with a company that bonds.

He started the thread. I think you're hijacking this one with your personal attacks!

Doc the Moderator is a respected member of this forum. His views, I'm sure were known b4 he was given the job as Moderator. Just because your a moderator doesn't mean that you can't have any views of your own.....& I also agree that your kinda hijacking this thread by making it personal against another forum member

[Vonhugendong]

This sure is a touchy subject. I would have to say though that in the end there are as many greasy pilots as there are greasy operators. This is a unique industry that needs to have a unique set of rules when it comes to hiring. The majority of pilots are looking to get on bigger machines, with better pay. Say I run a small charter company with Navajos, maybe a King Air. If I were to hire and train each and every pilot that walked through the door, I would be out of business. Why, because the second most pilot get a sniff of heavier metal they run for the door, remember I said most pilots.

Most of these places are just glorified training schools. They are like the universities of flight training. Universities have labs and do research and make money using student ideas and manpower. Everybody knows the student is going to move on; they are using the place to get experience and training that will make them desirable for a proper employer. Most people don’t want to live in kuujapiknowwhersvillejuakkipangpikic, what if every operator in such places as kuujapiknowwhersvillejuakkipangpikic just let every pilot that needed some turbine time come up, get it, and go back to civilization.

[Benwa]

...Universities have labs and do research and make money using student ideas and manpower.

But then the customer knows what he is getting. Also, the student is often under supervision.

We are putting low timers under very REAL IMC wx in more than often crappy airframes. I think it deserves a fair pay.

If you would go out of business operating a couple 'hos and a KingAir... then so be it. If your business model cannot afford training your crew, you either don't charge enough or started a business without thinking it through.

[Justwannafly]

...Universities have labs and do research and make money using student ideas and manpower.

But then the customer knows what he is getting. Also, the student is often under supervision.

We are putting low timers under very REAL IMC wx in more than often crappy airframes. I think it deserves a fair pay.

If you would go out of business operating a couple 'hos and a KingAir... then so be it. If your business model cannot afford training your crew, you either don't charge enough or started a business without thinking it through.

The problem is that right across the apron from you, your competition is taking all of your customers by charging less for their service, & making up for it by using crapy equipment & pilots who are ok with paying to work. Look at Regency...How many companies were unable to compete with their walmart prices? Its only now that they have left YVR that reputible companies are able to make a go of it in that market.

[Vonhugendong]

Benwa, I think you may have missed my point.

I agree that pilots need to be paid fairly, I just think it is naïve to think that bonds and paying for jobs was a scheme thought up solely by operators. Pilots use small companies as stepping stones to go on to bigger and better things. When companies only operate small equipment there is not much room for career progression. In a heavily regulated industry such as this one there are training fees that are very expensive. I am not defending the operators, just saying that the small companies that give us the experience we need to get better jobs need to be kept in mind, not ones like Keystone mind you.

Pilots deserve to be paid, operators deserve the right to not to have to pay to train new crews every five months because you have your experience and have moved on to greener pastures.

[Pie Lot]

He started the thread. I think you're hijacking this one with your personal attacks!

Doc the Moderator is a respected member of this forum. His views, I'm sure were known b4 he was given the job as Moderator. Just because your a moderator doesn't mean that you can't have any views of your own.....& I also agree that your kinda hijacking this thread by making it personal against another forum member[/quote]

Of course you can have your own views. But a moderator should be held to a higher standard on a forum he is moderating, than any other joe pilot poster.

If I am a pilot considering a job at VAL, or Keystone, or The Bear, or Calm Air, or numerous other companies; and I start a topic on said Company, asking things about: What their different bases are like. Or what the pay is like, upgrade time, people are like to work with, equipment maintenance etc. I would like honest answers about these issues that I have posted about from people that post responses. I don't need another person (a moderator no less), hijacking the thread for the hundredth time (see VAL, Keystone etc, numerous different topics about said companies), and starting his childish rant about bonds. And using such profound terms towards fellow pilots and employers such as: Twat, maggot companies, Stupid etc to name a few. Then the original topic and it's legitimate questions get lost in the endless, tirade over bonds that have been beat to death on here. And which was never an original question.

It is simple, if you are considering working for a company with a bond, then it is your responsbility to consider everything pertinent before signing. If you are not interested in moving on in your career, then stay in Kenora. That is your option too. But for the guy looking at trying to advance his career, when he posts legitimate questions on AvCanada about a company, let other people try and answer them before you go off on a childish tirade. This way Doc and the rest of you that dont like bonds, can stay where you are bond free, and the guy that wants to go to VAL etc, can get his answers to help him make his decision. Trust me, I am sure he is aware of the bond at the time of the interview without Doc's rant reminding him.

And if I hijacked Doc's original post....oh well.....Doc and the rest of you that have commented don't seem to mind the concept of other threads being hijacked! And I'm not a moderator, just a fellow pilot that has decided to take the time to express his opinion too.

[Puddle Jumper]

So when a pilot buys an instructor rating, they're NOT buying a job??? Has anyone heard of a flight school employing a pilot without an instructor rating and then paying for the pilot's rating? Is there a difference between paying for an Instructor rating and paying a PPC to get a job?