Ontario Restricting CPL instruction

fadavid · Post by **fadavid** » Wed May 23, 2007 7:32 am

saucer_driver wrote:Can anyone attend that meeting in brampton, I would like to go.....or do you have to own a FTU?

I have two invitations. You are welcome to attend as my guest.

odpilot · Post by **odpilot** » Thu May 24, 2007 3:44 pm

In a meeting in OW a week ago it was asked of two young ladies of the oOnt. Gov. what about freelance instructors they loked across the room and said they would have a talk to Jim Dow he"s fed there prov. this is totally wrong

odpilot · Post by **odpilot** » Thu May 31, 2007 12:53 pm

Hi clunckdriver'

I heard that the ont. Gov want a 4,000,000 reserve for the private flight training org is theat true and how did they come up with that amount

corporate joe · Post by **corporate joe** » Sat Jun 09, 2007 3:48 pm

1) My admiration for those involved in this battle, may you succeed.

2) Politicians are like diapers. They need to be changed regularly and for the same reason.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Sun Jun 10, 2007 11:52 am

Clunk and all the rest of you people who own flight schools I can feel your frustration, however these parasites at TC and their cohorts in ATAC will in the end destroy your business and your sanity.

for the short term I think the only solution is total civil disobedience, NOBODY sign up

On the surface this sounds like the only solution, however they have the power of government behind them and in the end you will lose everything....

There is no easy answer as I found out, but I would rather have my self worth and no business than get in bed with these despicable creatures.

Remember if you defy them they will pick you off one by one and you do not have any recourse under law to stop them.

Here is my answer.....

...bite the bullet right now and close all your schools at once in protest, advise all your students what you are doing and why and have them go to the news media.

To get rid of rats you have to shine a bright light on them, works exactly the same with these creatures.

Oh, by the way Jim Dow if you don't like my attitude get stuffed.

. .
AA38841

Post by **avcanada** » Sun Jun 10, 2007 2:34 pm

Clunckdriver you have my support.

Would you be interested in sending out a letter to the entire membership of AvCanada explaining the issues to drum up some additional support?

Regards,

Joe

Piper2000 · Post by **Piper2000** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 1:58 pm

MCA wrote: sorry to piss a lot of you, but i agree with this 100%. in fact, only colleges should be able to issue CPL. then, you wouldn't be fighting with clowns who failed their flight tests 5 times for a 5$/hour job in St-middle-of-nowhere... 'cause those clowns wouldn't be accepted in such colleges...

to be a surgeon, you need to work your ass off and pass all the tests that go along with your 5 year+ degree...

to be a pilot, you just need to pay...

in both cases, you have a great potential to kill people.

You couldn't be any more wrong. You have to pay to become a pilot? So if I'm getting you right, only those who are filthy rich should become pilots? If it wasn't for the fact that smaller schools existed, I would never have become a pilot.

I fly out of Ottawa, so if I didn't get to go to the FTU that I go to now, I would be stuck going to Alqonquin college (and have the money to leave home yet), they would have taken all my money (if I could even come up with it), and then they would have failed the entire program, probably before getting any flight hours. So I would be stuck broke, with no flying experience, and my dreams crushed.

And yes, there are clowns, but I've seen tons of clowns flying heavies who are out of these colleges, and the reason is because their rich mommies and daddies can pay their way through these colleges. Money does NOT make you a good pilot. Experience, hard work, and dedication does, and this law would destroy that.

It is up to each individual pilot to find the best school/FTU for them, and it is up to each company/business to hire pilots that they believe are the best suited. Getting the government to dictate who can teach new pilots by instituting harsh fees will only shut down good schools, and ruin the industry.

dirtpoorflyr · Post by **dirtpoorflyr** » Wed Jun 20, 2007 3:42 pm

Wow , Behind the eight ball Again!!!...I just nicely renewed my class 4....Hoping to get that entry level job that as a pilot we all need. I'm a product of a smaller flight school....pay as you go....I consider myself a professional for my level and have earned every bit. My experience with my school was 100% positive. I have made many friends, contacts, and hopefully impressions ( on my own students and peers ).......But to look at the big picture.......This is Catastrophic for my future as well as for many other pilots. I have already heard of the possibility of schools closing in my job search...My questions are , How will we ( low timers )...build the experience and hours required to advance ? Make professional contacts in amongst our peers ? What is the future hold for us now ?.......I can see a Canada full of pilots from other countries filling our skies.....as our own government erodes the opportunities away from the youth of our land......Post secondary education is a big industry in this province and big industry backs politicians ....... They won't bite the hand that feeds them......Could we ?....Someone needs to be fiscally responsible for the money we have spent to become instructors if the Government legislates us out of a job........Where do I Sign??

4hrstovegas · Post by **4hrstovegas** » Sun Jun 24, 2007 10:33 am

This sounds catastrophic for small FTUs, and for those who have spent a lifetime working and battling to keep themselves going through the past years, I have genuine pity.

On the other side of the coin, and don't blast me for this, won't limiting the number of CPLs issued in Canada lead to better working conditions for commercial pilots here? Again, to those FTUs who are at risk of closure, this must be really tough. But to those who are moaning about an end to instructor jobs, etc: try leaving the nest. There are still lots of jobs out there right now. The big picture is that fewer pilots means higher pay, better working conditions, quicker upgrades, etc. 90% of the posts in this forum are about crappy pay and quality of life, ridiculous hour requirements compared to other countries, and "whores" who will work for next to nothing to stay airborne. Unless you're an FTU, I can't see how fewer CPLs is a bad thing for the state of the industry as it stands. Diamonds are only worth something because they are made scarce, and somebody is willing to pay for them.

Kelowna Pilot · Post by **Kelowna Pilot** » Sun Jun 24, 2007 7:38 pm

This sounds catastrophic for small FTUs, and for those who have spent a lifetime working and battling to keep themselves going through the past years, I have genuine pity.

On the other side of the coin, and don't blast me for this, won't limiting the number of CPLs issued in Canada lead to better working conditions for commercial pilots here? Again, to those FTUs who are at risk of closure, this must be really tough. But to those who are moaning about an end to instructor jobs, etc: try leaving the nest. There are still lots of jobs out there right now. The big picture is that fewer pilots means higher pay, better working conditions, quicker upgrades, etc. 90% of the posts in this forum are about crappy pay and quality of life, ridiculous hour requirements compared to other countries, and "whores" who will work for next to nothing to stay airborne. Unless you're an FTU, I can't see how fewer CPLs is a bad thing for the state of the industry as it stands. Diamonds are only worth something because they are made scarce, and somebody is willing to pay for them.

Excellent point.

While I think we're seeing the beginning of the end of GA in Canada (which I don't like), the positive thing that will come out of this is that we will have fewer CPLs on the street.

Pilot wages and working conditions reflect supply and demand. Kill the supply by 50 percent and things could really improve.

This is of course not good news for the Perimeters of aviation who rely on an abundance of desperate CPLs for their minimum wage ramp labor force... or the CMA's who can get pilots to work for what is it now, $24,000 grand a year...

Kelowna Pilot · Post by **Kelowna Pilot** » Sun Jun 24, 2007 8:12 pm

I can see a Canada full of pilots from other countries filling our skies.....

As they say, when all else fails, resort to fear-mongering...

4hrstovegas · Post by **4hrstovegas** » Mon Jun 25, 2007 9:13 am

With all due respect, please give me a break. Would having a flight school in Terrace Bay have helped out the situation in Thunder Bay? Please don't tell me a flight school would have kept that field open! OK, so the kid from small town Canada has to leave home to go to flight school. Maybe. You talk about the big picture; should their considerations be held above the rest of the industry?? Why don't we start opening med schools and law schools just for smaller communities, too? Your idea of banding together pilots to create a unified voice is great. But unfortunately, because anybody with a heartbeat and some money can get a CPL right now, what do you think will happen to those of us who walk away from our jobs, or reject offers that are not what we expect. Narrow view? I don't think so.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Mon Jun 25, 2007 9:52 am

4hrs, are you saying that closing down small mom and pop schools is a good thing?

4hrstovegas · Post by **4hrstovegas** » Mon Jun 25, 2007 10:10 am

Certainly not, Cat, and I don't think anybody is saying that. But I DO strongly agree that restricting the number of CPLs issued in Canada is a good thing. If we were pumping out doctors they way we do CPLs, they'd probably be paid a lot less.

But getting back to this legislation: does this mean an end to all mom and pops, or just to training towards the CPL at these schools? Because correct me if I'm wrong, but there are 35 hours (if memory serves) of dual training towards the CPL. What's to stop a student from completing their PPL, multi, MIFR, and night ratings, building the required time at a flight school of their choice, and then completing the balance of their dual hour requirement somewhere else? How many hours would have to be completed somewhere else, and would this mean an end to ALL mom and pops?

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Mon Jun 25, 2007 10:26 am

What's to stop a student from completing their PPL, multi, MIFR, and night ratings, building the required time at a flight school of their choice, and then completing the balance of their dual hour requirement somewhere else?

Nothing would stop them from doing that.

The question that I am asking is why not let them finish where they started?

I agree that there are to many commercial pilots competing for to few jobs, so why not up the requirements to be a commercial pilot?

Would you not agree that the skills level requirements now are rather low?

Kelowna Pilot · Post by **Kelowna Pilot** » Mon Jun 25, 2007 10:30 am

The decline of GA is bad thing, agreed, and I've heard the FAA may be privatized (maybe) in the future so GA may be out in the US, too, but:

{1} The ONLY thing which will improve initial working conditions is for the industry to get organised and form an organisation to represent the interests of pilots{lawyers, doctors, tradesmen/women have done this for years}

Sorry, but if pilots organized the way real self-regulating professions do, it would mean limiting the number of people licensed to practice in the profession.

So cutting down the pilot supply would happen either way.

it will result in the kid from small town Canada losing the chance to become a pilot

Is it really that difficult to move to a big city?

So I say to those of you of the "ME ME ME " generation, try to see the big picture here, stand back a bit and try to rememember what this nation is all about, for if you continue to view life just from your own selfish point of view then more than flight training is going to be in deep trouble in Canada.

Sorry, but 99.9 percent of all flying schools are built on the selfish desire to turn a profit. You may be an exception, but I have a feeling the average flying school is more concerned about trying to stay afloat financially than trying to promote some romantic view of "what the nation is all about" (whatever that means).

I can assure you most flying schools are very much "ME ME ME".

Aviation right now is undergoing a significant paradigm shift.

Times change and often people get displaced and are forced to move into new areas.

It happens all the time in every industry.

4hrstovegas · Post by **4hrstovegas** » Mon Jun 25, 2007 11:45 am

The question that I am asking is why not let them finish where they started?

That would be ideal. But in most careers, to carry on to a professional standard, you may need to switch schools to do so. MD from a BSC(H), LLB from BA(H), etc. What I'm trying to say is that I don't think it would be the end to all mom and pops, although I acknowledge there would be some loss in terms of the CPL dual instruction.

Upping the requirements to get a CPL is a great idea, as well. But with the flight test criteria still so subjectively evaluated, this would be harder to accomplish than funnelling the crowd from the outset.

As for this whole ME ME ME suggestion, clunck, one can stand on a soapbox and rant about the little guy in rural Canada being the victim, but let's face it, if you want to become a pilot, you had better get used to leaving home to do it. Who's opportunity is being restricted? How? Because somebody might have to leave home for a few hours of dual training? Nobody is talking about revoking your right to teach, just limiting certain flight schools from pumping out CPLs for profit. I'm certainly not suggesting that your's is one of them, but I have seen a lot of people being pushed through commercial programs simply to keep the doors open. If closing some of them helps the industry, and in turn helps raise our standard of living, then ABSOLUTELY "let the market and competition rule". The only ME ME ME attitude is hoping that things can continue the way they are going and that some magic wand will make things better without some sort of sacrifice. And I think commercial pilots in Canada have served their tours of duty up to now.

Spokes · Post by **Spokes** » Mon Jun 25, 2007 7:29 pm

Hey 4hrstovegas, have you actually read this thread all the way through. We are talking about pointless regulation removing peoplse livelyhood.

Province sets up big flight colleges. These schools rip off people so government, instead of cleaning up there own mess introduce huge fees that force small flight schools to close. owners loose business, instructors loose jobs, pilot students must go to big flight college to get ripped off. Where is the good in that?

4hrstovegas · Post by **4hrstovegas** » Mon Jun 25, 2007 10:16 pm

[edited due to excessive sarcasm]

dirtpoorflyr · Post by **dirtpoorflyr** » Tue Jun 26, 2007 4:42 am

Well there certainly seems to be a touch of selfishness amongst us. To be so short sighted to think supply and demand will improve the wage and living conditions surprises me. Doctors in Ontario are in shortage....wages are capped, and the government is continuously looking for recruits elsewhere. Doesn't seem to work for me! Don't forget we are talking about one province here; for now I'm sure, the rest of the flight schools in the country will continue to produce pilots . I'm Curious is there any of the 3 aviation colleges in Ontario offer advanced standing for pilots that have done the balance elsewhere? What we need to see is growth in aviation. More opportunities for more pilots is the answer. The youth need opportunities as well regardless of their financial background. I want my children to have all options open to them. If it wasn't for Mom and Pop flight schools that have given many of us these opportunities, I wonder how many of us would be flying today? I know I wouldn't. To them and all they have provided to us and the GA community, much is owed. As far as the city!...I perfer to live where the people are real.

4hrstovegas · Post by **4hrstovegas** » Tue Jun 26, 2007 10:13 am

To be so short sighted to think supply and demand will improve the wage and living conditions surprises me

How is this short sighted? I only have a minor in Eco, but it seems clear to me (granted, it's from the Stone Ages

). And who is being selfish when it is suggested that we shouldn't restrict CPLs because some people prefer it in the country? Each side of this argument has their own reasons for taking a side; I think we should pause before using the word "selfish" here. I'm pretty sure that more pilots would benefit than FTUs that would suffer. How is this unilaterally self-centred? I've already expressed my sympathy for the businesses that would suffer, but something has to change.

As for the economics of it: on a basic level, yes, it's supply and demand, and it's indisputable. Are there other ramifications? Yes. But it would be better than the system of mass producing CPLs that we have now. And if our salaries were capped at an MDs level, I think I could live with that. Right now the floor cleaners at hospitals make more than many pilots.

is there any of the 3 aviation colleges in Ontario offer advanced standing for pilots that have done the balance elsewhere

I'm not sure, but as I understand it, the legislation is not saying you have to be a College student to get a CPL, but that you have to attend a College-accredited school to get a CPL. That could mean finishing your licence at any flight school that holds that status.

The youth need opportunities as well regardless of their financial background

I'm not sure when flight schools became cheap for ANYBODY, ANYWHERE. But again, as in previous posts, you don't have to go to school for 3 or 4 years: you would likely have to complete a couple dozen dual hours somewhere else. I don't think anybody will be robbed of their identity by going somewhere else for a few weeks or weekends.

I want my children to have all options open to them

Me, too. And if I can support legislation that restricts a flood of people in my industry so that their quality of life is better, I will.

Kelowna Pilot · Post by **Kelowna Pilot** » Tue Jun 26, 2007 10:20 am

Well there certainly seems to be a touch of selfishness amongst us.

Agreed, it's selfish to think pilots should make more than fast-food workers.

To be so short sighted to think supply and demand will improve the wage and living conditions surprises me. Doctors in Ontario are in shortage....wages are capped, and the government is continuously looking for recruits elsewhere.

Doctors salaries last I heard were capped in Ontario at a little over $450,000 per year.

It would take the average CMA FO almost 19 years to make what a doctor who reaches the cap makes in one.

Don't forget we are talking about one province here; for now I'm sure, the rest of the flight schools in the country will continue to produce pilots .

Don't get your hopes up. Ontario is probably the test case, the rest of the provinces will likely follow.

The youth need opportunities as well regardless of their financial background.

Agreed, but the youth of northern canada can go work in Fort McMurry for a year or two... they'd make more than enough money there to pay for pilot training.

If it wasn't for Mom and Pop flight schools that have given many of us these opportunities, I wonder how many of us would be flying today?

There is more to life than flying. There are bills, mortgages, car insurance and a million other expenses. If it wasn't for the Mom and Pop flying schools there would probably be less pilots and better working conditions and wages.

I perfer to live where the people are real.

oldncold · Post by **oldncold** » Tue Jul 03, 2007 4:37 pm

only thing i know is fact every time we abdicate our responsibility
to government cronyizm ,neoptizm bureaucracy and huge
overblown cost structure so follow.

when i retire with a bizziion hours i going to go back to the grassroots
and become a certifed instrutor ( I never had that rating ) though have done several checkouts insurance signoffs and company training.

I will pass on the things that will keep some young whipersnaper out of the rhubarb or mountain face. it will be done at some small airport
where after a training flight. a debrief will be no charge over a sandwich
and a soda the student will know that his /her instructor has a bizzion actual flight hours in the same enviroment they are aspiring .

That, instructor is genuinely interested in seeing that student and quality of product. Not another hour in the log to get the multi pic job and get out of there fast.. it will be a mom and pop place So gov't hands off!

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Tue Jul 03, 2007 4:41 pm

when i retire with a bizziion hours i going to go back to the grassroots
and become a certifed instrutor ( I never had that rating

A certified instructor is the last thing you want to be if you wish to teach young pilots how to fly.....

......to stay away from having to do it TC's way instruct without going the certified route....

...that is what I do.

Pilot_adam · Post by **Pilot_adam** » Mon Jul 09, 2007 12:07 am

Ok, I am sorry I could not keep up with all the technicalities...
But this should shed some light

http://www.edu.gov.on.ca/eng/general/flightTraining.pdf

Cheers
Adam

Ontario Restricting CPL instruction

Re: Ontario Restricting CPL instruction

cpl