Class 2 Aerobatic Instructor
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Class 2 Aerobatic Instructor
Was wondering if anybody could direct me to a Class 1 Aerobatic Instructor in the Lower Mainland. What advice would anybody have for somebody with about 5 hours aerobatic training to become an aerobatic instructor. I currently have an instructor rating and i understand the regs say This allows me to do the course in 5 hours as long as i can pass the practical exam. Does anybody have any knowledge in this area?
GF.
I did an hour with David Gagliardi in the Chipmunk at Victoria to get signed off for the class 2 aerobatic instructor rating.
But I had many many hours flying aerobatics and teaching aerobatics in a country that does not have so many regulations and where people are not afraid to operate aerobatic aeroplanes.
In my opinion 5 hours of aerobatics plus a further five hours aerobatic instructor instruction is not enough for you to go out and profess to teach aerobatics.
I could spend five hours with you teaching you how to recover from the unusual attitudes a student can put you into...
If you are afraid of a flick/snap roll in the vertical after which everything stops then don't go there...
There's only one person I know of in the lower mainland who might give you instruction and that is Donn Richardson.
He is retired from TC.
I taught someone how to instruct in aerobatics recently. I was caught in a catch 22 situation.
The six hours I did with him was not enough for him to be safe teaching, but I hoped the unusual attitude recoveries I did with him would keep him safer than if I had not instructed him at all.
Even so, the last time I saw the aeroplane we did it in, I had to reset the electronic G meter again as he'd done 6.3G in it for the second time...
Aerobatics is not like a night rating, you go do your five landings and away you go again... It must be practiced and practiced.
Like the IR if you lapse in your practice, you are better to do some dual.
Me, I haven't lapsed
You'll see me around sometimes in the Decathlon upside down over Glen Valley when there's few around.
But I had many many hours flying aerobatics and teaching aerobatics in a country that does not have so many regulations and where people are not afraid to operate aerobatic aeroplanes.
In my opinion 5 hours of aerobatics plus a further five hours aerobatic instructor instruction is not enough for you to go out and profess to teach aerobatics.
I could spend five hours with you teaching you how to recover from the unusual attitudes a student can put you into...
If you are afraid of a flick/snap roll in the vertical after which everything stops then don't go there...
There's only one person I know of in the lower mainland who might give you instruction and that is Donn Richardson.
He is retired from TC.
I taught someone how to instruct in aerobatics recently. I was caught in a catch 22 situation.
The six hours I did with him was not enough for him to be safe teaching, but I hoped the unusual attitude recoveries I did with him would keep him safer than if I had not instructed him at all.
Even so, the last time I saw the aeroplane we did it in, I had to reset the electronic G meter again as he'd done 6.3G in it for the second time...
Aerobatics is not like a night rating, you go do your five landings and away you go again... It must be practiced and practiced.
Like the IR if you lapse in your practice, you are better to do some dual.
Me, I haven't lapsed
You'll see me around sometimes in the Decathlon upside down over Glen Valley when there's few around.
As MichaelP says, regardless of what the paper requirements are, it would be a really good idea to get some more solo aerobatic experience before you begin teaching it.
I might humbly suggest that one way to get some more solo aerobatic experience is to enter some aerobatic contests - I know there is an active chapter in BC, with some really good people out there. Flying aerobatic contests will require you to:
1) perform all the rudimentary maneuvers
2) teach you precision in your maneuvers (eg 90 and 45 uplines and downlines, centered rolls, round loops, entry and exit airspeed and altitude,
3) and to deal with the wind (x-axis, y-axis)
When you are comfortable flying this:
http://members.iac.org/knowns/knowns200 ... n_2007.pdf
or this
http://members.iac.org/knowns/knowns200 ... n_2007.pdf
or preferably this:
http://members.iac.org/knowns/knowns200 ... n_2007.pdf
then you're ready to start giving aerobatic instruction, IMHO.
I might humbly suggest that one way to get some more solo aerobatic experience is to enter some aerobatic contests - I know there is an active chapter in BC, with some really good people out there. Flying aerobatic contests will require you to:
1) perform all the rudimentary maneuvers
2) teach you precision in your maneuvers (eg 90 and 45 uplines and downlines, centered rolls, round loops, entry and exit airspeed and altitude,
3) and to deal with the wind (x-axis, y-axis)
When you are comfortable flying this:
http://members.iac.org/knowns/knowns200 ... n_2007.pdf
or this
http://members.iac.org/knowns/knowns200 ... n_2007.pdf
or preferably this:
http://members.iac.org/knowns/knowns200 ... n_2007.pdf
then you're ready to start giving aerobatic instruction, IMHO.
Thanks a lot for your help Hedley. When i was becoming an Instructor, my Class 1 urged me to consider flight training as more than just stop over on my way to the airlines. He told me that the industry can be very rewarding, and a liveable wage can actually be made at it. (I'm not in the industry for huge money, but i still need to eat and live).
Since being in the industry (which has only been for about 6 months now), i've seen a few of my fellow instructors move their way into the right seat of a jetstream or be1900. As much as i admire that they get to fly something bigger, i can't help but thinking that they are just flying in straight lines all day. I'm sure the glamour that comes along with being an airline pilot is wonderful, but there has always been a side of me that has loved grassroots flying right from the start.
I've figured that if i was to stick with flight instructing, I'd have to move up into areas which would make it more interesting. Such as this aerobatic idea. My idea is to eventually buy a Citabria or preferably a Decathlon, become proficient at aerobatics, earn my class 2 aerobatic instructor certificate, and lease the airplane out to my flight school. The way i figure it, it would be an asset to the school because the airplane is leased, and second of all, becasue as long as my airplane is there, i would be too.
With that, the problem i see with aerobatic flight schools, is as soon as an instructor becomes proficient at teaching aerobatics, he/she leaves, leaving the school with an airplane, and no aerobatic instructor. In the entire Lower Mainland B.C. the only school i see with an aerobatic instructor and plane to match is VFC (somebody correct me if i'm wrong).
My question is:
Is anybody else in the same boat as me that they like instructing and don't want to leave it?
How many elder (by elder i mean somebody who has been in it for 5-10 years) instructors are there that still love their job, and never want to see the seat of an airliner?
As far as i'm concerned, i love flying too much to give it up to an autopilot.
Since being in the industry (which has only been for about 6 months now), i've seen a few of my fellow instructors move their way into the right seat of a jetstream or be1900. As much as i admire that they get to fly something bigger, i can't help but thinking that they are just flying in straight lines all day. I'm sure the glamour that comes along with being an airline pilot is wonderful, but there has always been a side of me that has loved grassroots flying right from the start.
I've figured that if i was to stick with flight instructing, I'd have to move up into areas which would make it more interesting. Such as this aerobatic idea. My idea is to eventually buy a Citabria or preferably a Decathlon, become proficient at aerobatics, earn my class 2 aerobatic instructor certificate, and lease the airplane out to my flight school. The way i figure it, it would be an asset to the school because the airplane is leased, and second of all, becasue as long as my airplane is there, i would be too.
With that, the problem i see with aerobatic flight schools, is as soon as an instructor becomes proficient at teaching aerobatics, he/she leaves, leaving the school with an airplane, and no aerobatic instructor. In the entire Lower Mainland B.C. the only school i see with an aerobatic instructor and plane to match is VFC (somebody correct me if i'm wrong).
My question is:
Is anybody else in the same boat as me that they like instructing and don't want to leave it?
How many elder (by elder i mean somebody who has been in it for 5-10 years) instructors are there that still love their job, and never want to see the seat of an airliner?
As far as i'm concerned, i love flying too much to give it up to an autopilot.
GF.
Most people become pilots because they love flying.
However, most people stay pilots because of the money. If the money doesn't show up at some point, and you're getting older, it's time to move on.
People who are seriously nuts about flying do it for both a living and for fun. An example of this would be Gene Soucy and Skip Stewart, who fly airliners for a living, but fly airshows because they love to.
Someone tells me they want to fly, I tell them to become a doctor or a dentist, because they seem to always have the nicest airplanes at the airport. These days there are other ways to earn a truckload of money (tech, energy) but the idea is the same - earn money someplace where it's a whole lot easier to get than aviation, then piss it away on shiny toys.
Aviation is a tough place to earn money. There are plenty of other places where money comes a lot easier.
I guess I am what you would call a part-time "career" instructor - I've had the rating for 15 years now. But I don't try to instruct full time.
If I did instruct full time, I would make sure that I owned the flight school, and that we had our own AMO, and that it wasn't in Ontario.
I would encourage you to develop niche skills - don't just be another guy who goes around the circuit in a trainer. Become an IFR instructor. Become a tailwheel instructor. Floatplane instructor. Skiplane instructor. Aerobatic instructor. Glider instructor. Whatever works in your area.
Do some ferry flying. Develop you own group of well-heeled students, one or more of whom is going to buy a fancy airplane but is going to need you to fly it for them.
Stay flexible. Get qualified and experienced on everything that you can get your hands on.
However, most people stay pilots because of the money. If the money doesn't show up at some point, and you're getting older, it's time to move on.
People who are seriously nuts about flying do it for both a living and for fun. An example of this would be Gene Soucy and Skip Stewart, who fly airliners for a living, but fly airshows because they love to.
Someone tells me they want to fly, I tell them to become a doctor or a dentist, because they seem to always have the nicest airplanes at the airport. These days there are other ways to earn a truckload of money (tech, energy) but the idea is the same - earn money someplace where it's a whole lot easier to get than aviation, then piss it away on shiny toys.
Aviation is a tough place to earn money. There are plenty of other places where money comes a lot easier.
I guess I am what you would call a part-time "career" instructor - I've had the rating for 15 years now. But I don't try to instruct full time.
If I did instruct full time, I would make sure that I owned the flight school, and that we had our own AMO, and that it wasn't in Ontario.
I would encourage you to develop niche skills - don't just be another guy who goes around the circuit in a trainer. Become an IFR instructor. Become a tailwheel instructor. Floatplane instructor. Skiplane instructor. Aerobatic instructor. Glider instructor. Whatever works in your area.
Do some ferry flying. Develop you own group of well-heeled students, one or more of whom is going to buy a fancy airplane but is going to need you to fly it for them.
Stay flexible. Get qualified and experienced on everything that you can get your hands on.
Pro went ahead and bought a Citabria, and promoted aerobatic training on their website.
They had the airbatiC aeroplane and me.
But as written elsewhere, they did not spend the $75 to put aerobatics on the OC and TC got a little annoyed with them and me about this.
Flying schools in Canada are largely boring institutions devoted to putting people through their commercial licences and out the door.
Few schools take the plunge and do something different.
Pro put the Citabria on line and it became the most flown aeroplane in the fleet.
Pro engineering could not believe that this little aeroplane took less to maintain than the Cessna 152s!
It shouldn't, and it wouldn't, it should have been more labour intensive.
Except:
The standard of instructors teaching in this aeroplane was much higher, you just can't get away with less than excellent flying skills teaching in this aeroplane.
The student standard had to be higher... We had a few students who failed to progress and had to go to the Cessna 152 or 172, the rest progressed at an equal rate to their counterparts in the Cessnas.
If the Cessna instructors and their students operated to the same high standard then the maintenance of these aircraft would be a lot cheaper!
Having to service the nose leg so often is one prime example of the abuse ignorance puts on these aircraft.
My background was British where many schools and clubs are not afraid to operate something different, and aerobatic aeroplanes are not difficult to find.
I learned in Cessna 150 from old instructors who taught aviator skills...
As soon as I finished my PPL I moved to another part of England and got checked out in tailwheel aeroplanes. It was easy, the only difference between landing the Cessna 150 and landing the Cub and Condor was the footwork, keeping it straight on the runway.
If you learn to fly a Cessna properly then adapting to other types is easy.
But people are lazy here, perfection isn't encouraged, it's good enough.
I had to learn my checks, RAF style, this has kept me safe in a multitude of types.
The flying schools in GB all used checklists that were in the same order as the RAF checklists and so there's consistency wherever you go.
I learned aerobatics in the Stampe. The Tiger Moth is a dreadful device, but I could roll it with effort...
I've taught aerobatics in all kinds of aeroplanes...
The YAK 52 is brilliant, fantastic rate of roll... But I want to see you roll it like the second hand on a watch!
Yes, I've been at it for years and I've never lost the enjoyment of teaching people to fly.
Going hungry has deviated me from my path at times, and Canada has to be the poorest place I have lived in, but I enjoy flying here.
Now I'm doing something different again, buying Rotax powered aeroplanes and plastic ones too...
I'd like a 100hp Cub or something for float training, perhaps another Citabria...
I'm sorry, the fleets of 30 year old Cessnas outside do not excite me at all.
I don't want a sausage machine.
They had the airbatiC aeroplane and me.
But as written elsewhere, they did not spend the $75 to put aerobatics on the OC and TC got a little annoyed with them and me about this.
Flying schools in Canada are largely boring institutions devoted to putting people through their commercial licences and out the door.
Few schools take the plunge and do something different.
Pro put the Citabria on line and it became the most flown aeroplane in the fleet.
Pro engineering could not believe that this little aeroplane took less to maintain than the Cessna 152s!
It shouldn't, and it wouldn't, it should have been more labour intensive.
Except:
The standard of instructors teaching in this aeroplane was much higher, you just can't get away with less than excellent flying skills teaching in this aeroplane.
The student standard had to be higher... We had a few students who failed to progress and had to go to the Cessna 152 or 172, the rest progressed at an equal rate to their counterparts in the Cessnas.
If the Cessna instructors and their students operated to the same high standard then the maintenance of these aircraft would be a lot cheaper!
Having to service the nose leg so often is one prime example of the abuse ignorance puts on these aircraft.
My background was British where many schools and clubs are not afraid to operate something different, and aerobatic aeroplanes are not difficult to find.
I learned in Cessna 150 from old instructors who taught aviator skills...
As soon as I finished my PPL I moved to another part of England and got checked out in tailwheel aeroplanes. It was easy, the only difference between landing the Cessna 150 and landing the Cub and Condor was the footwork, keeping it straight on the runway.
If you learn to fly a Cessna properly then adapting to other types is easy.
But people are lazy here, perfection isn't encouraged, it's good enough.
I had to learn my checks, RAF style, this has kept me safe in a multitude of types.
The flying schools in GB all used checklists that were in the same order as the RAF checklists and so there's consistency wherever you go.
I learned aerobatics in the Stampe. The Tiger Moth is a dreadful device, but I could roll it with effort...
I've taught aerobatics in all kinds of aeroplanes...
The YAK 52 is brilliant, fantastic rate of roll... But I want to see you roll it like the second hand on a watch!
Yes, I've been at it for years and I've never lost the enjoyment of teaching people to fly.
Going hungry has deviated me from my path at times, and Canada has to be the poorest place I have lived in, but I enjoy flying here.
Now I'm doing something different again, buying Rotax powered aeroplanes and plastic ones too...
I'd like a 100hp Cub or something for float training, perhaps another Citabria...
I'm sorry, the fleets of 30 year old Cessnas outside do not excite me at all.
I don't want a sausage machine.
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Rhys Perraton
- Rank 2
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- Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2005 10:11 am
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Cat Driver
- Top Poster
- Posts: 18921
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AAhhh, just read your web site:
Nice to see someone willing to operate such a nice airplane.
With proper publicity you should do very well with it.
I would love to buy one, but unfortunately I am just to deep into some other projects to do it.
Maybe someday I will get one and if I do I will just leave it private registered so I can afford to operate it.
Anyhow I hope you do well.
. E.
Nice to see someone willing to operate such a nice airplane.
With proper publicity you should do very well with it.
I would love to buy one, but unfortunately I am just to deep into some other projects to do it.
Maybe someday I will get one and if I do I will just leave it private registered so I can afford to operate it.
Anyhow I hope you do well.
. E.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
So I had to look at the http://www.sportair.cawebsite as well...
I must have met Rhys and perhaps I should check my logbooks...
There is one inaccuracy on the website:
"The Tiger Club, of which I was a member in the 70's and 80's, has never had a nose wheel type on it's fleet "
Not true... We had both G AZYZ and G-BDSN, Wassmer WA51A Pacific and WA52 Europa.
These were plastic aeroplanes like slick Cherokees with a huge improvement in elegance.
Rollasons were the agents for these aircraft which were years ahead of their time.
The Wassmer was very similar to the Ruschmeyer R90 that came 18 years later.
I was also a member of the Tiger Club from 1977 to 1988.
I must have met Rhys and perhaps I should check my logbooks...
There is one inaccuracy on the website:
"The Tiger Club, of which I was a member in the 70's and 80's, has never had a nose wheel type on it's fleet "
Not true... We had both G AZYZ and G-BDSN, Wassmer WA51A Pacific and WA52 Europa.
These were plastic aeroplanes like slick Cherokees with a huge improvement in elegance.
Rollasons were the agents for these aircraft which were years ahead of their time.
The Wassmer was very similar to the Ruschmeyer R90 that came 18 years later.
I was also a member of the Tiger Club from 1977 to 1988.
just for thoughts
If you are thinking seriously about this aerobatic business, and feel that you can truly love teaching aerobatics for a long time, you may want to take more of an aggressive approach.
You want to be extremely good at it. You want to be different, marketable.
I have one recommendation, for few reasons.
1. To ensure that this is something you truly want to do and make the decision not only based on doing that type of flying for more than 5, 10, or even 20 hours of Aerobatics. Because you wont really get the full picture by just doing it in Canada.
2. to see if your body can take that kind of abuse, on a daily basses I would recommend that you go down south for some aerobatic flying. Not to get the rating, because you can do that here in Canada.
3. and I am not saying that we in Canada aren’t good.
But to get a different look at flying all together.
I recommend you go and Fly at “Power Aerobatics” in California. Flight school owned and operated by the “ Suean D. Tucker. “
If you don’t know the name for starters you may not love it as much as you may think you do.
But non the less. You could do an aerobatic Crash coarse for 3 weeks.
Yes it would be expensive but defiantly worth it if you are going to make a long term career out of it. It’s the experience you are going for just like what all the guys up there have said, about aerobatics. Its an investment that will save your life, and bring you the edge you may need to break into the aerobatic industry which is almost non existent in Canada.
If you are lucky enough Sean may do a flight or two with you, if you bug the Chief flight Instructor enough to convince him to let you fly with Sean.
If you are good, and have your heart in it. Sean will see that within the first 5 minutes. Sean is known to grab anyone from anywhere around the world to fly with him or for his team. He may ask you to stick around for a bit, longer and pay you a shit load of money.
So it could be a good thing.
Not to mention you get to fly different type of equipments. Pitt Special and the 300’s , and the fact that you get to fly with the world’s number one aerobatic pilot is something else.
Check it out, and maybe give them a call. If you want to get more info. If this aerobatic thing is making you tick I would say give it all you ve got.
http://www.poweraerobatics.com
If you do go down you wont regret it.
Anyhow good luck with what ever you decide.
You want to be extremely good at it. You want to be different, marketable.
I have one recommendation, for few reasons.
1. To ensure that this is something you truly want to do and make the decision not only based on doing that type of flying for more than 5, 10, or even 20 hours of Aerobatics. Because you wont really get the full picture by just doing it in Canada.
2. to see if your body can take that kind of abuse, on a daily basses I would recommend that you go down south for some aerobatic flying. Not to get the rating, because you can do that here in Canada.
3. and I am not saying that we in Canada aren’t good.
But to get a different look at flying all together.
I recommend you go and Fly at “Power Aerobatics” in California. Flight school owned and operated by the “ Suean D. Tucker. “
If you don’t know the name for starters you may not love it as much as you may think you do.
But non the less. You could do an aerobatic Crash coarse for 3 weeks.
Yes it would be expensive but defiantly worth it if you are going to make a long term career out of it. It’s the experience you are going for just like what all the guys up there have said, about aerobatics. Its an investment that will save your life, and bring you the edge you may need to break into the aerobatic industry which is almost non existent in Canada.
If you are lucky enough Sean may do a flight or two with you, if you bug the Chief flight Instructor enough to convince him to let you fly with Sean.
If you are good, and have your heart in it. Sean will see that within the first 5 minutes. Sean is known to grab anyone from anywhere around the world to fly with him or for his team. He may ask you to stick around for a bit, longer and pay you a shit load of money.
So it could be a good thing.
Not to mention you get to fly different type of equipments. Pitt Special and the 300’s , and the fact that you get to fly with the world’s number one aerobatic pilot is something else.
Check it out, and maybe give them a call. If you want to get more info. If this aerobatic thing is making you tick I would say give it all you ve got.
http://www.poweraerobatics.com
If you do go down you wont regret it.
Anyhow good luck with what ever you decide.
Just a comment on the above ... there's a reason why there is no serious aerobatic training in Canada. Air Combat Canada tried it with a couple Extra 300's in one of the biggest markets in Canada (Toronto) and they're gone.the aerobatic industry which is almost non existent in Canada
Brent Rogers tried it on a much smaller scale (zlin leaseback, again in Toronto) and he couldn't even make that work.
All I can suggest is that before you decide to get into the aerobatic training business in Canada, do your market research first. I might humbly suggest that you get an airplane that can also be used for tailwheel training, and can realistically be insured for solo rental as well as dual training. A Super-D is good for this. A Pitts or Extra, not so good.
Frankly, if you want to do aerobatics, move to Florida or California or Texas - they have summer year-round. Flying an aerobatic airplane in the winter is like riding a motorcycle in the winter. You can do it, but it's gonna hurt.
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Rhys Perraton
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- Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2005 10:11 am
