Airplane into building in Richmond.

[CCnCoke]

AO. Ref. No./
No de référence de l'EA 86778-V1



Occurrence date/time
Date/heure de l'événement: 2007-10-19 23:03 z
Reported date/time
Date/heure de signalement: 2007-10-20 01:39 z
Reporting unit
Unité responsable du rapport: Vancouver ACC
ACC de Vancouver



Classification: Aircraft/Pilot Related
Relié à l'aéronef/au pilote
Type
Catégorie: Aircraft accident
Accident d'aéronef
OI Assessment
Évaluation de l'IE : Site / Emplacement
Not an OI
Pas une IE Head Office / Siège social


Location of occurrence
Lieu de l'incident: CYVR/
Vancouver Intl
Location description/
Description du lieu:


Summary description/
Description sommaire: CFGHFD a PA34 CYVR to CYPK departed runway 08R at 2303Z and experienced communication problems with the Control Tower. Based on a review of the radar information, the transponder was either turned off or malfunctioning. No secondary radar return on the aircraft was present. Shortly thereafter, the aircraft was reported to have crashed into an apartment building in downtown Richmond. There was one soul on board. He did not survive the accident.

[justplanecrazy]

Not that age had anything to do with this accident, we really have no clue as to what happend yet, but I've never met a controller that never acknowledged his brain isn't what it once was, before retiring. Most of them were in there late 50's early 60's and you could see the decline from year to year. My dad comments on his memory and mind not being as sharp as they once were quite regularly. I think it's important to be cognisant of this FACT and not let pride or denial get in the way of a safe flight.

Sure some people can fly in airshows in their 80's but others can't even taxi. I hope someone reminds me of that when I'm there as well. At some point you have to light a match under your licence and if we don't do it on our own, then maybe something like JL's cognitive program should be implemented by TC. We've all seen the blind, deaf and scary elderly driver on the road, and I've seen them in the air as well.

[sportingrifle]

It never ceases to amaze me how many aviation experts start speculating, and/or Monday morning quarterbacking, on the cause of an accident before the wreckage has even stopped skidding. It also never ceases to amaze me how these same experts either get it completely wrong, or at best, don't comprehend the critical links in the accidents chain of events. It is really tempting to go back into the forums and repost the actual results of an incident or accident investigation beside the original speculative posts.

So far on this one we have a mis-handled engine failure, a combination engine/gear failure, running out of fuel, and suicide, all with an aftertaste of reduced cognitive ability. We make the media look professional and insightful by comparison.

As the years go by, and tens of thousands of hours fill the many logbooks, I get less and less critical of other misfortunate aviators, and more and more reflective of the complexities of their misfortunes. Just my $0.02.

"My loyalty and dedication to my employer is exceeded only by their loyalty and dedication to me." LOL.

[Cat Driver]

It is human nature to ask what could have caused such a spectacular crash that the evening news was focused on nothing but the crash.

There were many many witnesses that commented on the same things such as the gear was down when it hit the building.

One witness was a pilot / instructor who actually saw the airplane as it lost directional control.

Therefore it is only normal to ask what could have caused this to happen, of course there must be a full investigation but in this particular case there were a lot of people who claim to have seen the same things.

Maybe we should have a policy of never discussing accidents, to avoid coming to the wrong reasons for these crashes, and leave it up to the experts to report in a year or so?

[spafloats]

Condolences to the family and friends of the pilot. Such a sad end to a long and serving aviation legacy.

[Luscombe]

I knew Pete a couple of decades ago when I lived in BC. My life is richer for knowing such an interesting man. Even though I haven't seen him in many years, I feel a great loss.

He was always a very consciencious pilot when I knew him. My condolences to his friends and family.

[Wixel Pimp]

RIP, Pete Garrison......




Cat Driver....

Quit while you are ahead...You are making yourself look ridiculous.....Go play some golf or do some gardening, just watch the hip.....

[AirAddict]

Go play some golf or do some gardening, just watch the hip.....

...Classic

[CID]

I'm with Cat on this one. We should certainly be able to discuss airplane crashes on an aviation website. Let's not buy in to the select few (you know who you are) that want to make this into a memorial site. Some are exhibiting fairly ghoulish tendencies.

Deaths occur in all industries. Discussion regarding the circumstances can help change aviation safety for the better.

Obviously, discussion should be somewhat respectful but that shouldn’t stop us from discussing pertinent issues. In my opinion it’s perfectly fine to speculate on the cause of the crash even if it calls the pilot’s abilities into question.

Sweeping all this under the rug because it may hurt someone’s feelings is ridiculous.

And for all you “experts” who take some kind of obscure joy in pointing out the media’s struggle with facts, keep in mind that all they do is report the news with the available resources. They don’t always get it right the first time. So what? Place yourself in their shoes. Do we expect a reporter to be an expert in everything they report on?

Do you guys actually crave the need to feel superior that badly?

[Hedley]

It's official - there are snowballs in Hell, because ., CID and I are all agreement. We should learn from the mistakes of others. I hope if I ever dig a hole, someone learns from it, and perhaps they won't make the same mistake. I dunno - maybe that's too complicated.

As far as the media goes ... what you should learn here is that the media gets EVERYTHING wrong. Take everything they say with a large boulder of salt.

[Widow]

CID, I'm not sure I understand (as usual ). How does remembering those lost, and trying to figure out what could have been done to prevent their deaths (in order to prevent future deaths), detract from what you've stated:

Discussion regarding the circumstances can help change aviation safety for the better.

If people forget, they won't learn.

[Doc]

Stop the presses. I'm with CID on this issue. We have WAY too many crashes! We NEED to learn WHY, and move to educate some, so they don't happen so regularly! I'm fed up with all the "RIP", "Godspeed" crap! Let's get to the bottom of the problem! Stupid should HURT!

[Doc]

Widow (I'm going to get jumped on here, for sure) we aren't at war. These are, for the most part, totally avoidable accidents. It should not be a memorial, but a learning experience. Otherwise, it's a complete waste. I do not know the stats...but....rest assured.....most accidents are pilot error. There. I said it. And, let all try and learn something from it.
I, for one, am really sick and tired of having to read about all these accidents, followed by hearing about what a sweet guy "George" was. If "George" had learned from past accidents, maybe we would not be here talking about "George"?

[MUSKEG]

Woaaa take it easy their you'll pop a vein. But I agree with you. We have crashes because what we do is inheritly unpredictable. It's training and ability that take unpredictability to an acceptable level. Some will never train and couple that with average ability and the outcome is obvious. For that same reason not all Doctors are brain surgeons.

[Widow]

We've been over this before Doc. Some agree with you, some don't.

Please refer back to the discussion generated about pilot error on this thread: Remembering Pilots

I still think Living_Sky said it best:

A lot of great points have been raised in this thread, from a lot of established points of view. None of us are wrong... but then, none of us are completely right (myself included)

Quoting Widow:

Again, I agree that pilot error is often the last link in the chain of events leading to an accident. Perhaps the pilot isn't experienced, or educated enough to make the right decision

Pilot error is not the last link in the chain of events, as much as it is the investigators first cop out. Somewhere down the line every accident comes down to a flaw in the Safety Management System.

For example...

The following is a ficticious scenario - Prop spun off the engine resulting in a forced approach over rocky terrain killing all on board -

Some might feel its sufficient to say the cause of the accident was the fact that the prop separated from the aircraft, forcing the pilot to make a decision to land without power.

why...
Investigation of the crank showed broken prop bolts at 4 locations
Conclusion is therefor that the prop seperated due to sheared prop bolts

why...
Tests of the remaining 'bolt' segments show rotational stress at the point of fracture indicating they may have been over-tightened
Conclusion therefore is that the prop separated from the aircraft because the prop bolts sheared off, because they had been overtightened

why...
Reveiwing the maintenance logs, the AMO was contacted and further investigation ensued. Speaking with the AME logged as having worked on the aircraft, investigators found the actual torque wrench used. Upon testing, investigators find the wrench is calibrated 50lb lighter than it should be.
Conclusion therefore is that the prop separated from the aircraft because the prop bolts sheared off, because they had been overtightened because the torque wrench used was calibrated 50lb lower than true

why...
Investigating the AMO's SMS, Investigators find record of several reported instances of faulty or inadequate equipment; but no indication of equipment repair, training, maintenance or replacement.
Conclusion therefore is that the prop separated from the aircraft because the prop bolts sheared off, because they had been overtightened because the torque wrench used was calibrated 50lb lower than true, because the company had an inadequate management system in place to replace, maintain or inspect equipment.


Now this was a ficticious scenario, however... I don't beleive in Pilot Error, nor do I beleive in 'Human Error' as its called in other industries.
- uneducated pilot decisions = SMS has failed to provide proper orientation/education
- unforseen circumstances = SMS has failed to encompass all available situations
- pilot 'Bad Attitude' = SMS has failed to provide disciplinary guidelines
- Faulty Equipment/Facilities = SMS has failed to put proper inspection system in place to identify needs.
- and so on.....

The key word is system... Safety Management System and no matter what type of situation... 9 times out of 10... no... 99 times out of 100, it's the system that has failed!

I am an occupational Health and Safety Coordinator with 15 years experience in the patch... drilling rigs which started out as one of the most dangerous places to work, and which, through use of SMS's have now grown into one of the safest. (AB WCB Statistics 1995)

The SMS systems presented by TC are terrific... some may find this odd.. but using parts of their system, I am likely the only airshow performer in NA with a safety manual. In presenting us with the system however... TC needs to focus training on their own personnel to allow for uniformity and understanding requirements of Employers as well as employees as they relate to SMS's, The Aviation OH&S regs, as well as The Canada Labor Code.

We need the same informed answer from the first TC phone... as the next.

Whether the pilot was or was not at fault, families have lost a loved one. If it was preventable - in any way - then perhaps the next death can be prevented by remembering.

So, IMHO, it is seldom (maybe never) enough to simply say "pilot error". If a pilot makes errors - then why? And what could have been done differently - by all/any parties?

You admit we need to learn from accidents. Remembering is a good way to do that. I think a lot of aviators here on the wet coast would say, they learned something from our accident ... and are still learning, because we won't let you forget.

[Doc]

I stated my opinion. Simple as that. I'm not going to discuss SMS, chain of events, or any of that. Most of the time the pilot descends below a hard figure printed on a sheet of paper right in front of him. It has very little to do with what he had for breakfast, who signs out his airplane, if his autopilot works, etc. Taking the "lets see how many other factors we can blame" routine is just getting more, and more, and more pilots killed! It's as simple as that! And, IMHO, until we can put all the Transport Canada inspired "buzz" words on the back burner, these accidents WILL continue! My proof? They are STILL happening! Toss all the politically correct BULL SHIT out the window, and watch out for YOUR OWN ass!! Too simple for you? Well, it's always worked! The pilot is the last line of defense. Take the responsibility for YOUR actions. Stop passing the buck. Because passing the buck is always posthumous!

And I am outta here.

[Donald]

Most of the time the pilot descends below a hard figure printed on a sheet of paper right in front of him.

Just to add and agree with what Doc said, take a look at the accident examples TC used when they justified the new approach ban. Scary stuff.

Edited to add: with the exception of AC at YFC and maybe 7F at YEG, the rest were just plain dumb.

[Cat Driver]

This sure can be an interesting site when you get stuff like the following from this poster:

Wixel Pimp
Rank 1
Rank 1


Joined: 30 Aug 2006
Posts: 30


PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2006 8:45 pm


" Believe what you like, but there are some quality planes, pilots, and 703 companies operating out of YVR right now..."

I commented thus:

WTF is going on in aviation when having quality planes and pilots operating in one of Canadas largest aviation centers is so unusual that people marvel at such a thing??


Which brought this response:

I wasnt marvelling, I was simply stating a fact. For the first time in a longtime, 703 in YVR is in a decent state. Pilots are getting treated well, flying good aircraft and accumulating some good time.


Everyone on this site rips on the 703 operators, but what you should be doing is removing your head from your ass and talk about things you actuallly have some knowledge about.

The part I love is this bit:

but what you should be doing is removing your head from your ass and talk about things you actuallly have some knowledge about.

If I don't know anything about flying after 55 years in aviation then maybe I should just step aside and let experts like this one educate the masses.....cause I'm betting he/she has seen it all.

I'll make you a deal Wixel Pimp, lets forget about golf and how about you taking me flying and show me how its done

[2R]

WTF would a pimp know about flying ???
Most pimps are usually diseased whoremasters who beat and dehumanize women destroying their self esteem to get them to work in a dehumanizing dangerous distressing demoralizing disgusting job to pay for drugs .

I could be wrong again ,maybe it is a career choice thesedays ???
Did they have that as a career choice at your school ???

Oh Yeah ,we love a good CAT FIGHT !!!!
But the winner of this one would be too easy to predict

[Cat Driver]

2R:

This B.S. about we shouldn't discuss these accidents is just that B.S.

When an accident that gets the media coverage this one got where the TV had nothing but coverage of the accident for over two hours of prime time is anyone going to tell me that the pilots sitting in the Flying Beaver that evening did not discuss the accident in deference to the deceased?

I'm with Doc on these accidents, there are far to many of them and the more we can learn from them the better the chances of others maybe not having the same kind of accident.

So once again......I have commented on the gear being down....I know for a fact that many schools teach pilots that you leave the gear down in a twin engine airplane until there is no runway ahead to land on....in fact one school was teaching leaving the gear down until 400 feet above ground.

That is just plain stupid in my opinion.

AND I AM NOT SAYING HE LEFT IT DOWN ON PURPOSE!!! We don't know what happened in that airplane, but whatever it was I sure as hell would like to know.

Waiting for a year or two for the accident report is one thing but why can't people at least discuss these things, without someone getting all bent out of shape?

[xsbank]

Before the shooting starts, don't you guys discuss these accidents/incidents with fellow pilots? Don't you pontificate and make guesses and try and discover what happened, before you really know? I don't know about the rest of you but that's what I do; I see this site as just a wider expression of what goes on in the coffee shops / lounges / bars.

I agree with Cat when he finds it amazing that some of you find it remarkable that 703 at YVR is now somewhat civilized, at last. Considering its a major international airport and a hub for the West Coast, that TC has a base there, the fact that its taken this long to purge the yahoos and the shysters from the area is laughable. YVR is a microcosm of all that's still wrong with aviation in Canada.

Did anybody ever find put if that company at YVR DID toast per diems?

The purpose of this site is discussion. Even if we get the causes all wrong and the propellor really did fall off, we have reviewed all the possibilities that our experience can deduce and we re-affirmed our commitment to safety while we resolve to try and never repeat what we have discussed, even if it wasn't really why 'that pilot' died.

I think every one of us agrees to be the potential subject of a debrief, every time we go near an a/c. That can not be construed as a lack of respect for the deceased, but a sincere desire to not be there ourselves.

[sky's the limit]

The next time somebody looks at me in utter disbelief when I tell them what pilots make, I'm simply going to scrawl http://www.avcanada.ca on a piece of paper. After reading this, they'll understand.

There was a crash, we are pilots, if you don't learn from the mistakes of others, you'll never live long enough to make them all yourself. This is an aviation site, not a Wake, lets try acting like it.

stl

[Cool Rythms!]

Man, that was something huh! I was in YVR just days prior to that. First thing that crossed my mind, was that it was some extremist making another statement. A lot of people thought that, I'm sure, cause it just reminded everyone too much of 911.

[diesel-10]

For those who are actually interested in the facts:
1. The gear was NOT extended. (The wheels are visible when retracted.)
2. The aircraft entered the [u]9th[/u] floor apartment.
3. Avgas WAS present on the 9th, 8th, and 7th floors.
4. The engines ARE turbocharged.
5. The Seneca was airborne for about a minute
6. It was in a right turn for the VOR.

[Cat Driver]

I see you are back again diesel-10:

So I read the few contributions you have made here and I have a question.

Judging from how little you knew about the subjects you so forcefully commented on before why should your latest contribution be taken as factual?

Where did you get these facts?