AC pilots highest paid in North America

Hadji Ramjet · Post by **Hadji Ramjet** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 10:49 am

I am curious to know if the Canadi>n pilots let the Air Canada pilots fly the 777.

Since only 28 of 163 B777 Captains are OCP, that comment merely points out your level of ignorance.

Johnny767 · Post by **Johnny767** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 10:53 am

rudder wrote:
Johnny767 wrote:[![/b]

Our 320 Captains make substantially less that a Westjet 737 Captain.

Add back the pension and benefit costs and you are dead wrong.

I don't agree! There is ZERO guarantee the Air Canada Pension will still be here, when you retire.

The way this company is run, with its US style management, simply ask an United / Delta / Northwest Pilot about their Pension.

Now, our rules are different in Canada, but, we fought off a major frontal assault of the Pilots pension under CCAA.

It will happen again.

ACPA is in such a mess, I'm not so sure we could fight it off again.

linebacker35 · Post by **linebacker35** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 1:39 pm

Jeez you know most people would see money like that and go woooow! Yet a vast majority of pilots make referance to how they work for poverty wages.... you all do relize the vast majority of people make well under 50 grand a year

Heck alot of people make in the 30's! My brother is a fire fighter making 30 grand a year to run into burning buildings to save people on a daily basis.... yet you will NEVER see a fire fighter bitch and complain about money every chance they get.

There are many jobs that pay a hell of a lot less and arnt nearly as exciting or rewarding as being a pilot, so everyone needs to stop b**ching so much about this.
Good for the few and far between out there that fly because they love to fly not cause they want to make half a million a year
If you get into a proffesion just to make money then you deserve to be miserable!!!

I do strongly believe that pilots should be one of the highest paying jobs out there and pilots earn every dollar they make! Im just saying dont bitch and complain about a good thing, alot of people have it alot worse

fasteddie · Post by **fasteddie** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 2:18 pm

Linebacker, you're quite the idealist.

I guarantee that professional fire fighters sitting around the firehouse between fires DO go on at length about their pay, working conditions, contract, representation, management.

We go to work to make money to provide the things we need and want in our lives away from work. Period.

No intelligent person says, "well, my job is important so I'll just shut up and accept whatever pay I can get and sleep well knowing I'm contributing to society. My kid doesn't really need new shoes and braces."

Besides, people are making money off our backs in a way that doesn't happen with firefighters. Think about it and give your head a shake.

By the way, I don't go to work for 'excitement and rewarding experiences'. I go to work to make money, as much money as I can, and have as much time off as I can so that I can have the best possible life outside of work for me and my family.

Hadji Ramjet · Post by **Hadji Ramjet** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 2:22 pm

I'm calling bullpucky on the $30K firefighter pay. Two of my nephews are firefighters, one Vancouver one Coquitlam, and they net substantially more than $30K annually.

linebacker35 · Post by **linebacker35** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 3:03 pm

Hadji Ramjet wrote:I'm calling bullpucky on the $30K firefighter pay. Two of my nephews are firefighters, one Vancouver one Coquitlam, and they net substantially more than $30K annually.

Yes Calgary is in the low 40's as I imagine with vancouver, this is due to higher cost of living... Edmonton is in the 30's to start

Al707 · Post by **Al707** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 12:32 am

To START!!!

You can now remove foot from mouth idiot! When I started 20 years ago I made about 24k and now having "made it" I'm on 36k.

30K to start sounds good! Brand new 20 somethings right out of school.

BTW... I have a 12 year firefighter on my streeet and he's doing just fine and home much more than me.

How about you keep your B's about how good things are for us to yourself?

linebacker35 · Post by **linebacker35** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 1:33 am

Al707 wrote:To START!!!

You can now remove foot from mouth idiot! When I started 20 years ago I made about 24k and now having "made it" I'm on 36k.

30K to start sounds good! Brand new 20 somethings right out of school.

BTW... I have a 12 year firefighter on my streeet and he's doing just fine and home much more than me.

How about you keep your B's about how good things are for us to yourself?

Yes pilots makin in the 30's(for 1-2 years) is a crime against humanity

who the f**k cares about the other 80% of the population that makes about the same money.... hell i went to school down in the states in a community that was actualy poverty stricken, people there working 2 jobs at like 5.50 and hour for their entire lives.. not just a few years!
My god I hope they make a PBS special on the poor poverty stricken pilot proffesion.... maybe they will hold a telethon to raise money for the cause to one day solve this problem
Hey buddy take a look at the world around you before you f**kin say how bad things are for you!

I like your 12 year firefighter comment... and u call me the idiot haha First year fire fighters make in the 30's and that goes up like the 12 year fire fighter on your block...... But guess what, same thing happens at aircanada! That 1st year pilot makin 30 grand after 12 years is a airbus captain making 150 grand

shocker huh?

Johnny767 · Post by **Johnny767** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 6:48 am

Why are we comparing a Fire Fighter to an Airline Pilot?

A Fire Fighter doesn't invest one red cent in his education. Application requirements are a pulse and a High School diploma.

Next comparison.....

Lost in Saigon · Post by **Lost in Saigon** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 6:53 am

So an EMB captain who is getting $114/hour would make roughly $114,000/year.
EC

After taxes, you take home about half of that. Then when you try to spend your take-home pay, you find that EVERTHING in Canada is overpriced. To add insult to injury, PST and GST is added to almost everything.

You can't even get a break by buying a used car. Each time that car is sold it has taxes added to the price. And then we have to put gas in it. That's when you see we have taxes on taxes. Only in Canada are you taxed on the "Taxes In" price.

Bottom line:

Even if it were true that AC pilots make more, I am quite sure it doesn't result in a higher lifestyle.

Red1 · Post by **Red1** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 7:53 am

I think Linebacker has a point although I don't agree with his love of flying. it's a job we do because it pays us money, and we would all like more money and more time off. However, the average income in Canada is 60,000 (this varies depending on which province you are in). In a family home with one earner the average is 57,000 and with with two people working it's 89,000. So we are as whole in the upper end of earners in Canada.

I also think a profession we must realize that the days of huge wages are gone. The game has fundamentally been changed over the last decade. More people fly than ever before at prices which the market dictates. Aviation has entered the market economy. Historically aviation has been a money loosing industry, with heavy government control. What we now see is an industry that is like any other, driven by shareholder profit. This does not preclude us as a profession from asking for more money and more days off. I think we need to have realistic goals in mind. So in the end what I am saying... don't expect a big raise if any in 09.

Bede · Post by **Bede** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 8:29 am

I'm with linebacker on this one. Some of you need to see what the rest of canadians earn, let alone people in third world countries. I realize that there is a difference in education and responsibility of being a pilot as compared to other professions, but please don't call yourself poverty-stricken.

My brother recently spent some time in africa. They had people who were gravel makers: they started with a rock, they hammered for hours until it turned to gravel. That would give you enough money for rice and sauce. Perhaps it would be wise for some of you to take stock at how good we have it in this country, and within the jobs we have.

Here is a link for incomes: http://www40.statcan.ca/l01/cst01/famil21a.htm

Median income for single people is about $35K. Also keep in mind, we make more than teachers, most family docs and average lawyers make about 100K (same as Jazz pilots).

I bought my first house when I earned $24K, and had a kid and wife at home. I think a good chunck of you don't earn too little, but spend too much.

Johnny767 · Post by **Johnny767** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 8:36 am

Is it any wonder that Pilot wages are at an all time low.

Does the average Canadian wage earned vest the energy, money and time in their profession that the Airline Pilot does?

You're only worth the wages, you believe you deserve!

Hadji Ramjet · Post by **Hadji Ramjet** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 8:47 am

Not really sure why pilot-firefighter comparisons are being made, but that said:

Edmonton is in the 30's to start

Maybe your bro should go east of refinery row, starting pay over here in Strathcona County is $52,531 as of 1 July, before benefits and shift differential. Shurley the cost of living in the Park isn't all that much higher than Edmonton, to account for the difference? Or maybe Edmonton actually pays more than $30K to start? Plus, all three halls plus the volunteer halls responded to 723 fires last year, so they're not having to "run into burning buildings to save people on a daily basis." 'Course Edmonton doesn't have so many fires as to require that either, but that's just another gross exaggeration, isn't it?

When I started 20 years ago I made about 24k and now having "made it" I'm on 36k.

Al707, what is it you do that hasn't even kept up to inflation? A two-year technologist grad can start around here at better than that, unskilled labour can do better than that if you're fit and can hack the rough working environment. Twenty years on and you net $3K a month?

linebacker35 · Post by **linebacker35** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 9:17 am

Hadji Ramjet wrote:Not really sure why pilot-firefighter comparisons are being made, but that said:
Edmonton is in the 30's to start
Maybe your bro should go east of refinery row, starting pay over here in Strathcona County is $52,531 as of 1 July, before benefits and shift differential. Shurley the cost of living in the Park isn't all that much higher than Edmonton, to account for the difference? Or maybe Edmonton actually pays more than $30K to start? Plus, all three halls plus the volunteer halls responded to 723 fires last year, so they're not having to "run into burning buildings to save people on a daily basis." 'Course Edmonton doesn't have so many fires as to require that either, but that's just another gross exaggeration, isn't it?

This is really departing off the topic but:
For one NOT ONE firefighter got into it for the money! And guess... the one station he was at in edmonton had the BUSSIEST PUMP TRUCK(most calls) in North America last year! let me know anything you have done in your life that has amounted to more then anyone of those men and women risking their a$$es to save arogant people like u! Its not just fires by the way.... who do you think does first on the scene medical assistance?

Anyway this topic is not on Firefighters, so the few of you that are, you can stop trying to prove you are better then them now so we can get back to the actual topic of comparative airline salary!

linebacker35 · Post by **linebacker35** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 9:19 am

Johnny767 wrote:Why are we comparing a Fire Fighter to an Airline Pilot?

A Fire Fighter doesn't invest one red cent in his education. Application requirements are a pulse and a High School diploma.

Next comparison.....

If you or your family ever requires help from any member of the fire department be sure to tell them all they needed was a pulse and a high school diploma

Bede · Post by **Bede** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 9:27 am

Johnny767 wrote: You're only worth the wages, you believe you deserve!

Johnny,
Actually, you're only worth the wages others will pay you. In my case, that's $41K, and $48K next weeks

If what you said was true, the 7/11 girl would be worth the same as you because she think she deserves it.

Also, keep in mind, wages are inversly proportional to employment. If wages were as high as some of you would want, you might be out of a job. Keep in mind the principle of equilibrium is as true in economics as it is in physics.

I'm not an advocate for lower wages, but I think many of us need a greater perspective. If

Johnny767 · Post by **Johnny767** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 9:31 am

Well linebacker, you're the guy who started this thread, then made the following comments;

If it wernt for those AC pilots those canadian pilots would be flippin burgers right now

Heck alot of people make in the 30's! My brother is a fire fighter making 30 grand a year to run into burning buildings to save people on a daily basis.... yet you will NEVER see a fire fighter bitch and complain about money every chance they get.

Like it, or not, those are the requirements to apply for a job as a Fire Fighter.

Would you like an application, as a Pilot for Air Canada, for comparison?

Johnny767 · Post by **Johnny767** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 9:34 am

Johnny,
Actually, you're only worth the wages others will pay you. In my case, that's $41K, and $48K next weeks

If what you said was true, the 7/11 girl would be worth the same as you because she think she deserves it.

Also, keep in mind, wages are inversly proportional to employment. If wages were as high as some of you would want, you might be out of a job. Keep in mind the principle of equilibrium is as true in economics as it is in physics.

I'm not an advocate for lower wages, but I think many of us need a greater perspective. If[/quote]

Well, having been involved in negotiations, for Pilot wages.

I can tell you rule number one is believing you DESERVE to be paid, the wages you are demanding.

If YOU don't believe you deserve that wage, you will NEVER convince the guy across the table.

Al707 · Post by **Al707** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 10:08 am

Hadji.

I work at AC and those of us relative new hires aren't as loaded as the general population seems to think.

linebacker35 · Post by **linebacker35** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 12:08 pm

Johnny767 wrote:Well linebacker, you're the guy who started this thread, then made the following comments;

If it wernt for those AC pilots those canadian pilots would be flippin burgers right now

Heck alot of people make in the 30's! My brother is a fire fighter making 30 grand a year to run into burning buildings to save people on a daily basis.... yet you will NEVER see a fire fighter bitch and complain about money every chance they get.

Like it, or not, those are the requirements to apply for a job as a Fire Fighter.

Would you like an application, as a Pilot for Air Canada, for comparison?

My friend you made a comment earlier about all firefighters need is a pulse and a high school diploma.... how many pilots out there have a university degree?? hmmm??
People wonder why the public hates pilots and portrays them as overpaid and full of themselves(remember the AC strike in the 90's, pilots were public enemy #1)... well ladies and gentlemen its the people like Johnny767 that think that they are better then everyone else and deserve only the best and make that opinion known! People like him give the rest of us pilots out there a bad name. Let me tell you people dont like to hear some pilot bitching about their salary and making comments about how they are better and more valued then firefighters, or doctors, or police officers.
Feel free to take some cheap shots about how your better then members of our armed forces and vetrans next...

Jaques Strappe · Post by **Jaques Strappe** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 12:20 pm

Johnny 767

I agree with you. You need to believe you deserve the money.

If anyone wants to compare AC pilot wages with American pilot wages, or look at firefighters or Police, then why does an American cop get paid close to minimum wage to be shot at all day, while an OPP officer makes 100K running a radar trap?

You really cannot compare wages across the borders. There are way too many occupations with salaries miles apart. Doctors, Nurses, Police, only to name a few. The only ones in recent history to close the gap, are CEO's and management bonuses.

At least, that should be the story when you walk in to negotiations and get hit with that inevitable argument.

Johnny767 · Post by **Johnny767** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 12:36 pm

Well linebacker, YOU started a thread alleging that Air Canada Pilots are the highest paid.

Which is complete crap!

I don't know what you do for a living, obviously not an Airline Pilot. As you have shown in this thread, you don't have two clues about what you're talking about.

An 18 year old kid can walk out of the High School class room and apply to be a Police Officer or Fire Fighter. Get hired, get a free (two month) course and have a job, earning a pay cheque.

Every Municipality in Canada is hiring.

It is not even close to becoming a Professional Pilot, Airline or otherwise.

If you want, in your uninformed opinion, to class that as arrogance, then please do.

Lost in Saigon · Post by **Lost in Saigon** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 12:48 pm

From his posts, it appears that linebacker35 is an airline pilot wannabe who has some kind of familiarly or connection with "Original Air Canada" pilots

http://www.avcanada.ca//forums2/search. ... nebacker35

QUOTE:

My ultimate goal is to make it to Air Canada. I have to make a choice in the next few days whether to transfer to Mount Royal's aviation program(2 year diploma) or finish off my degree at the U of C while working on my commercial and other ratings on the side.

I am curious to know if the Canadi>n pilots let the Air Canada pilots fly the 777. If it wernt for those AC pilots those canadian pilots would be flippin burgers right now

Bede · Post by **Bede** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 1:59 pm

Johnny,

You can believe you should make more money all day long, but the reason you get a pay raise sure isn't because mgmt thinks you deserve more money. Mgmt will try to squeeze you as much as possible. Mgmt gives you a pay raise based on economics pure and simple.

In a non unionized environment, your employer personally gives you a raise because he calculates the probability and cost of losing you. In a unionized workplace, mgmt considers the probability and cost of a strike. As pilots we need to stop having the typical mentaility of organized labour (whose wages have also gone down like ours), but focus on how we provide value for our employers (like accountants do).

I am certainly not advocating lower wages, but a change in mindset from a "we deserve more money" mentality to a "we bring X amount of value to your organization" mentality. Until we change our way of thinking, our profession will follow that of the autoworker.