AC pilots highest paid in North America

Johnny767 · Post by **Johnny767** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 3:22 pm

Thanks for the Economics 101.

No offense Bede, but...I've been in the Aviation business for 35 years. Have been involved with CALPA and ALPA, during good times and bad.

I've seen the reasons, first hand, why Pilots renumeration has declined.

I could go on for days, with my views about how we should fix it.

On linebacker, I was starting to think he was a Junior High kid, home sick, with nothing to do.

Mom's a F/A and big brother just joined the Fire Department?

linebacker35 · Post by **linebacker35** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 3:34 pm

Lost in Saigon wrote:From his posts, it appears that linebacker35 is an airline pilot wannabe who has some kind of familiarly or connection with "Original Air Canada" pilots

http://www.avcanada.ca//forums2/search. ... nebacker35

QUOTE:

My ultimate goal is to make it to Air Canada. I have to make a choice in the next few days whether to transfer to Mount Royal's aviation program(2 year diploma) or finish off my degree at the U of C while working on my commercial and other ratings on the side.

I am curious to know if the Canadi>n pilots let the Air Canada pilots fly the 777. If it wernt for those AC pilots those canadian pilots would be flippin burgers right now

Never said I was an AC pilot, decided to go the airforce route after I get my astrophysics degree im currently in my sophmore year Which I have said in previous posts... And yes I do have connections with "Original Air Canada" pilots... Interesting that the attacks on me started after I made the Canadian comment.... let me guess former canadian pilots? Well if so just be glad u live in a socialist country or else you would have gone the way of TWA.... furlough protection for AA's pilots!

Jaques Strappe · Post by **Jaques Strappe** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 3:37 pm

Bede

That was a great post. A good debate without being argumentative is refreshing. To play devils' advocate however, how does a CEO who bankrupts a company, gives its' creditors and employees a haircut, all the while stuffing his own pockets with cash, justify his existence or value to the company?

There was once a time when these guys were indeed responsible, not only to the shareholder but to the company, its' employees and its' legacy. Shareholders today can easily be bought off ( as ACE has demonstrated ) and tend not to look beyond next week. As you have already implied, employees are seen as nothing more than a liability.

The way I see it, one can sit back and do nothing, or stand up for what one believes in, whether that be a salary raise or any other value you hold close.

I make less money today as an EMJ Captain than I did 7 years ago as a DC9 Captain. How about AC management? Do you think they are making less?

People say that the airline industry has changed and the previous model is broken. Well, if that were indeed true, executive salaries would not be at record highs. This only proves that the money is obviously still there, perhaps it is about time that Pilots claim some of it back.

I will never forget the front page of USA Today which reported the Northwest Pilot group taking a 39% pay cut due to Northwest Airlines being insolvent and on the same page, they also reported the bonuses that were given to Northwest management on the same day! Straight from one pocket into another. That pretty much sums up the "new aviation model".

My opinion anyway.

Cheers

Bede · Post by **Bede** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 3:40 pm

Hey Johnny,

No hard feelings at all. I think I'm safe to assume you have tried your best to improve the lot for pilots as a whole. I generally try to play devils advocate whenever I work with guys who want more money. If you can't convince me that you should make more money, I doubt you can convince mgmt. I have only been in this industry for 10 years, and I have seen the same thing you have seen. I just think it's time to change our strategies.

Cheers.

linebacker35 · Post by **linebacker35** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 3:44 pm

Johnny767 wrote:Thanks for the Economics 101.

No offense Bede, but...I've been in the Aviation business for 35 years. Have been involved with CALPA and ALPA, during good times and bad.

I've seen the reasons, first hand, why Pilots renumeration has declined.

I could go on for days, with my views about how we should fix it.

On linebacker, I was starting to think he was a Junior High kid, home sick, with nothing to do.

Mom's a F/A and big brother just joined the Fire Department?

Ahhh i was right... you are some old a$$ bitter canadian pilot arnt u! What not happy enough with flying nice new planes with big pay checks that was paid for by the sweat and blood of another pilot group? You were given a golden egg and still u b*tch that you didnt get enough... be happy you didnt get the TWA treatment!

Seriously man mock the fire department one more f*cking time! You are the only person I have ever heard of that looks down on them....
Yeah the men and women of our armed forces, police, fire arnt the real heros... there just a bunch of uneducated hicks... your the real hero

keep flying that 767 with honor

ps. speaking of education, whats your degree buddy? Since u look down on people without them. Im working on my ASTROPHYSICS degree!

Bede · Post by **Bede** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 3:49 pm

Thanks JS,

I am playing devil's advocate for the sake of a good debate. I believe the management argument is a red herring. Generally, I am in favour of CEO's making millions - if they provide a good return for the shareholder. If we place wage rate strictly as a function of value created, many CEO's should actually make more. However, as you mention, CEO's creating value is not always the case. However, I believe this is a corporate governance issue, not a pay issue. CEO's are like us-they take any money they can get-they're just better at it than we are. A CEO can't set their own pay, but will negotiate it with the board of directors. I believe there must be some arms length between the CEO (who wants to maximize their wage through short sighted decisions to maximize there own stock options) and the board of directors (who represent the shareholders and are responsible for longer term results.)

Anyways, I'm hoping for a pay raise for us both in '09, but I'm not holding my breath for the reasons stated in my previous posts. Anyways, I'm keeping my options open: if things tank in '09, I'll be done some schooling I'm doing now (thank God for reserve), and may be off somewhere else making more money and flying for the fun instead of the paycheck.

Cheers.

short bus · Post by **short bus** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 3:55 pm

wow, so you're a college student with no real life experience talking down to folks with decades of time on the job?

working on an astrophysics degree? I'm working on a swedish bikini model myself, doesn't mean I'm going to get one.

Jaques Strappe · Post by **Jaques Strappe** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 4:01 pm

Linebacker35 wrote:

Ahhh i was right... you are some old a$$ bitter canadian pilot arnt u! What not happy enough with flying nice new planes with big pay checks that was paid for by the sweat and blood of another pilot group? You were given a golden egg and still u b*tch that you didnt get enough... be happy you didnt get the TWA treatment!

Dude......you are waaay outside your league to be making comments like that. Thats the thing about Parrots, they always stand out in the jungle.

leftyxl · Post by **leftyxl** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 5:16 pm

Linebacker .....go to school....go learn something

. . · Post by **. .** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 6:05 pm

Linebacker: Take a few hits without the helmet on there buddy? I imagine you're taking astrophysics as a means to eventually calculate your stupidity, which to this point is unquantifiable using math and science.

Valcore · Post by **Valcore** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 9:01 pm

Just an observation, but Air Canada and Canadian merging had little to do with OAC pilots. It was between the two managements of the merging companys. Pilots don't run Air Canada Linebacker. Get a grip.

Four1oh · Post by **Four1oh** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 9:11 pm

endless wrote:Linebacker: Take a few hits without the helmet on there buddy? I imagine you're taking astrophysics as a means to eventually calculate your stupidity, which to this point is unquantifiable using math and science.

some string theory might just help him there.

linebacker35 · Post by **linebacker35** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 10:00 am

Jeez I post this as a good job guys at AC for standing up to managment and keeping a good contract RELATIVE to the rest of the industry! You may all believe it is still terrible but atleast AC didnt take 50%+ pay cuts, loose their pensions, work rules and all else they worked for over 60+ years tossed out like what happened south of the border! (Heck a UA 747 captain used to make $314 an hour!!! Now he makes $184!!)
US pilots are the ones who really got the shaft! Go on a US pilot forum and ask them about mesa then u will really apreciate the canadian aviation industry!!

'79K20driver · Post by **'79K20driver** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 11:24 am

What's with the comment about a firefighter only needing a pulse and a highschool education from johnny 767. Obviously another idiot. The kind I avoid on lay-overs. My bro is also a fire fighter and worked incredibly hard to get where he is. He volunteered for five years where he learned the ropes. He always kept in top shape not like most of the fat assed pilots out there, always networked with the local halls and made a lot of contacts. When he was finally sectected, he was one of 8 out of about 400apps. Oh, and for the medical, they did a little more than take his pulse, and if he put you in a headlock, MR '67, he'd pop yer head right off!
Your arrogance sure made you ignorant

Al707 · Post by **Al707** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 3:17 pm

We have laws in Canada to protect pensions from wayward MGMT types unlike the in the States.

The only problems arise from the company taking pension payment holidays when they are assessed as fully funded and the economy turns and the overall assessed value drops and they end up now under funded.

Granted a portion is derived from general revenues.

As far as your other idiotic statements re. the pay cuts elsewhere. If the pilots were to take a 50% hit then so should everyone else and it would have been more likely that the Cabin Crew or Ground Handlers or Mechanics shut the place down before the pilots would.

Back to school... fool.

tonysoprano · Post by **tonysoprano** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 7:17 pm

El Comat wrote:
tonysoprano wrote:As far as AC numbers go, it is interesting to note these tables are not even close to the real numbers for whatever reason. I have noticed this year over year for a long time. I have also confirmed this with other pilots. The tables have been known to understate the numbers as much as $20k. Take it for what it's worth, but don't take the tables seriously.

Amateur.
WJ numbers are impressive.
Tony,

I have a friend who is an EMB skipper and he said that to get a better idea of what the actual salary is at AC you take the hourly rate and multiply it by 1000. So an EMB captain who is getting $114/hour would make roughly $114,000/year. Does that make sense to you?

EC

Not really. Emb capt makes $136,000 plus according to a table I've seen. A friend of mine tells me he's closer to 150 (with perdiems).

29chev · Post by **29chev** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 8:10 pm

136,000 is 10th year pay in the left seat of the emj , first year is about 114,000 and there are about 40 Capts who are between 1-and 2nd years with AC so that is what they are getting paid.(114,000 ish)

thats just pay perdiem not included

Al707 · Post by **Al707** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 10:45 pm

Why on earth would someone count 75$ or so for 15,16,17 days away from home (perdiems) as part of their overall salary compensation?

Perdiem are to feed yourself, stay in touch with family, transport yourself around a strange city! Perdiems are not salary and are therefore not taxed as such!!

150K don't think so. Perhaps years 12,13,14 but not anytime soon.

linebacker35 · Post by **linebacker35** » Fri Nov 02, 2007 12:48 am

Al707 wrote:
As far as your other idiotic statements re. the pay cuts elsewhere. If the pilots were to take a 50% hit then so should everyone else and it would have been more likely that the Cabin Crew or Ground Handlers or Mechanics shut the place down before the pilots would.

Back to school... fool.

You make no sense what so ever..... that had nothing to do what so ever with my post! I simply stated US pilots GOT IT WORSE then AC pilots!!!!! Do you argue that? If you have any reason to believe this is wrong then state why instead of trying to insult me.

Do you believe AC got it worse then say USair, United, NWA, Delta? Its a yes or no question

tonysoprano · Post by **tonysoprano** » Fri Nov 02, 2007 6:36 am

29chev wrote:136,000 is 10th year pay in the left seat of the emj , first year is about 114,000 and there are about 40 Capts who are between 1-and 2nd years with AC so that is what they are getting paid.(114,000 ish)

thats just pay perdiem not included

Ok. So tell me, where else are you going to make $114k a yr. in your first two years of employment flying a regional jet? It certainly helps to put things in perspective sometimes. AC gives you the oppurtunity to fly left seat as a newhire, making a six-digit income and people still find this unacceptable? This is one of those topics that can go around in circles. While I don't accept the reduction in pay AC drivers have been hit with, it's still a pretty good gig. The trick is to not accept any further erosion and this will depend on many things.

Al707 · Post by **Al707** » Fri Nov 02, 2007 9:47 am

And how long till the music stops playing here Tony?

Yes things are good at the moment, albeit in YYZ.

Also don't forget that the left seat of the EMB (which is amazing to be able to hold it soon) is a commute to a reserve block for anyone other than those from Ontario or can move here.

In my opinion it will not last long.

tonysoprano · Post by **tonysoprano** » Fri Nov 02, 2007 11:20 am

Al707 wrote:And how long till the music stops playing here Tony?

Yes things are good at the moment, albeit in YYZ.

Also don't forget that the left seat of the EMB (which is amazing to be able to hold it soon) is a commute to a reserve block for anyone other than those from Ontario or can move here.

In my opinion it will not last long.

Al. You sound pretty sure of your doom and gloom prognostic. Care to enlighten us on the "why" part? I didn't know the music was going to stop. What won't last long?

Al707 · Post by **Al707** » Fri Nov 02, 2007 12:32 pm

Forget it.

Upgrades will continue for newhires for the forseeable future.

Pilots at AC will continue to be able to bid and hold a 100+ K gig in 12 to 18 months for the forseeable future.

I'll put my head back in the sand and stop thinking that we might just see this all slow down and none of us will be only able to hold positions in the position group for potentially long periods of time.

History hasn't taught me a thing and no one will be a 5,6,7 year postion group pilot earning a more resonable figure than the 100+ K stuff that keeps getting thrown around on this here forum.

You win.

After all it's just a small regional jet an we should be getting less shouldn't we? Bring on Jazz salaries!

We are loaded after all thanks for enlightening me

tonysoprano · Post by **tonysoprano** » Fri Nov 02, 2007 1:03 pm

Alrighty then (??).

Johnny767 · Post by **Johnny767** » Thu Nov 08, 2007 7:38 am

You cannot argue with the facts.

There is "Zero" prerequisites to become a Fire Fighter. If that offends you, so be it.

Every municipality in Canada is hiring Police and Fire Fighters.

You started the comparison of income!

Since we're approaching Remembrance Day, lets look at the income of an Army Private, putting his life on the line in Afghanistan. His training would be roughly the equivalent of a Fire Fighter.

Who's job is more dangerous, who earns more money? Does that mean the Fire Fighter is overpaid, or the Army Private underpaid?

You are a Troll, linebacker. You come to an Aviation Forum, then to an Air Canada Pilot link, and start mouthing off on topics that you do not have two clues about.

What's your motivation, linebacker?