Mandatory Language Training for International Students

Captain_Canuck · Post by **Captain_Canuck** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 10:10 pm

OK SERIOUSLY!!

I was at ZBB last night doing circles for some night PIC time and it sounded like the f'in United Nations!! Good grief!

I amazed that there is no mandatory language training for the pilots coming to Canada to learn to fly. With the poor communication at the busier airports, it is only going to be a mater of time before there is a "reportable incident". I know I have had to pull up and go around because some out of towner decided that he did not have to obey ATC and hold short of the active, even after being told to HOLD SHORT and STOP. Lucky for me I heard this problem developing and saw it happening. No big deal right? BUT what happens when you have an incident like this with someone who does not have a solid command of the language and they fly together?

This does not stop with students either! I know a few buddies and I have heard it myself; large commercial operations flying heavies into YVR are almost as bad! One particular incident involving Air China a few months ago sticks out in my head. The pilots was told right turn 220 (for the intercept on 26L. The pilot replied....cleared left turn 220. And it when back and forth for 20 seconds or so until the Approach controller finally said "Air China ??? your other right." Pretty funny really but with safety in mind...not so much.

I read somewhere, I think perhaps in the ICAO newsletter, about mandatory training by 2009 for all no English speaking flight crews. Something about a LPI test!

Any thoughts?

TC Guy · Post by **TC Guy** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 10:20 pm

There is going to be a mandatory language proficiency rating on all Canadian licences (meeting the ICAO standards) by (the last time I heard) March, 2008.

This means that in order to hold a License in Canada, you require an assessment, and must meet a standard. Interestingly enough, this does not apply to Student Pilots or Recreational Pilots (they are a permit, not a license).

Current Canadian pilots are/will be assessed based upon certain standards -- so most will not be required to take the test.

I (personally) am hoping this will help.

-Guy

Navajo-dude · Post by **Navajo-dude** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 10:29 pm

可能有人请翻译这个线程成中文请。

我不明白什么是正说的是英语。中国是该选择的语言，在航空现在。

North Shore · Post by **North Shore** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 11:15 pm

????????????????

??????????????????????????????

Which means, presumably, something along the lines of Captain Canuck, go fruk yourself?!

Edited to add: Apparently not - my handy translator came up with this:

"Possibly some people please translate this line regulation to become
Chinese to invite.

I did not understand any is saying is English. China is this selection"

Which, of course, makes everything crystal clear..

bmc · Post by **bmc** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 5:19 am

I live beneath the busiest ATC intersection in Europe: between Geneva and Lausanne. Sched commercial and private traffic from everywhere. No shower of aircraft parts in the backyard recently.

I guess Canada is different.

bmc · Post by **bmc** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 7:19 am

clunckdriver wrote:BMC, wasnt it SwissControll who managed to arange a mid air not so long ago?lots of folks killed if I remember.

I'm struggling to understand the point you're making. What did it have to do with language?

Alex YCV · Post by **Alex YCV** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 7:24 am

Navajo-dude wrote:可能有人请翻译这个线程成中文请。

我不明白什么是正说的是英语。中国是该选择的语言，在航空现在。

我们能全部经营用中文。那对大家会是容易。

bmc · Post by **bmc** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 7:34 am

大家愛喜劇演員

Alex YCV · Post by **Alex YCV** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 9:40 am

這是真實的

MichaelP · Post by **MichaelP** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 10:37 am

The was a time when all the students did their groundschool in English.
This proved too difficult and so they went to Chinese for G/S

The problem was getting enough students out the door and into the airlines and English deficiency was causing delay...

I am planning to use the classroom here (CZBB) for ESL for pilots training.
If anyone is interested contact me and we'll make arrangements.
I will employ an ESL teacher.

moocow · Post by **moocow** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 1:16 pm

Let's assume for a minute that those pilots have passed written & oral exams. The problem is that they have yet to get used to the way and speed which native speakers speak because some of them never, ever practice using it on a daily basis. Here's one advise I have for those fresh ESL type pilots at CZBB, SPEAK SLOWLY. I can't count how many time I would sit and wait to get on the radio with ground and hear nothing but garbles over the radio. I have been in Canada for 15 years and I still speak with a bit of accent, and I know I need to speak slowly over the radio.

A more dangerous assumption is that they are simply going by phrase memorization. This may be highly probable since it have been observed that many can understand standard technical phrase but once the controllers start using regular/normal English, these pilots starts to get confused. Also, don't forget fatigue & situation fulfillment can lead to misunderstanding instructions.

Here's a clip from the ICAO website regarding language proficiency.

In which languages does a licence holder need to demonstrate proficiency?

Amendment 164 to Annex 1 has introduced strengthened language proficiency requirements for flight crew members and air traffic controllers. The language proficiency requirements apply to any language used for radiotelephony communications in international operations. Therefore, pilots on international flights shall demonstrate language proficiency in either English or the language used by the station on the ground. Controllers working on stations serving designated airports and routes used by international air services shall demonstrate language proficiency in English as well as in any other language(s) used by the station on the ground.

For more information, please refer to Annex 1, Chapter 1, paragraph 1.2.9 and Attachment to Annex 1, and also to Annex 10, Volume II, Chapter 5. Please, also refer to the FAQ "Guidance on the evaluation of language proficiency".

Are all members of the flight crew required to meet the language proficiency requirements?

All pilots shall meet the language proficiency requirements when they fly internationally. The provisions contained in Annex 10 (Chapter 5, former paragraphs 5.2.1.2.3 and 5.2.1.2.4), which allowed the use of interpreters, have been withdrawn.

Basically, this rule will not help since these pilots are technically not operating internationally out of CZBB or any other training bases. The only way to solve is that TC force everyone, even native speakers, to pass the language exam before issuing the student pilot permit. However, this may be viewed as another government cash grab unless they simply use the LPI test instead of making one of their own.

MichaelP: your effects are commendable, however, you must follow clunck's NATO example. As a former ESL person, I can tell you for a fact that if ESL students don't practice and force to use it on a daily basis, they will never ever be proficient at it. I knew a girl that also came from HK in 91 as Gr 4 and by the time we got to Gr 8, she was still in ESL while I'm not. The key difference was that I chose to hang out with native speakers and adapt while she didn't. As for your example of Chinese G/S, did they just switch the text books to Chinese or using a Chinese G/S instructor as well?

niss · Post by **niss** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 1:47 pm

אני מדעבר עיברית

MichaelP · Post by **MichaelP** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 2:18 pm

MichaelP: your effects are commendable, however, you must follow clunck's NATO example. As a former ESL person, I can tell you for a fact that if ESL students don't practice and force to use it on a daily basis, they will never ever be proficient at it.

Don't misunderstand me, I was not responsible for the students being put into Chinese language groundschool.
Like all of my non-Chinese peers I disagreed with it.

It was a time of desperate measures....

I agree with you.

A Japanese woman I know learned to fly in the Okanagan... She deliberately went there knowing there would be no Japanese instructors and so she would be forced to learn in English.
You can not fault her English these days, she is very proficient even though she has the local colonial accent.

Navajo-dude · Post by **Navajo-dude** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 3:13 pm

多伦多枫叶并未获得斯坦利杯自猫司机在尿布。

Walker · Post by **Walker** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 3:27 pm

North Shore · Post by **North Shore** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 5:27 pm

Walker: Klingon??

Alex YCV · Post by **Alex YCV** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 6:30 pm

Walker wrote:

"I believe that we do not need to limit these suffixes now"

Hmmm.

oldtimer · Post by **oldtimer** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 7:04 pm

I hear many Asian airlines coming into YVR and for the most part, their English is quite good but their UNDERSTANDING of the English language is sometimes very poor.
A friend of mine who was in ATC says it is now standard practice to not give any clearance to some airlines if misinterpetation could cause a conflict. I have heard ATC say" Dynasty XXX turn heading 290". Reply is "Dynasty xxx descending to 290" or vice versa. Attempting to correct the misunderstanding can create a real mess.
I heard ATC call an Asian airline to turn to heading 120 for spacng with traffic. Reply; How you spell SPACING"
I was enroute from Edmonton to Wininpeg one night and ATC held me west of Saskatoon until an Aeroflot airplane landed. ATC said "they did not know what this GENTLEMAN was going to do" so for safety sake, they evacuated the airspace (me and one other).
I have heard transcripts of American ATC dealing with a Mexican pilot and no one had a clue what the guy was saying.
I was doing some flight training in a King Air 200 out of Mirabelle P.Q. with bilingual pilots and I was amazed at how both the pilots and ATC could switch back and forth between French and English (without an major accent)
Can anyone who is fluently bilingual tell me if this is easy to do or is it a skill developed with practice. Can you carry on a conversation with another bilingual person in both languages or is it easier to stick with one language
I only speak 2 languages. English and profane.

2R · Post by 2R » Thu Nov 01, 2007 12:02 am

CZBB is quite close to US airspace at Point Roberts.And not that far from some sensitive US military installations.
The first batch that gets lost over a certain area will get the instructor who signed them off put in jail in gitmo

Walker · Post by **Walker** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 12:37 am

Alex YCV wrote:
Walker wrote:
"I believe that we do not need to limit these suffixes now"

Hmmm.

I figured someone on here would be clever enough to figure that out, one way or the other

At the very least I was betting Haz had a dictionary,

twotter · Post by **twotter** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 1:40 am

niss wrote:אני מדעבר עיברית

Is there a point to this?

trancemania · Post by **trancemania** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 5:22 am

Truth is:Money comes first!!

I fly in quebec.

95% of the time I have no clue what been said on 126.7

Until something is done, if I want to be safe I have to learn french.

I am a FIRM believer that im responsible for myself.I know what could be a possible danger to me.

Having said that,I probably wont learn french.So if anything happens to me.......who's fault is it?

Id blame myself.

niss · Post by **niss** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 6:00 am

twotter wrote:
niss wrote:אני מדעבר עיברית
Is there a point to this?

What? People can write in Chinese and Klingon and I cant write in Hebrew?

What is the point of anything Twotter? Me? You? Life?

At the end of the day we are all trapped on a huge spinning ball that is infinitely tiny.

PROFOUND!

CFMartin · Post by **CFMartin** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 6:14 am

Oldtimer: I am from french-canadian origins, and currently have to switch from one to another at work and in life in general where I live.

I have come to not even notice the difference, and to be honest, couldn't really tell you if the conversation I have had with such and such was held in French or English...

Rudder Bug · Post by **Rudder Bug** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 6:44 am

Quand je volais au Chili et au Pérou, mes notions d'espagnol m'ont facilité la vie.

Mandatory Language Training for International Students

Mandatory Language Training for International Students

switching