Flapless, emerg landing-what to tell pax

[hamstandard]

A couple of years ago a friend of mine was flying on a 737 NG going into Calgary. On final with the flaps still up they went around. The pilots said that there was traffic on the runway. They later did a flapless landing.
Approximately 2 hours ago I was a pax on a CRJ from ATL to YOW. I saw that we were coming in for 25. A few minutes later I noticed we were over on the Quebec side at about 4000 feet in level flight. Having read about all kinds of flapless landings in CRJ's on the TSB daily notifications, I immediately figured that this was the problem. We circled around for a while as I hoped tht we were not on no alternate IFR fuel. I was in row 4 and didn't see the F/A talk to the flight deck but I spent a lot of time looking out the window. Straining to see the aft part of the wing I could see the aileron and I think it was aligned with the trailing edge flap.
We joined a wide right downwind for the 10,000' long runway 32. The gear was extended at this time and we flew a long base leg and a long final leg. It was definitely noticeable that we were in a nose up attitude unlike the normal nosedown approach in a CRJ. On short final the higher speed was definitely noticeable. We floated and floated touching down well north of Charlie taxiway. That is halfway down the runway. While the braking didn't feel that strong(we were not leaning forward), it sounded quite loud almost all the way up to our exit point , the very last taxiwat(taxiway Lima). Emergency vehicles were standing by. We taxied to the gate. I didn't notice any pax talking about the emergency vehicles and wondered if anyone had noticed.
At no time were the pax advised of anything unusual. I told the F/A as I left "I hope they told you in the air that this would be an emergency landing because I knew". I think he said "I didn't" but it may have been "I did".
At the baggage belt there was a couple of people talking about the arrival and had asked the F/A about the flying around in the Ottawa area. The F/A had said that we were in a hold(11:30 at night). Also they had noticed the emergency vehicles. The pilots walked by me outside and were telling their driver who met them that they did an emergency landing.

So do you tell your pax on a jet type aircraft if you are doing a flapless/emergency landing? I thought that was fairly standard. Or do you hope no one will notice and therefore not be worried.

[Galaxy]

A flapless landing is not an emergency landing. By telling the pax there is a problem with the airplane would frighten them alot more than just doing a couple turns and landing on the longer runway. Why frighten them???

[Always Moving]

I though an emergency is when you need priority handling!

I would not even considered a engine out an emergency, until the other one flames out!

[C-FABH]

If the fire trucks are chasing after you down the runway and following you to the gate, I'd like to think it would be considered an emergency.

But that's just me.

Heard same stories on BWIA back when they used to operate the Tristar to YYZ, the pax were never told anything if the flaps failed.

[untucked]

I'm sure the trucks were called in case this irregularity became an emergency (i.e going off the end of the runway). As fast as the flapless Vref might be on the RJ, this is what training is for and why a well trained crew would not need to declare an emergency. I could see briefing the FA on an abnormal landing in this case (heightened alertness), but letting the passengers know is unnecessary. Like you said; you landed, taxied to the gate and went home.

[Speedbird Junior]

Happened to me when I was an FA more than once. No emergency or passenger briefing necessary! Relates of course to operational status of other systems and runway LDA, landing weight, etc etc. One flapless landing was due to loss of no 1 hydraulics system on a 757 and still no need to brief pax. As they say, there's no point causing a stir unless absolutely necessary.

Flap disagree / flap fail is not necessarily an emergency. QRH is bible!

[Liquid Charlie]

very simple -- passengers must be advised (even in a precautionary situation full blown emergency cabin is preped anyway)-- and preferably the captain doing the PA - the F/A would(should) have been advised and briefed - the captain is hanging his ass out there if there was a problem on landing -- proper cabin briefings are always part of SOP's -- as is a crew debriefing after an event - nothing worse than being blind sided in a line report because a flight attendant was left out of the loop.

[flyinhigh]

As it is not an emergency, especially with a 10K foot runway I would let passengers know whats going on, especially if you got a couple fire trucks chasing you down the runway.

It may not be necessary to tell them, but worse case scenario. You due screw up, don't tell anyone and you go off the end of the runway.

ie. In this case, they touched down at Charlie, thats ALONG way down that runway.

So now here you are down off the runway and your passengers find out why?
TSB comes in and finds out no briefings were made. mmmm there a situtation I don't want to be in. also
You don't think that pax's are going to be pissed off and coming after you in the end.

Cover your ass, so what if you have to do more paper work.

[MUSKEG]

Come on people this is not an emergency situation. Is it an abnormal, yes but the less your passengers know about what is going on the better. If you told them someone would go running to the media and blow it way out of proportion. (We could have got killed or even worse, and all I could think was aunt Mable has my casorol dish). Tell the backend absolutely but thats it. Passengers should be told only what is absolutely necessary.

[MichaelP]

One wonders about the multi crew pilot licence holders to be trained in the near future, how would they cope?

With the set up in our DA20-C1 the flapless landing is an interesting exercise... and now they want us to avoid less than 1400 RPM in flight because three aeroplanes have had their engines stop.
(We're getting the older fuel injection system fitted and I hope this sorts it out).

Passenger briefing is very important, and it's a 'First Things Learned' thing.
I see in the Flight Test Notes "Ace Your Flight Test!" the procedure for a Precautionary Landing is very different to the way I teach it.

I change the sequence to the following:

Slow down and pick your field.

Call FSS or someone right now! Tell them what you are planning... Is this landing in a strip? Are we landing in a remote area? Are we landing in a dicey situation because that's all we have?
Consider Pan or Mayday.

Brief your passenger(s)

Fly the procedure.

In the Flight Test Notes it suggests doing the low pass inspection and then calling FSS and briefing the passenger downwind for the last circuit!

I tell my student to call FSS first; you have probably the most height and most range and if the weather is getting worse that final downwind might be at a much lower height!

What is a passenger going to think when you start buzzing a field?
"Has my pilot gone mad?"
Put the passengers in the picture! Do it now.

With the above out of the way we can now concentrate on the procedure.

[jackrabbit]

I would absolutely tell them what is going on. No sense in lying to them...they know you overshot, they know your circling, chances are they are gong to see the vehicles, and, if they are any kind of regular fliers, some will probably notice the flaps up. Tell me, what do you have to gain by not saying anything. This type of siuation has happened to me a couple times in the past. I see no advantage to keeping quiet. The more we communicate the less they can assume and make up. A quick, "hey folks, as you can see we overshot due to the fact our flaps did not extend. We just circled to run through our checklist and readjusted our approach speeds for a normal landing without flaps. Thanks for your patience. " In my experience anyway, this goes a long way for customer service and actually will put pax at ease.

Also...I apologize if sarcasm was your goal but, if you don't consider an engine out an emergency Always Moving, could you lease let me know which company you work for so I know who not to fly with. Thanks.

[linecrew]

You can see the extra flying that was done at the end of the flight.

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/ASQ569

[Liquid Charlie]

Come on people this is not an emergency situation. Is it an abnormal, yes but the less your passengers know about what is going on the better. If you told them someone would go running to the media and blow it way out of proportion. (We could have got killed or even worse, and all I could think was aunt Mable has my casorol dish). Tell the backend absolutely but thats it. Passengers should be told only what is absolutely necessary.

First -- the media already knows about it as soon as you transmitted the problem to ATC -- and as stated and what I implied it's "cover your ass" -- and depending on aircraft type and wx conditions flapless can go from from abnormal to emergency in short order -- I can't agree with the above -- we are obligated to keep everyone in the loop -

[Speedbird Junior]

First -- the media already knows about it as soon as you transmitted the problem to ATC -- and as stated and what I implied it's "cover your ass" -- and depending on aircraft type and wx conditions flapless can go from from abnormal to emergency in short order -- I can't agree with the above -- we are obligated to keep everyone in the loop -

Unless you declare a PAN or a MAYDAY, ATC will give you normal handling apart from asking the nature of your missed and your intentions. They can alert the airport emergency services themselves if they so feel the need, but why would they go spewing to the press or media?

A minor flap problem can escalate to an emergency if you a) your judgement of the given set of elements to the situation are poor and b) you fail to follow SOPs or the QRH. If its +RA with low vis and ceiling and you have lost half your hydraulics and high lift devices, then sure you're going to declare an emergency. If your landing distance required is increased within a safe boundary to LDA without flaps but other devices (i.e. thrust reversers and spoilers) operational and the runway condition is dry etc, then why tell the passengers? Have you ever seen the potential hysteria that can be created when you tell them you have a "problem" with something.

[xsbank]

I absolutely agree with Liquid Charlie for all the reasons he has stated.

If you have trouble communicating to the cabin that you have an abnormal problem requiring a 'different' landing, without causing a panic, then I suggest you get some help.

Pan and Mayday are under-used; not using them at the appropriate time can add to your difficulties. Having the trucks out to watch you land gives the fire guys an excuse to zoom around a bit - I think its a good thing.

I think the media just uses scanners.

For those of you who require reminding:

"Mayday"

An expression meaning "I am in distress." It is the international radiotelephony distress signal. Preferably spoken three times, it indicates imminent and grave danger and means that immediate assistance is requested.

PAN"

The international radiotelephony urgency signal. Preferably spoken three times, it indicates a condition that concerns the safety of an aircraft or another vehicle, or of some person on board or within sight, but that does not require immediate assistance.

[Rubberbiscuit]

I am not going to say what they should have done, as I was not there and do not have all the facts regarding the abovementioned scenario. There are many factors. A/C type, stopping distance required, weather, runway conditions, pilot experience even, and once you get into bigger A/C weight will make a big difference as well. Correct me if I am wrong, but I am pretty sure a flapfailure is considered a flight control problem, and a flight control problem according to TC constitutes an emergency. Well......I choose to take that with a grain of salt. That said I think the FAs deserve a briefing by the Captain and the Pax deserve a proffessional PA announcement. That way your a$$ is covered in the unlikely event everything does not go like clockwork and/or Mr. Murphy decides to rear his ugly head.

My 2 cents.

[justplanecrazy]

For those of you who require reminding:

"Mayday"

An expression meaning "I am in distress." It is the international radiotelephony distress signal. Preferably spoken three times, it indicates imminent and grave danger and means that immediate assistance is requested.

PAN"

The international radiotelephony urgency signal. Preferably spoken three times, it indicates a condition that concerns the safety of an aircraft or another vehicle, or of some person on board or within sight, but that does not require immediate assistance.

XSbank are you suggesting that the pilot that's 20nm back and can't get the first notch of flaps out, should start yelling pan pan??? You have to take these things into context. Is it important that you stop all ATC communications and have them handle your situation immediately? If so then by all means, say pan,pan or mayday. But at the moment you realise that the flaps are U/S, simply continuing the approach until you have time to tell arrival that you have an issue with your flaps and need an area to go work it out, is not a mistake. I agree, pilots are way too hesitant to ask for help, especially in pulling the trucks out. But really, having a bad gear indication or flap issue doesn't require immediate ATC assistance and simply stating that you need to go around and why is perfectly fine.

Here's a question for all you airline guys... do you get charged everytime we call out the AFF? Is it a cost saving thing to tell us you have an issue but request the trucks not come out, or is there a follow up investigation, or are you just trying to avoid bad media? I've seen a number of situations including flapless approaches, where the pilot informs us of the problem and asks that the trucks not be called out. I always call them and tell them your request and they say if we know we have to go. I remember one flapless approach touching down halfway down the runway while the AFF pretended to be hiding, at the pilots request. I think Air France showed us its a matter of seconds to change from miracle to disaster, why not have them at the ready???

[29chev]

As it turns out I did one this summer!
After breaking off the app.and running some check lists(and talking to Company,Maint. etc.) we declared a Pan Pan called out the "safty " trucks briefed the incharge/cabin crew and then briefed the pax's, who, by then knew very well that something was wrong....why would you not take every precation to have all affected people preped. and ready....that doesn't mean you scare the crap out of them , you tell the truth in a comforting kinda way . We landed got inspected on the runnway to check for hot brakes and taxied to the gate. after we parked I said goodbye to every pax myself to see if everyone of them was OK and calm. Many mentioned it was nice to be kept informed. I think the truth is almost always better than what they would come up with on their own.
After that I got the crew together and made sure they were all ok and to see if they had any questions.

All in all "just like the sim"
like RBiscuit says CYA
29chev

[Commonwealth]

My philosophy here is that passengers are not stupid. When it is safe to do so, let them know what's going on. Let them know what is going to be happening, so they can mentally prepare themselves. If a person knows the touch down is going to be faster than normal and the emergency vehicles are waiting for them, then the entire flap failure will be operations normal in their eyes. It is sort of like a horror movie, what you don't know or what you can't see is what scares you. This also communicates to the passengers that yes, you are a competent pilot and you hold their safety in the highest regard.

[bombardierfixer]

there is a reason why they have such huge brake packs!!! The RJ no flaps is gonna dog that aircraft untill they are gone (100-200) the flex drives are extremley vulnerable to water getting into the cores, then freezing...

[xsbank]

Justplaincrazy, yes, I do. That's what its for. You don't have to yell, you just say it. You have a load of people behind you who are depending on you and they deserve every effort you can make to ensure they're safe. Nothing annoys me more than the super-cool, Hero of The North who tries to downplay an abnormality or an emergency and assumes he has all it takes in the cockpit to solve the problem.

Like that moron talked about above who has a flap problem and doesn't request the trucks? If he worked for me I would fire him (well, send him to be re-educated).

What's wrong with you people? Why take a chance of being misunderstood? Why not do EVERYTHING you can to protect your passengers? Nobody on board but you? That's ok, you can slide through that gas station or convenience store but you were being cool.

Tomorrow morning, when you're having your shower, practise saying "Pan Pan" or "Mayday Mayday" and get over it. You can't tell me you are more embarrassed to say Pan than to set fire to something and have nobody around to help?

[invertedattitude]

If the pax have to be advised of de-icing, why wouldn't they of something like this.

IMO not advising the pax is wreckless, especially if you require emergency vehicles on standby "Just in case"

Well how about "Just in case" the passengers are ready for an evacuation.

[gustind]

Flapless landings happen all the time in CRJs. They aren't a bigee anymore. Maybe in a 767 or in an A340 but CRJ....nah.

As for telling the passengers - there are some things that they need to know and some things that they don't have to know about.

[J31]

A small technicality but in the Boeing it is all but impossible end up completely flapless. With several system failures there is so much redundancy that one should be able to get some leading edge flap/slat or trailing edge flaps. I have heard that the Boeing 737 has never had a completely flapless landing.

On the other hand the RJ………………

[Liquid Charlie]

so where do you draw the line - in a true "multi-engine airplane" an emergency is not declared for a simple engine shut down and most of the people won't even realize that it has happened. Would you not advise the passengers -- I know I would -- human nature is a funny thing -- I know from talking to people that they are usually more pissed off by being kept in the dark. Think of the crew that had to deal with the landing when the nose wheel fell off and all their passengers were watching it unfold in the comfort of their seats -- they elected to keep the entertainment system turned on -- nope as stated most passengers are not stupid and they are very aware of what's going on and know when something is different from the norm. They might not understand airplanes but they will pickup on the cabin crew's "body language"