What is CAATS?

[renfley]

So what's the deal with CAATS?

I've found lot's of discussion about it's implementation, and it's problems but what exactly is it?


Where is it in use?

[Alex YCV]

Can't Anyone Arrive Too Soon?

[Braun]

Hehe, long story short it's a system that automatically sends flight plan data to other sectors, ACC's and FAA installments. It's meant to automate the passage of various information to everyone. It also passes time estimates and altitude revisions to the other sectors and ACC's. That's really a basic description maybe someone wants to go in more detail but you'll hear enough about it once you get to the ACC don't worry haha!

Canadian Automated Air Traffic System

[invertedattitude]

Most of the centres now are online.

I'm fairly certain this is public knowledge, Gander/Moncton/Winnipeg, Montreal is basically fully up and running last shift I worked anyway it was working great between centres at least.

Not sure exactly who's next, I'm guessing surround Toronto so they have to cave

CAATS once in its full "Glory" will (I mean should) have a ton of good features.

You hear a lot of guys complain about it, and I guess for low level/terminal it's been a royal pain in the backside, but from what I understand a lot of that has/is being worked out. However for us high enroute guys working flow traffic, it's fantastic as far as workload reduction.

I end up being scheduled for the regular CAATS reboots, which means reverting to backups, and while it's not manually phoneing every estimate, it still creates 3 times the workload per aircraft (estimate wise) then when CAATS is operational.

Not to mention there are several useful tools for us to use with CAATS, and several not so useful.

[FamilyGuy]

CAATS

Can't Automate Air Traffic Services.

Works "good" in the high? PLEASE!!! Don't know who you are talking to but that has not been what I've heard. 40 strips per airplane and constant "unexpected behaviours" is hardly an improvement IMHO.

Too many techno geeks these days think that computers can replace the human. Biggest problem with that is techno geek humans develop the computers and software - and they failed miserably.

[invertedattitude]

Well, considering I work in the centre that has had CAATS a lot longer than most, and one that always gets to test all the new functionality before anyone else has to go through it, then yes I'd say I'm qualified on the subject matter.

While I fully admit CAATS has some glaring issues, when it is functioning it is a major help to us.

This is an honest question since I don't know, do you work enroute?

While I can't speak for any other speciality but my own, I know that I hear from people in YYZ saying that CAATS is horrible and they haven't even used it yet!

I could go on for an hour about all the quirky foolish useless things CAATS does, but compared to the other option, I'm quite happy to work with it.

So FamilyGuy, when you have 40 airplanes on frequency would you prefer to be picking up the phone and manually transmitting aircraft information, or is that OK for a computer to do for you?

Personally I'd rather spend the time keeping airplanes apart.

[FamilyGuy]

Well, considering I work in the centre that has had CAATS a lot longer than most, and one that always gets to test all the new functionality before anyone else has to go through it, then yes I'd say I'm qualified on the subject matter.

While I fully admit CAATS has some glaring issues, when it is functioning it is a major help to us.

I could go on for an hour about all the quirky foolish useless things CAATS does, but compared to the other option, I'm quite happy to work with it.

So FamilyGuy, when you have 40 airplanes on frequency would you prefer to be picking up the phone and manually transmitting aircraft information, or is that OK for a computer to do for you?

Personally I'd rather spend the time keeping airplanes apart.

This thread is BS and the last post is BS. Nobody who knows anything directly is going to be "publically critical" and you know it. Say positive things and they will turn a blind eye - tell the nitty gritty truth at a risk.

Controllers should be focusing 100% on keeping the airplanes apart - I agree 100% - especially mine! To me that means they should NOT be fricking around with any equipement that doesn't function correctly or as expected 100% of the time. Reminds me of the DC10 that went in the FL everglades while all 3 flightcrew were dicking around with a burnt out lightbulb.

[zzjayca]

So FamilyGuy, when you have 40 airplanes on frequency would you prefer to be picking up the phone and manually transmitting aircraft information,...

In a word YES!!

With all the errors in the system, I would much rather have control over the flight data passing then trust it to CAATS. Even though management would never admit it, CAATS has caused or contributed to many OI's.

From your past posts, I'm guessing you weren't checked out before CAATS (or at least didn't work for long without it). I worked for ten years without CAATS and I'd go back to the old system in a heartbeat. I work high level enroute and I can't stand the system, you should hear what the low level sectors say about it.

Unfortunately, all of this discussion is moot. Management has determined that CAATS will be installed in all of Canada's centers come hell or high water. This is a major part of the problem. They are forcing it down our throats regardless of our comments or criticisms of the system.

Don't get me wrong, the concept of having automated flight data distribution is a good one. However, CAATS isn't the system to do it. What we need is to either start from scratch and create a whole new system in an up to date programming language (not the antiquated bandaided crap that CAATS currently uses for code), or buy something off the shelf that already has a proven track record. I'd suggest we buy the FAA's new system. If it can handle the FAA's traffic levels, it could handle anything our airspace could throw at it. Also, this would create commonality between us and the FAA and eliminate the problems we have with compatibility issues.

One of the best comments I've heard about CAATS is comparing it to a trainee. If a trainee can only do the job 90% of the time they don't check out. I only wish CAATS was performing at 90%

[Heighwood Jablowme]

Well, considering I work in the centre that has had CAATS a lot longer than most, and one that always gets to test all the new functionality before anyone else has to go through it, then yes I'd say I'm qualified on the subject matter.

Yeah. So how's the Graphic Route Mod tool working out for you? Don't blow away important flight plan information now with a "Direct To". Round robin training flights? Composite Flight plans. IFR canceling but wanting to keep alerting open?

I could go on for an hour about all the quirky foolish useless things CAATS does, but compared to the other option, I'm quite happy to work with it.

Why don't you compare it to other systems out there. A profile to disseminate flight data based on a wind model that could be up to 6 hours old and a filed airspeed. Yeah right. The system was described to a foreign controller and he laughed his ass off and asked "you actually work with that crap?".

So FamilyGuy, when you have 40 airplanes on frequency would you prefer to be picking up the phone and manually transmitting aircraft information, or is that OK for a computer to do for you?

That's some funny shit. How many "CAATS OIs" have you seen brushed under the carpet due to crap times or a screwy profile.

Personally I'd rather spend the time keeping airplanes apart.

Go talk to your Terminal and Low brethren. Ask them how much their workload has increased in "Feeding the CAATS".

[invertedattitude]

As I said before I was talking about High enroute only, and I did acknowledge that low/terminal have more problems with the system than us for the reasons you stated.

The GRM to me is a "neat" tool, and will be handy when it comes into play, but for my speciality it won't be much use, and the Direct To function is just coming usable for us anyway with the latest upgrade.

I apologize if you didn't understand I was speaking my own experience of high enroute, and I know low/terminal have their own problems that we simply don't see in high.

Hence why I said for high level enroute here CAATS works quite well, although it has a few annoying quirks and problems we have to work around.


Another thing, who uses the CAATS flight profile to base separation anyway? Nobody, or at least they shouldn't be, it's where the system "thinks" the airplane should be, not always where it actually is.

If you're running procedural sectors we dont' use CAATS estimates as control estimates anyway, we have to calculate a time and manually pass it. Large bends in the jetstream often cause the CAATS times to fluctuate quite a bit (large multiple changes in groundspeed over a period of time)

The only time I use a CAATS profile time is just as a reference, never as a basis for separation, same as the CAATS route profile. I can't imagine why anyone would need, and/or want to use those times/lines for anything but a reference.


I want to clarify something here before we go too much further, I don't "love" CAATS anymore than the next guy, it has its problems, some of them quite frustrating, especially with current procedures.

However we're going to be using CAATS for a long time to come, so we'd all better get used to working with it instead of against it, and try and solve some of the problems rather than just dismissing the entire system as a failure.

[Heighwood Jablowme]

The GRM to me is a "neat" tool, and will be handy when it comes into play, but for my speciality it won't be much use

Neat for who? Why isn't "in play" now?

and the Direct To function is just coming usable for us anyway with the latest upgrade.

Didn't you say previously "Well, considering I work in the centre that has had CAATS a lot longer than most, and one that always gets to test all the new functionality before anyone else has to go through it, then yes I'd say I'm qualified on the subject matter". That function is being used already in an ACC west of you.

Another thing, who uses the CAATS flight profile to base separation anyway? Nobody, or at least they shouldn't be, it's where the system "thinks" the airplane should be, not always where it actually is.

If you're running procedural sectors we dont' use CAATS estimates as control estimates anyway, we have to calculate a time and manually pass it. Large bends in the jetstream often cause the CAATS times to fluctuate quite a bit (large multiple changes in groundspeed over a period of time)

Wow. Why have it at all then? Doesn't strip production VSPs depend upon accurate times?

I want to clarify something here before we go too much further, I don't "love" CAATS anymore than the next guy, it has its problems, some of them quite frustrating, especially with current procedures.

Didn't you say elsewhere

but compared to the other option, I'm quite happy to work with it.

Shit. You should be a politician.

[invertedattitude]

Alright, it's quite obvious you have a hate on for CAATS.

Read my statements again if you would, and don't argue with me for your personal issues, I'm not disagreeing with you on CAATS issues and problems.

I still stick by my original statement that CAATS is a help for my specialty.

Yes the VSP's for strip printing rely on an accurate time, but if another center gets a strip 25 min or 15 min prior doesn't really matter much so long as he's radar identified.

If radar service was lost, the CAATS estimate doesn't mean squat anyway and we'd have to forward manual controller estimates anyway.

[Heighwood Jablowme]

I don't need to go back and read your statements. I am not arguing with you regarding personal issues. It's perfectly clear you're making uninformed, sweeping statements regarding the system which I suppose is to be expected of someone who doesn't know any better. Now you are being made to justify your statements, you've gone from

However for us high enroute guys working flow traffic, it's fantastic as far as workload reduction.

That is great. Too bad for terminal and lows. Do you really have to as why YYZ are not looking forward to it?

Hence why I said for high level enroute here CAATS works quite well, although it has a few annoying quirks and problems we have to work around.

I'm glad you used the phrase "work around". How many are there now?

I still stick by my original statement that CAATS is a help for my specialty.

So, you've gone from speaking for all of high enroute to your specialty. I would be very interested in hearing from others in your specialty.

[invertedattitude]

I'm sure you'd get a myriad of responses too.

I'm having trouble understanding why you're taking this conversation personal.

I also apologize if I didn't come across clearly that I was speaking of my high enroute specialty only, although a "Center west of us" as you say, their high controllers have told us they think it's working quite well also since their latest implementation

While I'm sure any user of CAATS high or low, my specialty or others would have many specific complaints (and that includes myself), most of them IMO anyway in my specialty don't hate it quite as much, or at least don't say they hate quite as much as many of those people who have never even used the system yet!

Look, I can go on for hours about how annoying it is when it prints me 5 strips on every non-radar inbound aircraft, especially when you're working a track over that airspace the paper flow is incredible, and can turn a one man sector into a 2 man just to handle the overflow of extra strips, which is the exact opposite of what CAATS was designed for.

If we can move this away from your personal angst against CAATS and into an actual discussion maybe we'd get somewhere, if not that's fine as well.

I haven't met anyone who loves CAATS, everyone has their own problems with it, my specialty does, and so does everybody else. Some are worse than others, but as I said before we're stuck with it now, it's not going to leave, and within a couple of years everyone will be using it, like it or not. So in my opinion the best thing any of us can do is try and work with it and get the problems fixed.

I'm not quite sure what the goal is behind constantly moaning about how horrible it is, it's never going to change the fact that it's here, and for the rest of the country it's coming.

I'll ask one last time to curb the personal attacks so we can either drop the subject or have an actual discussion about it.

I also want to add that I bow to the experience of those who have been here a lot longer than myself, have seen things turn south a lot more times than me.

[FamilyGuy]

I'm sure you'd get a myriad of responses too.

...although a "Center west of us" as you say, their high controllers have told us they think it's working quite well also since their latest implementation

TOTAL BS!

[invertedattitude]

I'm sure you'd get a myriad of responses too.

...although a "Center west of us" as you say, their high controllers have told us they think it's working quite well also since their latest implementation

TOTAL BS!

.... from the mouths of the controllers themselves man, I'm not making this crap up, one specific controller since I only had one very brief hotline conversation about it.

I guess every single other controller hates it? If BS is information right from a horses mouth then I don't know where someone should get their information.

[zzjayca]

I'm sure you'd get a myriad of responses too.

...although a "Center west of us" as you say, their high controllers have told us they think it's working quite well also since their latest implementation

TOTAL BS!

.... from the mouths of the controllers themselves man, I'm not making this crap up, one specific controller since I only had one very brief hotline conversation about it.

I guess every single other controller hates it? If BS is information right from a horses mouth then I don't know where someone should get their information.

Maybe you should reread my post farther up the page. As I said, I can't stand it and I work high level airspace in a center west of you!!

How's that for from the mouths of the controllers' themselves?

[Jerricho]

.................

[FamilyGuy]

Well, considering I work in the centre that has had CAATS a lot longer than most, and one that always gets to test all the new functionality before anyone else has to go through it, then yes I'd say I'm qualified on the subject matter.

Okay, now I'm confused. Do you work in YUL or YQM?

If you work in YQM HOW IN THE HELL DO YOU TALK TO YWG ON A HOTLINE???

I call bullshit to your posts and everything you say. As Jerricho has pointed out - 1 year ago you knew nothing. If you work in YUL you've had what - 20 days of ORD?

Sound more and more like a manager mole everyday there buddy.

[invertedattitude]

TOTAL BS!

.... from the mouths of the controllers themselves man, I'm not making this crap up, one specific controller since I only had one very brief hotline conversation about it.

I guess every single other controller hates it? If BS is information right from a horses mouth then I don't know where someone should get their information.

Maybe you should reread my post farther up the page. As I said, I can't stand it and I work high level airspace in a center west of you!!

How's that for from the mouths of the controllers' themselves?

All I can say is that at least one controller in your center doesn't agree with you, not saying CAATS is working good there, as I have not seen it myself, but one of your co-workers thinks it's working good. Never said it was for the whole center!

[invertedattitude]

Sound more and more like a manager mole everyday there buddy.

I don't work in YUL, so maybe that clears up some of your misconceptions, not sure where you ever got the idea I worked in YUL, never said I did.

Now since you considered me working in YUL, maybe some of my previous posts would make more sense to you?


FamilyGuy you seriously need to relax man, my questions in the other thread were about low level and the problems they were having at that time, considering I work high level I don't think I would be expected to know what they were dealing with now would I?

Especially considering it's not even the same centre I work at!

Manager mole, obviously you haven't read through my posts about the training portion

[FamilyGuy]

Answer this then - what controllers "west of you"? YUL? They've had it for 20 days - nice. One hotline call from 200+ guys and you want to make a public statement!!!

You need to seriously stop make making grand sweeping statements and get your head out of a smelly place. From what I've heard YQM isn't even using it the way it was supposed to be used - no wonder "you like it".



Well, considering I work in the centre that has had CAATS a lot longer than most, and one that always gets to test all the new functionality before anyone else has to go through it, then yes I'd say I'm qualified on the subject matter.

That is called "tail coating".

[kevenv]

From what I've heard YQM isn't even using it the way it was supposed to be used...

Care to elaborate? If I am not mistaken, CAATS is supposed to pass estimates and data between sectors/centers. Is Moncton not using it for this?

[invertedattitude]

Answer this then - what controllers "west of you"? YUL? They've had it for 20 days - nice. One hotline call from 200+ guys and you want to make a public statement!!!

You need to seriously stop make making grand sweeping statements and get your head out of a smelly place. From what I've heard YQM isn't even using it the way it was supposed to be used - no wonder "you like it".



Well, considering I work in the centre that has had CAATS a lot longer than most, and one that always gets to test all the new functionality before anyone else has to go through it, then yes I'd say I'm qualified on the subject matter.

That is called "tail coating". You don't know shit do you? You're a recently checked out trainee that thinks all shit smells like pot-porri...

My only response to this post is, first off, pot kettle black with your statement about YQM, and secondly very professional way of presenting yourself I must say.

It's glaringly obvious you're using small points of peoples posts and using those specific parts to support your arguments while ignoring the parts that don't line up with your tenacious charges.

How many times did I say there was many things about CAATS I don't like, that do not work right?

If you're getting this stressed out over an internet discussion forum well I'm sorry.

I don't think I understand your "one hotline call from 200+ guys" if you could clarify that, and yes it was someone from YUL who told me if I remember correctly the wording "Yea it's working pretty good I gotta say for now"

Regarding YQM using CAATS "The way they're supposed to" well I'd be curious to hear exactly what you mean by that? As kevenv said, estimates are being sent and recieved, as well as revised information as CAATS is intended to be used. I would seriously be interested to know where you came up with your own "broad sweeping statement"

[Heighwood Jablowme]

Have you worked out why people are reacting to your posts this way invertedattitude? You think it's personal. It is not personal. Go right back to your first post.

You hear a lot of guys complain about it, and I guess for low level/terminal it's been a royal pain in the backside, but from what I understand a lot of that has/is being worked out. However for us high enroute guys working flow traffic, it's fantastic as far as workload reduction.

and

CAATS once in its full "Glory" will (I mean should) have a ton of good features.

You posted an opinion. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. People with other opinions refute your sweeping generalization and substantiate with reasons.

You then post this

While I can't speak for any other speciality but my own, I know that I hear from people in YYZ saying that CAATS is horrible and they haven't even used it yet!

Maybe that is because in your 'speciality' (sic) of "Hi! How's the ride? Bye!" you will never have the joy of using all those "ton of good features".

This however

It's glaringly obvious you're using small points of peoples posts and using those specific parts to support your arguments while ignoring the parts that don't line up with your tenacious charges.

is downright crap. Someone called bullshit on you, you didn't like it and tried to worm out of it and save face. How many co-workers from your ACC are reading what you post and roll their eyes?