Makings of an Aerobat Pilot

[Radical.Edward]

These pilots really impress me! Here are some questions I had relating to aerobatics:

What makes a good aerobatics pilot? ie. good hand-eye coordination, reflexes, experience, physical conditioning, a cool head etc...

Are they born or made, or both? Anyone can learn to fly, but can anyone become a skilled aerobatics pilot, perform in airshows?

Must aerobatics training be started early in life to excel?
Looking at their profiles I noticed that the Red Bull air racers obtained their licences relatively young and started aerobatics training soon after, do they all have rich parents or something (excluding the military trained racers)?

[nacho]

http://www.waynehandley.com/

Wayne started when he was 44...

Among other things you will need money, lots of it.

[Hedley]

Why don't you do 5 or 10 hours of aerobatics in a Super D
and find out for yourself? Learn how to roll, loop, hhead,
1/2 cu-8 and most of all, how to unspin. These are called
"Sportsman" maneuvers, for the contest category that you
will find them in.

Some people have problems with motion sickness when
they get upside down, others don't. You build tolerance
for it.

Also, you have to learn how to tolerate postive and negative
G. The former is just like weightlifting, the latter is really
weird.

It takes a lot of practice, doing aerobatics at high altitude,
before you can safely do them at the surface. You'd better
have 100% confidence in your ability to precisely control
your exit altitude, or you will die.

Aerobatics is hard work, and it's very expensive. It also
attracts a lot of attention from a lot of very unpleasant
people. Just ask Bob Hoover, Jason Newburg, Melissa
Andreski, etc, etc.

Lots of people stand on the ground and say, "Oooh, pretty
airplane" and think they'd like to do that, but when they get
a taste of reality, 99.99999999% of the time they just walk
away back to their playstations.

[Big Pistons Forever]

radical.edward asked "What makes a good aerobatic pilot"

I would say it is disciplined practice. Getting good at aerobatics requires a lot of very methodical practicing. It can be very hard work and very frustrating as you work to perfect each element of every manoever.

[North Shore]

Hedley, I know of Bob Hoover's tribulations, but googling Melissa Andreski comes up with nothing, and one of the Jason Newbergs seems like a moron:http://www.tc.gc.ca/civilaviation/regse ... ewburg.htm
Links, please..

[nacho]

I bet the guy behind all the fuss is the Sgt. Good thing Newburg buggered off or he could have been tazered or shot in the back of the head

[Hedley]

Sorry, I could never spell Melissa's last name:

http://www.sportsgal.com/

She's young, thin, good-looking, athletic, and quite well-off. And
she is despised by people who are none of the above. It got
so bad, she had to move to Australia (remind you of anyone?)
to continue her flying.

Jason is a fine young aerobatic pilot and mechanic who was driven
out of Canada. IIRC he flew at the last Advanced World Aerobatic
Championships, which requires a level of skill that few Canadian
pilots will ever obtain.

He instructs on the Embry-Riddle Pitts S-2B which I am sure that
no one here knows was donated by to that school by another
Canadian, which is great for the USA, but reflects rather poorly
on Canada.

[BoostedNihilist]

.

[Hedley]

Does anyone do aerobatics purely for the fun and thrill of it?

Sure: http://www.iac.org/ is a great place to learn about
contest aerobatics.

Been looking at citabrias

There's your first mistake. A Citabria, despite the misleading name,
is about as aerobatic as a C172. From an engineering perspective,
a 172 is perhaps a better choice. That's how bad a Citabria is for
doing aerobatics. But you don't have to believe me - either read
up on the repetitive AD on the wooden wing spar, or sometime
grab a Citabria by the wingtip and give it a wiggle, and observe
the standing wave that results between the wingtip and the fuselage.

Note the much higher asking prices for Decathlons. Like
divorces, they are expensive because they are worth it. Be
sure and get either a Super D with the metal spars, or one
that has had the metal spar wing retrofit done.

Even a Decathlon isn't very aerobatic. I used to fly one,
and felt guilty every time I snap-rolled it. I had the uneasy
feeling I was leaving a trail of brass nails behind me. Sure
enough, I found out later that many places that rent Decathlons
don't allow snap rolls because of the gas tank cracking problem.

People keep saying 'you need to be rich'

This is because there are very very very few places in
Canada where you can rent an aerobatic airplane. Most
people who fly aerobatic airplanes own them. Owning
any airplane is not cheap, and aerobatic airplanes are
usually more expensive that most, and require more
maintenance, and don't last as long. If you don't believe
me, look at the published TBO's for the AEIO-360 vs
IO-360 and AEIO-540 vs IO-540.

In Canada, owning an aerobatic airplane is even less
attractive because of the short summer and loooong
winter. Many aerobatic airplanes don't have heaters,
and flying them in winter is a bit like riding a motorcycle
in winter. It is theoretically possible, but doesn't happen
very often in real life.

For example, in Canada there are perhaps 10 two-seat
Pitts in all of Canada. In the USA, there are probably
over 500.

Q.E.D.

[SeawingsUAE]

He instructs on the Embry-Riddle Pitts S-2B which I am sure that
no one here knows was donated by to that school by another
Canadian, which is great for the USA, but reflects rather poorly
on Canada.

It was Randy`s Pitts.
But how does this relect poorly on Canada? Randy was a great competitor, and a good guy. And his B went to a good cause, to be used in a teaching environment.
I guess you mean you would rather it went to a school in Canada?

But Embry actually paid for the airplane, so it could just as easily have been bought by a school in Canada, it was not. It was a sponsored loan.

Regards the number of 2 seat aerobatic aircraft in Canada vs the States, it basically comes down to Demographics, while there has never been large numbers of Aerobatic machines in Canada, at least the West coast contests are always well attended, and it is a very active group.

But the number of teaching aircraft in Canada is directly proportional to the interest shown, and to be honest there has never really been enough to support full time schools, as at best Aerobatic instruction is only an add on to an existing school.
1-5 hours of basic to spin training, vs 40-250 hours of instruction does not pay the bills!

Regards cheap fun aerobatic aircraft, agreed the Citabria is a marginal performer, although generally a benign aircraft which is a good alt of A/S. and vice versa teacher. A good bet for maximum fun to cost is the Pitts S1S. Always a few available, and it is a wonderful aircraft.

Funny thing about single vs two seat. When I owned a single seat Pitts, I always wanted to give rides, once I had a 2 Seat Pitts, I missed the S1 performance, and ended up giving waaay too many rides!
Now I have another S1.

The original question, what makes a good aerobatic pilot?
Attitude, there are many levels of Aerobatics, you can be an excellent aerobatic pilot and never progress beyond sportsman level figures, it is a matter of "openning doors"
Bottom line, before anyone starts practicing figures in the aerobatic regime, get a full spin recovery course, then the sky is basically the limit, and how "good" someone becomes is directly related to how much gas they are willing to burn, how dedicated they are to working out why something happens, and learning to control it time and time again.
Most anyone can do it, but it simply takes a level of dedication.

[Hedley]

maximum fun to cost is the Pitts S1S

Absolutely! However, there are a couple of problems with a
homebuilt, single-seat Pitts:

1) often as not, you're buying someone else's problems. This
is true of any homebuilt. You can spend a lot of money fixing
these problems. And a single-seat Pitts with problems looks
pretty much like a single-seat Pitts without problems. I know
a LOT of people who have spent at LOT of time & money
repairing single-seat Pitts that they have purchased, because
they're the first people who have ever really flown it.

2) A single-seat Pitts is not easy to land (for most people),
and if you don't learn how to unspin it, it will likely kill you.
There was another Eagle lost recently in the northeast
due to the pilot not being able to recover from a spin. You
can spend an awful lot of money in a two-seat Pitts down
in the USA, learning how to land and unspin it.

When you add up the costs of #1 and #2, a single-seat
Pitts isn't really all that cheap. It would not be unusual
to spend $20,000 on #1 and #2 AFTER the purchase, and
$40,000 is not out of the question (eg camshaft, recover).

Embry actually paid for the airplane

That's somewhat misleading. Click on this:

http://www.eaglesport.org/n260ab.htm

"The Pitts" was partially donated to the Club in the Fall of 1999 by Randy Gagne's family.

[ragbagflyer]

Sorry, I could never spell Melissa's last name:

http://www.sportsgal.com/

She's young, thin, good-looking, athletic, and quite well-off. And
she is despised by people who are none of the above.

I think I'm in love. What do you mean it got so bad though? How can somebody be driven out of her own country for being awesome?

[Hedley]

How can somebody be driven out of her own country for being awesome?

um ... I'm having difficulty answering that question without
excessive sarcasm. How old are you?

There are some people who despise people who have achieved
things in life, because it makes them feel bad about their lack of
success.

Bob Hoover and Melissa A. are clearly two victims of this
phenomena - the persecution of heroes.

There are many other victims of this. Look around you.

The australians have a wonderful phrase for this - they
call it the "cutting down of tall poppies"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tall_poppy_syndrome

This is a friend of mine. He owns an incredible airplane,
and flies it very, very well:

http://www.airshowbuzz.com/videos/view.php?v=5c09da38

I am sure that he has many envious detractors, too. If he gets
enough recognition, he may be driven out of his country, too.

[ragbagflyer]

How can somebody be driven out of her own country for being awesome?

um ... I'm having difficulty answering that question without
excessive sarcasm. How old are you?

Old enough to give all those assholes the finger and maybe young enough to be naive enough to think it will work. But if got that bad I'd definitely be fighting. If you're going to go down might as well go down swinging. Make enough noise and you never know who you'll get on your team. You'd think that people that excel like that would have a few big players in their corner.

[fougapilot]

What makes a good aerobatics pilot?

More often then non, the main difference between an OK aerobatic pilot (like me) and a World class pilot like Mike Goulian, Rob Holland and the likes is the monthly fuel bill.

If you want to be an aerobatic god, live in a 1 bed room appartment just so you can afford that Mx2 and the 5000$/month fuel bill. After 5 or 6 years of this, you MAY be asked to join Redbull air race and start to make money.

Or do like me, get yourself an old Chinese trainer for anywhere between $70k to $100k and spend $5000/year on fuel. No chances of ever being invited to join Redbull, but it's a heck of a lot of fun

F

[nacho]

I am joining Fouga on this, going to South America to spray some bugs and get the rest of the money I need for my Yak.

[Hedley]

If you want to be an aerobatic god, live in a 1 bed room appartment

Last I heard, Mike Goulian had moved out west, and lives in this little house in the middle of the desert, with nothing around it for miles. If you're a civilian, you'd think it was a bit weird, until you realize that he has a surface-level waivered box there

As Dan says, if spending a few thousand a month on gas bothers
you, you're not going to get the practice you need.

And didn't Kirby Chambliss go through 3 engines in one season?


Does anyone here know what a Venn diagram is?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venn_diagram

One circle is people with sufficient money. Another circle is people
who are willing to do the hard, unpleasant work it's going to take.

The intersection of the two circles is very slim indeed. In all of
Canada, there are but a handful - certainly less than 10 - people
in that intersection. I can name them on the fingers of one hand.

Also, the regulatory overhead is quite a burden. The better you
get, the more fierce the attacks get. For example, Skip Stewart,
one of the best aerobatic pilots out there:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5u-8EulXogk

had his ICAS card pulled, and had to re-qualify

Heck, someone even tried to pull my card this year - guess
what organization he was retired from?

Civilians don't understand this, but I saw an interview with
an old rock star. He'd been famous, then nobody, then his
career resurged, and he was famous again. His observation?

If you're not being sued, you're nobody

[SeawingsUAE]

re Randy's B, I think Cheree made the right choice at the time, but certainly not our place to judge that decision, so lets leave it at that.

RE the S1, you made some good points, but I have to say I am very biased on this airplane, as I started flying them over 20 years ago, and still love them.

Bang for the buck I still say they are the best out there, and I have been lucky enough to fly or sample over the years the S1D, S, T, S2A, B, S, C, The Eagle II, the Yak 52, 55, Sukhoi 26, and 29, One Design, and G200, the Extra 300, and a Laser or two, and own a few of them at one time or another.

Not a huge fan of the monoplanes, they are definately capable, but they actually accentuate errors, and they demand a level of precision which is just not so enjoyable to maintain anymore. The Biplanes are wonderful energy machines, they are mostly trade offs, but I still feel a 180+Hp 4 aileron S1S is THE best snapping airplane ever built.

Now regards your point about basically "buyer beware" yes, correct, but it does not take too much education to spot good from bad.
An S1 for example is a pretty simple machine, and extremely inspectable with a small amount of knowledge.
I have seen a great deal of variables in quality with homebuilt S1`s, from minor to large errors, but again most would be very apparent with a small amount of self education prior to purchase.

You say the S1 is pretty hard for "most" pilots to land. Well yes and no, problem is these days "most" pilots have no tailwheel experience, so that is a pre requisite. But take any 50+ hour cub pilot, give him 3-5 hours in the front of an A or B, and he is fine. Actually the S1 is easier to land, than the B from the front, less inertia, and better visibility.
A bungee gear, haigh locking tailwheel S1 is a pretty docile airplane, a spring gear, scott tailwheel S1 is less so, but to be honest they both are far more myth than reality.
Bottom line with any Pitts and narrow runways, if you can see either edge you are departing it! good clue.
But they are definately worth the time it takes to learn how to land them.

RE spin training, could not agree more, thoroughly understand this regime and you will be fine, there is a point in spin recovery training when you have to make the mistakes yourself, but only when armed with the tools of recognition and recovery, both power on and off, as gyroscopics are a big new world for most.

Aerobatics is a wonderful new skill to add for most pilots, but as mentioned many desire to do it more than the reality. best way to find out is give it a go, under the right conditions, in the right aircraft, with the right people.

[Hedley]

But take any 50+ hour cub pilot, give him 3-5 hours in the front of an A or B, and he is fine

That's pretty skimpy for most people. The step up from a cub to
a Pitts is enormous. Not only does stuff happen real fast in a
Pitts, the limited visibility out the front of the Pitts is a big problem
for a lot of people. It's very much pre-WWII in it's design, and
very few people have much experience in those sorts of airplanes
any more.

I know of one fellow, he spent almost $10,000 at Budd Davisson's
in Scottsdale, Az learning how to land his Pitts. Maybe $10k isn't
much if you're a expat airline pilot that doesn't pay any income
tax, but it's a big additional chunk of change after the purchase
of a "economical" S1 for someone paying 50% marginal income
tax in Canada.

The big problem is that most people learned to fly nosewheel,
and the first thing they have to do is unlearn their bad habits
that they have learned (ie leave your feet flat on the floor) and
in my experience, it's a whole lot harder to unlearn bad habits
and learn new ones, than to learn good habits in the first place.

Heck, tailwheel airplanes of all kinds - even really tame ones
like the cub - are considered wild, bucking horses by most
pilots. At the tiny airport that I fly out of, in the last few years
I can think of the following accidents involving tailwheel aircraft:

0) homebuilt "grasshopper" (with toe-out) groundlooped, scraped
wingtip, cracked spar. Wing departed airframe next flight. ATP
pilot with many thousands of hours dead.

1) Maule groundlooped by retired Air Canada airline pilot,
landing gear bent.

2) Kitfox groundlooped by "expert" ultralight instructor. Fuselage
bent. Major repair required.

3) Murphy Rebel groundlooped by "expert" tailwheel instructor,
landing gear bent. Months of repair required.

4) Supercub groundlooped by very experienced tailwheel pilot
checking out new owner. Fuselage bent, elev, stab, aileron
and wing wrinkled. Complete airframe overhaul required.

And you think these guys should be flying Pitts?!

[SeawingsUAE]

I know of one fellow, he spent almost $10,000 at Budd Davisson's
in Scottsdale, Az learning how to land his Pitts.

!! by my math that would be 300 plus landings??

to be honest if someone needed that kind of time what was he doing buying a Pitts beforehand to begin with?
was he able to drive himself to the airport? eat with a knife and fork?

Look, this was started as a general question about what makes an "aerobatic pilot" and you put forth some really good points, and are obviously well familiar with the Pitts.
I am just trying to say I really feel over the years the S1 has got a bit of a bad rap.
Its an honest airplane, it does EXACTLY what you ask of it, no more, no less, it is direct and responsive, which basically means there is no lead and lag.
But as one who has flown the Pitts, you must admit that after only a few hours in your B you were shoving the throttle hard fwd because it was just not enough! same the S1, and for that matter every aerobatic machine I have flown.
When people say the "Pitts" is so hard, are they also saying Starduster, skybolt, acro duster, miniplane, eaa biplane, mong,? cause they are basically all the same thing, same basic materials list, but shaped a little differently.

Maybe $10k isn't much if you're a expat airline pilot that doesn't pay any income tax.

That's a strange comment, but as a point of fact, I got my first Pitts when I was 23, by spending 5 years building it, and believe me, it cost me pretty much everything I could save to get it.

Let me ask you a simple question?
Do you find the Pitts hard to land? do you sweat each flight in it? or do you just hop in, wear it and have fun, which is it's sole intent.
Lets be honest, it is a pretty useless airplane, cannot carry anything, passengers are not too keen on them for long, it is a terrible xcountry machine, loud, uncomfortable, and not good in the rain.
But it is enormous fun, nothing else.

anyway, I think we are basically saying the same thing, we both really like the airplane, and you are correct, pilots of the last few years are probably different,
but I believe basic ability is still the same, and from my experience the vast majority of pilots can learn the skills to fly any of the shorter coupled tailwheel types with realtive ease in a lot less that 35 hours!!

[Hedley]

Do you find the Pitts hard to land?

Of course not. At the last airshow I flew, I landed a Pitts out of
a surface-level reverse 1/2 cuban-8.

Anything is easy if you know how

pilots of the last few years are probably different

No kidding. I personally believe that tailwheel aircraft are soon
mostly going to be museum pieces - sort of like WWII aircraft.

It's a downward spiral - fewer tailwheel airplanes, fewer competent
tailwheel pilots, means more tailwheel accidents, which means even
fewer tailwheel airplanes and even fewer competent tailwheel
pilots.

I know you have trouble believing this, but emprical evidence
would suggest that it is true. Stick & rudder skill is obsolete -
all you need to know these days is how to program an FMS
to be on top of the aviation world

[cgzro]

Ah the never ending "Pitts are hard to land" thread. Well thats certainly not false and it does take time to learn and yes it can cost a lot of money to learn properly and yes you have to be picky where you land.

One thing that nobody else seems to mention is all the other things that are harder. Take for example a cross country. Man what a pain in the ass

Consider today. I'm supposed to take my S-1T down to Oshawa for some recover/paint work on the tail/fuse at Corporate Aircraft Restorations .. which by the way is a top notch place for that kind of thing if you are ever looking for fabric work.

Well the weather has been crappy for the last week and today looked not too bad. Great, off to the airport get all set, decide to check Notams for runway conditions only to discover that an airport that I 'may' need 3/4 of the way to Oshawa (Peterborough) has the runway Notamed closed for a few hours .. great. Doing the math it looks marginal with the headwinds and so I have to scrub. Not exactly long range machines .. 1.5hrs max at about 160MPH and you had better be on the ground.

Cross country in a single seat Pitts is NOT easy. First you need really decent weather (well thats true of most aerobatic planes), but you don't have anybody to hold the stick or help navigate or work the radios or any of that jazz. Just try unfolding a map! I can distinctly remember Hedley and myself off on a little cross country and he's a few feet off my wing practicing his formidible formation skills when I announced I had to check the map. Well a few seconds later my map is unfolded, and our little formation is now diving at the ground banked about 60 degrees Sometimes I'm sure the controllers laugh at me when I loose a few hundred feet of altitude every now an then as I have to tweak a radio or program a GPS etc.

Anyway I think the Pitts S1 just makes everything a little bit harder. Take-off, landing, cross country, maintenance, taxiing, justifying ownership etc. .. but it sure gives back a lot in return and I would not have it any other way!

Peter Ashwood-Smith
Pitts S-1T C-GZRO

[Hedley]

all the other things that are harder. Take for example a cross
country. Man what a pain in the ass

No kidding. We flew our Pitts from Eastern Ontario to Central America
and back this summer. The Pitts is not the best cross-country
machine.

Really dumb stuff bothers me - for example, there are no gyro flight
instruments in the Pitts. None. They're heavy and would be rapidly
destroyed. In the morning haze, flying across the Chesapeake Bay
north of Norfolk, VA I had no horizon, and I kept dropping a wing. Had
to descend to a ridiculously low altitude to get a horizon, even though
I was 100% legal VFR. An attitude indicator would have REALLY come
in handy right about then. In the Pitts, the best route north/south
for me is along the ocean coastline at 500 feet. You can look at
all the stuff on the beach, there's nothing to hit except maybe the
banner tows and there is an airport every few miles if you want to
land.

Hope you get GZRO to YOO for the recover soon! The lack of a
heater makes straight and level flight really uncomfortably cold
for me, with no heater - my feet get REALLY cold. The only way
I can fly a Pitts in winter is to keep pulling 6 G (seriously) so that
I stay warm, and I keep forcing blood down to my feet.

[fougapilot]

H,

I got caught in a similar situation in the CJ back in 2006. It was legal VFR (on top sin I was in the USA) but the vis was as low as 3sm. Not a great feeling since my Attitude indicator had crapped out because of all the acro I did. Needless to say, I offered myself a Xmass gift and installed a Dynon D10a in the CJ last winter.

http://www.dynonavionics.com/docs/D10A_intro.html

Great little EFIS. Does all you need. Weight around 2lbs. It doesn't follow the proper attitude during acro, but acro doesn't hurt it since there is no gyros, only solid state sensors. Plus it takes about 2 seconds to erect upon start up. Great price too.

Cheers,

F

[Hedley]

Wow!