Fort Mac FSS?

thatdaveguy · Post by **thatdaveguy** » Wed Dec 05, 2007 1:29 am

justplanecrazy wrote:Good thing there aren't any aircraft with no transponders or radios in the north...

YMM is transponder required airspace...so i'd imagine with the virtual tower it'd be doubly important

kevenv · Post by **kevenv** » Wed Dec 05, 2007 4:05 am

Will this virtual tower be run by virtual controllers who hold a virtual license? What if something goes wrong? What if the power goes out or the data feed gets dropped? Virtual liability? What a dumb idea. Maybe we could close all the towers and have the equivalent of "centers" for VFR.

sh*t magnet · Post by **sh*t magnet** » Wed Dec 05, 2007 5:34 am

Will it be like the simulator, where "if you have a moment" they can turn back the clock and give you a second go at it.

If the Union stands still for this we're all screwed.

Maybe we could close all the towers and have the equivalent of "centers" for VFR.

now you've done it, the puzzle palace at 77 metcalfe is in full swing this morning trying to figure out how much money they can save with this idea.

Justin Case · Post by **Justin Case** » Wed Dec 05, 2007 9:34 am

'Maybe we could close all the towers and have the equivalent of "centers" for VFR.'

Be VERY careful what you wish for......

thatdaveguy · Post by **thatdaveguy** » Wed Dec 05, 2007 1:40 pm

Justin Case wrote:'Maybe we could close all the towers and have the equivalent of "centers" for VFR.'

Be VERY careful what you wish for......

It's likely the future. I would be shocked if this doesn't happen in my career.

Justin Case · Post by **Justin Case** » Wed Dec 05, 2007 5:46 pm

Surely that depends on how many years you plan to stick around for......

thatdaveguy · Post by **thatdaveguy** » Wed Dec 05, 2007 9:17 pm

Justin Case wrote:Surely that depends on how many years you plan to stick around for......

more than 30

the_professor · Post by **the_professor** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 3:15 pm

NC is operated, by law, under a cost recovery business model

If NC makes changes to become more efficient, within the context of providing a safe service, it is because their customers are demanding it. Under the legislation that created it, NC cannot turn a profit. Unlike giant corporations with insane stock incentives for management, cost-cutting is not undertaken with a profit motive in mind.

As NC becomes a more efficient operation, they can and they will automatically charge lower fees. This has been demonstrated several times in the last eleven years.

By the way the "customers" I referred to earlier are, 99% of the time, the flying public, both Canadian and International. They are the ones who, in large part, fund the system.

kevenv · Post by **kevenv** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 3:48 pm

cpl_atc wrote:And what if this happens at a real live IFR centre?

It has, by the way.

Although proper redundancies in equipment make it highly unlikely. There's no reason why you couldn't equip a "virtual tower" (never heard of the concept myself) similarly.

Interesting that you say on the one hand it has happened and on the other hand you say it is highly unlikely to happen. I have been working IFR when virtually everything, and I do mean everything has gone down. Procedural control rocks! The nice thing about IFR is you have at least 3 miles in a term and 5 enroute to get your sh*t together in the event this happens. Not to mention we are trained to be able to transition to a non radar environment. I guess transitioning to non radar in a tower would be.......hell I have no idea what it would be other than ridiculous.

Ever work in a tower? Remember the ALDUS Lamp? Things happen way quicker in a tower than in IFR. All the a/c are generally very close together. You cannot substitute for a pair of eyes on a neck thats constantly scanning. Anyone who was ever trained properly in a tower has heard "Get your eyes off the radar and out the window." If this is to be done, as written earlier in this thread, with primarily a radar feed, who will control? The IFR guy in the centre retrained in VFR? A VFR guy in the center that has been retrained in Radar VFR control? Say that again...."Radar VFR control" hmmmmmm.........

I guess the company figures if they make it a remote tower (Of whatever sort!) they can get rid of the FSS that are there as well. That would certainly contribute to the bottom line when come time to renegotiate my contract!

If I was dead I am sure I would be spinning in my grave

Justin Case · Post by **Justin Case** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 4:13 pm

If you're around for more than 30 years, I am pretty sure you will see a 'virtual tower' in operation. Unless NC changes plans of course which is always possible.

justplanecrazy · Post by **justplanecrazy** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 8:24 pm

Everyday occurances in a tower:
Lose the plane on radar... look out the window and get him visual.
Lose radio contact with a plane... get out the light gun and point it out the window.
Have a plane come in with an electrical failure with no radio or transponder... spot him out the window.
want to make sure a plane is doing what you said close in... get your head out of the radar and look out the window.

Maybe I'm old fashioned but this is one scary proposal!!! I've heard that these operations are already running in the US though. Radar blips happen about once a year. Usually they just happen for a brief moment but it's not an uncommon thing for a tower to lose complete radar for a significant amount of time.

thatdaveguy · Post by **thatdaveguy** » Fri Dec 07, 2007 1:44 am

justplanecrazy wrote:Everyday occurances in a tower:
Lose the plane on radar... look out the window and get him visual.
Lose radio contact with a plane... get out the light gun and point it out the window.
Have a plane come in with an electrical failure with no radio or transponder... spot him out the window.
want to make sure a plane is doing what you said close in... get your head out of the radar and look out the window.

Maybe I'm old fashioned but this is one scary proposal!!! I've heard that these operations are already running in the US though. Radar blips happen about once a year. Usually they just happen for a brief moment but it's not an uncommon thing for a tower to lose complete radar for a significant amount of time.

you're not old fashioned. i'm a young guy who's always keen for modernization, and i think this is a horrible idea.

bigfssguy · Post by **bigfssguy** » Fri Dec 07, 2007 9:28 am

[quote="kevenv"]I guess the company figures if they make it a remote tower (Of whatever sort!) they can get rid of the FSS that are there as well. That would certainly contribute to the bottom line when come time to renegotiate my contract!

[quote]

Yes get rid of the FSS, Maybe we can put all the vfr controllers in a center like scenario like everyone is talking about. Have them work more than 50% of an 8 hour shift and reduce them. THAT would help the bottom line and help ME come contract time. HAHAHA! Just joshing you keven!