Time for a big loan

[Air_Vigilante]

Hey all, first time posting on here. I have read a bunch of the posts and will try to not re-ask any questions.

Ok, so I will have a degree in a few months in Business and Admin with a minor in Economics.
I want to be a professional pilot.

I decided to go the private route avoiding the colleges stupid rules ( I was in the Sault for a semester, didn't like it lost focus and failed a class *mechanics*)
I went to university and the whole time could only think of going back, but kept my focus and pulled out a decent average.

Now I am going to a bank to ask for a loan to start my flight training full-time. I have estimated I will need approx $55,000 to get up to an instructor rating.
I have to bring sort of a business plan on how I expect to pay this back when I am done. I will need to pay roughly, *sigh* 770$ a month for 10 years. I decided full-time would prob be the best route to do this to take advantage of the market's upturn.
Any thoughts on how I can lay out costs, revenue for after graduating. Almost like a 10 year plan. I am not asking you do ALL my work, just give me some ideas. PLEASE

Thanks!!

-Phil

[Hedley]

Better idea:

Find someone else that wants to do the same thing.

Buy a Cessna 152 together - not too many hours on the airframe or engine, with working avionics. Run it on a mogas STC.

Get a freelance instructor to teach both of you all the way through ppl, night, time building, cpl.

Sell the buck fifty-two to the next guy who wants to build time, and get your multi-ifr at a big school that specializes in it, and has a GOOD sim.

You'd save a crapload of money. That's what I would do in your shoes, anyway.

You don't need a big, fancy expensive school. You need an airplane that you can build time in economically, and an instructor who has a clue.

[Air_Vigilante]

That isn't a bad idea. The problem would be finding someone to go in on it, as well I would then need a loan for the aircrafts, insurance, and a bunch of other things. Not to mention I would have to find a fairly inexpensive aircraft. I don't think I would be able to go this route.

[Thr-Bird]

Hi Phil, we're on the same boat. i got a college degree in mechanical engineering technology but would rather fly than work 9-5. My plan is to start training soon, beginning 2008, on the private route and i'm passing the TC class1 exam at the end of this month. I think 55000$ is not a lot of money for training and we might have to spend more depending on the location in canada: country vs. city. I'm in Montreal. Where do you live?

Headley's idea is not a bad one but it all depends how much a Cessna 152 ends up costing after all expenses, I don't see how this could be cheaper but it might be my ignorance. Anybody has any idea?

[angry inch]

Last year I was lookin' around at the 150/152's & it seemed you could get a pretty good one with about 1/2 time on the engine for about 25 g's.(I'm talkin' turn-key ready to go) I would think there might be decent possibilities on a better deal than that by using the current high dollar value south of the border...

In hindsight, I kinda regret not going the route suggested by Hedly... I think if you can find a good "partner" the benefits would far outweigh the hassels & you would learn a lot more being an a/c owner...

good luck

[Hooked]

Forget the 152 they use at the puppy mills. Get a real Plane with the third wheel in the back. You will learn to fly better and faster. Those fancy gauges are distracting for a rookie. You can get a Luscumbe that will really teach you to land with a 65 hp that is started by hand and sips fuel @ >4GPH. Their is one on our Bulletin Board for 19000 that is pretty nice. Ignore the ones that say tailwheel is dangerous they never flew one. Wannabes their hats are probably turned sideways.

[Czar]

air vigilante,

Where are you located?

[xsbank]

There is the tax-deduction issue - there would likely not be any available to you if you have your own a/c. You would have to add that in to the equation.

Also, try and get a line of credit. Student loans have a stupid interest rating on them and a line of credit has the advantage of only having to pay off the interest each month, not the capital, if things are slow for you.

[Czar]

Hedley,
do you have any recommendations where one could search for good deals for a Cessna 150/152?
I'm about to start time building, and you have pushed me to consider this option really well. Especially since my flight school has been too busy.

MMurder, please check your pm's.

[Air_Vigilante]

I am in the Toronto area. Most likely will be flying out of buttonville in Markham.

Ya buying a tail dragger may not be a bad idea. My uncle owns a Maul Rocket out east, I wonder if he would be willing to let me borrow... hmm

[Hedley]

Ignore the ones that say tailwheel is dangerous

No kidding ... I soloed my 14 year old son on our 210hp fuel-injected constant-speed prop (tailwheel) Maule. I have soloed pilots in the Pitts S-2B. I completely agree about learning to fly tailwheel makes you a better stick & rudder pilot.

Two problems with a tailwheel aircraft:

1) they are often fabric and wood, which means they really need to be hangared, which is not always an option for everyone. A metal buck fifty can be tied down outside.

2) trying to find a competent tailwheel instructor can be difficult or even impossible in some places. That skill just isn't in the pilot population any more.

Much as my heart is with the tube & fabric taildragger, my brain & wallet recommends a popular nosewheel trainer.

Where to look for the airplanes? Well in Canada, COPA has a classified section, although usually the selection is pitiful. I might recommend:

http://www.globalplanesearch.com

which is a website of websites of aircraft for sale.

Some hints: with your partner, buy the aircraft cash - no loan. To save money, get the DOT-required liability insurance - don't get hull insurance.

If you buy the right aircraft, later on you can sell it for what you paid, and the maintenance won't be too onerous.

['effin hippie]

Revenue after grad:

First, check out the Salary forum here.

You might get lucky with a job right away, but realistically, prolly ~6 mos to get your first job.

I'd say the first year employed you might see 1.5 - 2K mo take home. If income is you priority, you'll be looking for full-time (lotta bush/float is seasonal) and trying to go PIC ASAP. This means instructing or going north, try the search function here to see ad nauseum debates on the relative merits of these routes.

For years 2 and 3, maybe 4 I'd say 2.5/mo take home less to start, more at the end. You really want jobs that give you lots of time, I'd say at least 6 or 7 hundred hours per year, the more the better.

By year 4 or 5 you should be able to move into the left seat of a turbine, so 3K+/mo take home. You should be able to stay above 3K after that.

That's all assuming you have income as your #1 priority, and don't give a shit about lifestyle for a few years. I'm sure everyone knows examples of people who got ahead way faster and way slower, but I think that's a decent conservative estimate for planning purposes.
If you have a significant other, well, I hope they're very supportive. If you have a family, it will probably be a whole lot harder.

The only other thing I'll say is be a bit leery of turbine F/O jobs. Unless they are giving you LOTS of time and the upgrade will be relatively fast, you would be better off money and upgrade wise if you went PIC on a Navajo or 207 or something. Plus you'll have more fun, in my opinion.

I'm sure there's others here with different ideas about this, but unless you are really fortunate, the first few years will be a little lean...

Best of luck to you!

ef

[mellow_pilot]

Take out a small loan, buy a condo, have a tenant pay the mortgage/loan payments. Apply the equity of the condo against a line of credit. The cap on the line of credit will grow as the mortgage gets paid down. (hopefully keeping pace with your flight training)

In 15 years your condo is paid off, now the line of credit (if there's anything left, you've been paying it off while working the past 12 or so years). Bam! You have an income generating condo, that you can sell if you like, and you've gotten the flight training for 0 net loss. Sell the airplane you bought from hedley's odd friend that smelled of onions and now you're making money on the deal.

Have fun.

[ottawa,kan]

I think Hedley is right about the C-150. Cheap to buy and cheap to keep...outdoors is fine. Try barnstormers ( http://www.barnstormers.com) Lots of great C-150's on there for 18-20K USD. Remeber you aren't really buying it so much as borrowing it for free for a year while you train and build hours....then re-sell it. And lots of companies will loan on aircraft. Trade a Plane is full of ads for aircraft specialty loan companies.

[RVR6000]

Can you rent out a privately owned aircraft to other pilots or do you need an OC for it.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Can you rent out a privately owned aircraft to other pilots

Yes.

or do you need an OC for it.

No.

[Adam Oke]

But they do have to be on the insurance. Unless you're with them as PIC. Right?

[Chuck Ellsworth]

But they do have to be on the insurance. Unless you're with them as PIC. Right?

Yes, unless you have blanket coverage which is expensive.

[RVR6000]

Yes, unless you have blanket coverage which is expensive.

Its not like a car then; I drive my parents car quite often my name is not on the insurance. Whats a ballpark figure for a used C-150 (30-35 years old) on blanket coverage if you're flying 800 hrs per year.

[MELd]

Better idea:

Find someone else that wants to do the same thing.

Buy a Cessna 152 together - not too many hours on the airframe or engine, with working avionics. Run it on a mogas STC.

Get a freelance instructor to teach both of you all the way through ppl, night, time building, cpl.

Sell the buck fifty-two to the next guy who wants to build time, and get your multi-ifr at a big school that specializes in it, and has a GOOD sim.

You'd save a crapload of money. That's what I would do in your shoes, anyway.

You don't need a big, fancy expensive school. You need an airplane that you can build time in economically, and an instructor who has a clue.

This is very good advice!