Aircraft Critical Surface Contamination

[imfsub12]

Yes does anyone know where to get the references for the Aircraft Critical Surface Contamination TP 10615E exam??? the one with 50 Questions?

[Doc]

Sure am glad we all have to write exams on surface contamination. Makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside. How did we live through winters without exams?

[Big Pratt]

I dunno, why don't you ask the guys from Dryden?

[imfsub12]

ya some of this stuff you can't even find answers to .. but i could be looking in the wrong spot

AHHHHHH

[Doc]

Well Big Pratt, I for one, am sick of sugar coating all this crap, so I won't. The guys in Dryden died because they did something stupid, NOT because they didn't write some stupid exam.

And before everybody flames me......yes, I knew them both.

[Cat Driver]

Doc we would have never made it as pilots if we were asked to answer fifty questions on surface contamination.

[Rockie]

That fifty question exam is a very small part of the overall strategy of raising awareness and knowledge within the whole industry. I'd say the strategy is working although mistakes are still made despite all that. It is overkill in a lot of cases but it's also been awhile since we've had an Air Florida or a Dryden. You cantankerous old guys need to look at the big picture and stop taking these things as a slight on your own judgement.

[Cat Driver]

Who are you Rocky...the thought police?

If pilots are so fu.kin stupid they need special training to understand something as basic as wing contamination they shouldn't be flying.

[Doc]

You keep dreaming that dream there Rockie. If you need a 50 question exam to be aware of airframe ice, then you are a total moron! I'll bet that Caravan pilot out of Winnipeg a couple of winters ago had written that same exam. The truth of the matter is. WE ARE NOT LEARNING!! I think I remember an accident at a certain island in south Ontario. I'm here to bet ya, he also wrote the exam?
Do you really need a 50 question exam to ensure you've wiped your ass?

[Cat Driver]

Easy now Doc, your getting cantankerous again.

[Rockie]

You guys still aren't getting it and you're still taking it personally. I guess you think flight safety programs are for morons too? Has it been so long that you can't remember a time when you didn't know everything there was to know about aviating?

[Rockie]

Who are you Rocky...the thought police?

If pilots are so fu.kin stupid they need special training to understand something as basic as wing contamination they shouldn't be flying.

And you ran a flight school?

[Doc]

I do think any pilot who NEEDS a 50 question exam to be aware of the simple fact he might need to deice IS a moron. Get real. I don't recall saying anything about flight safety programs? I must have missed that one. Perhaps I was too busy studying for my upcoming urine test?

[Cat Driver]

And you ran a flight school?

Yes, both fixed wing and helicopters ,you have a problem with that Rocky?

As a matter of fact I still teach advanced flying but maybe you would like to give me some lessons?

[Rockie]

Ground programs are not just for pilots as I'm sure you're aware Doc. People are getting trainined in it who never were before. Exams are used as a means of learning just as much as they are for testing as well. It surprises me that two veterans like you and Cat would scoff at an education program that has had undeniable benefits. Please don't quote examples like the Caravan either, you cannot deny that we're better at winter ops industry wide than we were before.

[Cat Driver]

Whats your background Rocky?

You sure seem to want to show Doc and me how out of touch we are.

[Rockie]

Whats your background Rocky?

You sure seem to want to show Doc and me how out of touch we are.

You know my background Cat, and if you don't just do a search. And you and Doc don't need any help showing how out of touch you are.

[Doc]

I got news for you Rockie. We are no better at winter ops than we have ever been. What would make you say that? I started a thread called "accidents". It's a sticky at the top of this forum. Have a look at it, then get back to us on how we "scoff" at education. Nothing wrong with education. The ice exam doesn't work. We have Pelie Island and the YWG Caravan crash to prove it. Probably many more. In this one case (contaminated wings) it's really simple. If you have ice on your airplane, remove it. There, do you need an exam on this?
I don't know you, but I'd be willing to wager, I was flying around in the winter before you were in grade school. And, I've seen every mistake that can be made in aviation. Some I can't even remember, but we have always known an aircraft wouldn't fly with certain surfaces covered in ice. The guys in Dryden knew this as well. You're swinging at windmills here sport. I'm here to tell you a 50 question exam on ice is a total waste of time.

[flyinphil]

If we are what we eat, you guys had too much of the "grumpy old bastard"!

Many smaller company employees don't get actual training other than the exam thrown in front of them. That forces them to at least skim through and make themselves familiar with information that is available to them. For all the young guys out there, it isn't a bad idea. For us geriatrics it is arguably less worthwhile but does dot another i and cross another t for TC weanies.

Oh, Happy fkn New Year!

[Cat Driver]

Doc, the captain of the airplane who crashed in Dryden was one of my friends, we learned to fly together at Central Airways in 1953.

George was one of the most safety conscientious pilots I ever knew, he also worked for TC for some years before going back into the industry and ending up flying the machine he crashed.....the Dryden crash was about far more than some pilot just ignoring a contaminated wing...the culture of the airline and his emotional state just before leaving the ramp that day had a lot to do with why he crashed......but like everything in aviation the whole truth gets blurred by ass covering after the accident.

The sudden knee jerk reaction by TC regarding wing contamination was just a smoke screen to make it look like they were on top of things.

[bobcaygeon]

Doc, Cat

How do you measure the positive effects of critical surface contamination training?
Very little practical training is taught in Private and commercial license training. Mostly because out f@%ked up industry uses newbies to teach other newbies and the instructors can't teach what they have no experience in.

There's still a lot of shit hole operators out there that only teach any of this training because they have to. You have to give the inexperienced (not stupid) at least half a chance.

You both know a lot, but it is impossible for you to take every bit of that knowledge and throw it out the window and put yourself in the position that a newbie may in (especially with the turn over these days)

How many stupid things have you done in your career that could have easily killed you if a little luck wasn't on your side. Don't kid yourself we've all done them. Some just don't get a chance to learn from their mistakes.

Doc you were young and stupid once too, In past posts you've used the arguement that older experienced guys like Norm are safer than young cowboys who crash pulling stupid stunts. Stupid young guys probably should know better but did it anyway, Old stupid guys definitely know better, have the experience to know better, and still augered it in killing innnocent people.

I can except "young and dumb and full of cum" far easier than the "old, stupid who knew better but did it anyway"

PS I don't hate old experienced pilots, they have taught me the best knowledge I have, but unfortunately they scared the living f&%K out of me too. (I learned in both situations but some I would have preferred to learn by book cause they involve well documented acts of physics)

Doc can you explain to me how a retired 747 capt. with so much knowledge, can get a fine for TC for not securing his load in a navajo???

[Doc]

I knew George back in his CV580 days. A gentleman. I am aware of the company atmosphere. It was one of the, shall we say, less than positive traits that certain YTS based operation brought over with them? Back to the "Crazy Ivan" is our hero syndrome? But, that's something no amount of exams are going to help with. Did you ever fly with Ivan? And, then there was Danielle........ah, yes......

[the_professor]

I dunno, why don't you ask the guys from Dryden?

Ouch

[the_professor]

I'd say the strategy is working although mistakes are still made despite all that.

http://www.tsb.gc.ca/en/reports/air/200 ... 5c0187.asp

[Cat Driver]

There was a Caravan out here on the west coast that augered in with ten people on board just a few weeks ago.....everything points to ice.....matters not where or how it gets on the wings the results are the same.