Instructing Vs. Northern Time

[low_timer]

Hello Everyone
I am currently just finishing up my flight training and was looking for some opinions on which start-up route is better. Many of the guys at the school have told me that it would be a big mistake to go north because it will probably involve ramp time, and a year of no learning. Instructing seems like you get to fly lots and that teaching is the best way to learn. Is it true that northern flying is almost 100% VFR?? The instructors were saying that i would gain way more real world flying experience at a school but im having trouble believing them cus their opinion is a little bias........anyways just looking for some other thoughts on the matter.
thanks

[. .]

A perfect cast into the rippling current. The dew worm wriggling on the hook as it slowly sinks down the the rivers bottom. The current drifts the worm, bouncing along the bottom right to the waiting trout. The trout all laugh hysterically at the 80lb test mono line and swim under the logjam.

You're gonna need a more subtle presentation there one poster.

[Lurch]

LOLOLOL thats the funniest thing I've heard in a while

Man are they blowing a lot of smoke, you might want to stand up

If by real world experience they mean flying around the circuit then yeah sure, but you will be hard pressed to find the real world within 20nm of your FTU.

[Cat Driver]

Aaahhhh but instructing you make your students pay for your training....what limited amount you get by self training at a FTU..

[june 1944]

I'll bite, do your research and go north, get some hands on experience and thicken that skin, you'll be better off for the rest of your career and everything else will seem like a walk in the park plus you'll have some cool stories to tell the grandkids.


.02

[4Stroke]

Lowtimer, here's my .02. I did the instructing route. It was a great experience for me, it got me tons of PIC time,
I got the ATPL, and a bunch of multi-pic from instructing in the twin. I enjoyed it. I enjoyed looking for new ways to show a struggling student a particular lesson, and felt rewarded when they 'got it'.

........but its not 'real world' experience by ANY means. You will learn customer service, people skills, salesmanship, and your knowledge base of aviation theory, meteorology, etc will be solid.

If you are looking to get that 'real world' experience, sure, go north. Now north is a very general term - you can try flying floats, you can try to get into a charter operation on a Navajo or PC12, and work your way from there. It will likely mean spending some time first on the 'ramp', loading aircraft, fuelling, servicing, etc. These days, however, that time SHOULD be fairly short. I know lots of folks that have gone this route - it has worked for some, others not.

In any case, both routes are good ways to start your career, but only YOU can make the choice. Talk to other folks who have gone north to various companies, research those companies and what they do. See if you can picture yourself doing that job. Or maybe you would rather stay closer to home and teach others to fly and build good experience.

I hope that helps, and good luck!

4S

[. .]

Apparently some of the trout were hungry, despite the clear sings.

[june 1944]

I'm always hungry, I have girls calling me a pig at least once a day!

[marbles1]

The best thing to do is pick a path which you feel you will enjoy. One is not better than the other. I have friends who did the ramp thing and I have friends who did the instructing thing and amazingly enough they all made it to the same level in their careers in similar time frame and were of similar quality. So don't listen to the bullsh*t of which one is better. They both have good and bad points.

[Cat Driver]

So don't listen to the bullsh*t of which one is better. They both have good and bad points.

Suppose you just bought an airplane in Goose Bay Labrador and wanted it ferried to Vancouver.

Who would you hire to ferry it.

(A) A bush pilot with 1000 hours flying in the bush.

(B) A flight instructor with 1000 hours flying for a FTU.

A or B?

[KAG]

In the event that this isn't a troll...I did the instructor and northern route. Instructing is great for getting you’re in to the CARS, theory, and dealing with the public. But aside from a great way to build a solid knowledge foundation, it's not industry time and kind of filler in the log book. It helps get those ATPL’s quickly, and will help getting a quicker upgrade. The north teaches you how to fly by the seat of your pants while teaching you how to think outside the box.
Personally, I would do both. Instruct for a bit, and then head up north. Why not get as much experience as possible while experiencing more of what our very diverse industry has to offer?!?!
I wish I had of done a season of float flying. Oh well, maybe someday.

[sky's the limit]

Why not get as much experience as possible while experiencing more of what our very diverse industry has to offer?!?!

Bingo....

However, it seems there are very few people wired this way anymore. Everyone seems to want the white shirt and wanker bars as fast as possible, experience isn't important, nor evidently is the pay....


stl

[North of You]

One other thing I would like to add. How many times have you heard of folks going in to an interview at their dream job and the interviewer or CP just so happen to have flown floats or bush where the interviewee was presently flying? Conversely, when was the last time you heard a similar story about flight instructors?

[lucky37]

STL, I think it's more than simply moving on to the white shirt world, it's about having a schedule and regular paycheque (or the dream of having those) and living in a hospitable place to raise a family, that lures people away from the bush. It's no surprise to me that most people in their late 20's don't want to fly seasonally and move to different places twice a year, or more. Not to mention having no life outside of work during the summer and having to find another job for the winter (if on floats). It is not for most people and I'm not surprised. However, when you're young, NO EXCUSE!! KAG's got it right, and Cat Driver, I was about to reply "game, set, and match".

[Lurch]

So don't listen to the bullsh*t of which one is better. They both have good and bad points.

Suppose you just bought an airplane in Goose Bay Labrador and wanted it ferried to Vancouver.

Who would you hire to ferry it.

(A) A bush pilot with 1000 hours flying in the bush.

(B) A flight instructor with 1000 hours flying for a FTU.

A or B?

Cat I expected a more changing question then that from you, The answer is easy, The Instructor.

The Instructor will do the job for half the pay, won't endanger your plane by flying it in cloud or anything other then clear skies, and when it came to dealing with ATC in Vancouver they would have no problems with the radio chatter in busy airspace.

Lurch

[sky's the limit]

STL, I think it's more than simply moving on to the white shirt world, it's about having a schedule and regular paycheque (or the dream of having those) and living in a hospitable place to raise a family, that lures people away from the bush.

Since when did people with no experience at the beginning of a 'career' deserve the luxury of "schedules?" This generation seems largely allergic EARNING a living, they want it handed to them on a plate. Things are good right now, but mark my words, when the next downturn hits and we've got hundreds and hundreds of 500-4k hour pilots with no PIC, and one job on their resumes out on the street, they'll all be whining about how unfair things are. 'Why don't I have a job?'

I view it this way: You choose a career, you make it your business to learn as much about that career as possible, acquire the best skill set possible, and ALWAYS have an eye to the future. Ie. make damn sure your eggs aren't all in one basket. Fly as many types and applications as you can, get PIC, and protect yourself down the road.

When you're starting in aviation, regardless of your age, schedules and security are two luxuries you don't get handed to you, these are things you either earn, or in this day and age, just wait for until Big Red or WJ call. Reading the threads on here about PASCO, CMA, West Coast, and host of others is all the proof you need that this mentality of 'security and schedules' doesn't work. We wonder why pay is what it is, but the answer is simple, the whole lot are looking 10yrs down the road to when they're going to be making the big bucks. When things go south again in a couple years, a whole lot of people are going to get a severe shock.

I'm not trying to pick anything here, and I know my opinion on this subject is not universally shared, but I just can't believe some of the things I read on here sometimes.

Whoever said "do both," has it right. Get experience as fast as you can, and as diversely as you can, you just never know when you're going to need it.

stl

[lucky37]

Since when did people with no experience at the beginning of a 'career' deserve the luxury of "schedules?" This generation seems largely allergic EARNING a living, they want it handed to them on a plate. Things are good right now, but mark my words, when the next downturn hits and we've got hundreds and hundreds of 500-4k hour pilots with no PIC, and one job on their resumes out on the street, they'll all be whining about how unfair things are. 'Why don't I have a job?'

I couldn't agree more. People want the easy life and they want it quick, which is something that seems in abundance now. I spent a couple years on the dock, and also working for moving companies, factories, and an aircraft painting facility during the winters between before I got my first break at a flying job. It wasn't easy and I'm glad I stuck at it. To me, that is what aviation entails: you gotta work for it if you want to earn it. Nothing is handed to you.

In other professions, people are given that coveted schedule and regular paycheque right away, and I think many starting out in aviation think that's the way it's gonna be. They look at where they want their life to end up, and they see a path from instructor, to first officer, to captain (if they racked up enough "pic" as an instructor), to airlines. They are looking for the quickest way to get what they want and I can't blame them for it. Working at anything but being a pilot (ramp or dock), or going somewhere they wouldn't enjoy (outside a major city) can be seen as a roadblock in the fast-track to getting what they want. It's human nature to pick the easiest route. It comes down to a personal choice.

It's just not what I wanted to do, or others want to do. For some it works, for others it doesn't. But I think you are correct in saying that for those of whom it doesn't work out, they will be in for a big shock when things go bad. For instance, a Bearskin guy I knew was laid off during rough times and found a job flying floats -- with previous experience on a Beaver -- while looking for other work. For him, he had a backup. For the others, I don't know.

Nothing is for sure in aviation and there are many paths to take. However, it comes down to a shuffle of the cards sometimes and some people have figured out how to stack the deck a little more than others.

[SmokinJoe]

When I graduated from school I thought about instructing but I just couldn’t dish out the extra $7000 to do it. So I moved to NW Ontario and started working the ramp and finally started flying. That was almost 3 years ago, now I’m still in NW Ontario, on my 3rd airplane and loving it. It's not all VFR, trust me. The flying up here is anything but boring. In my opinion it teaches you how to operate on your own when you’re beyond gliding distance to the threshold of that 8000ft paved runway. I think the experience you get flying in these parts is invaluable. I've met some great people and have had a ton of fun in my 2.5 years here so far. I spent about a year on the ramp before I started flying. Currently here the wait for the rampies to touch an airplane is about 4-6 months, some even less. We had a guy who got trained up 2 weeks after he started on the ramp with us. We just needed someone right away and he was in the right place at the right time. I would defiantly say go 'north' instead of instructing, you will learn a lot more about yourself and what you are capable of.

[Hedley]

In other professions, people are given that coveted schedule and regular paycheque right away

um, no. Do you have any idea what kinds of long
hours and low pay lawyers and doctors go through
after they get out of school?

It was the same for me in the engineering world.
In my first year out of school, for low pay (compared
to what I earn now) I once worked 3 days straight with
no sleep, to make a deadline. As a friend once told me,
"The only thing I got from a startup was no sleep".

Pilots are a lot like farmers. They whine & complain
all the time, like a bunch of women. If it rains, farmers
complain that it's gonna rot the crops. If it's sunny,
farmers complain that it's too dry

[sky's the limit]

Pilots are a lot like farmers. They whine & complain
all the time, like a bunch of women.

Hedley,

Are you suggesting that "whining and complaining" are exclusively the domain of women and farmers? After reading the most of what get's written here on a daily basis, I couldn't disagree more. Besides, my Wife doesn't whine, and she can shoot......


stl

[. .]

In other professions, people are given that coveted schedule and regular paycheque right away

um, no. Do you have any idea what kinds of long
hours and low pay lawyers and doctors go through
after they get out of school?

It was the same for me in the engineering world.
In my first year out of school, for low pay (compared
to what I earn now) I once worked 3 days straight with
no sleep, to make a deadline. As a friend once told me,
"The only thing I got from a startup was no sleep".

Pilots are a lot like farmers. They whine & complain
all the time, like a bunch of women. If it rains, farmers
complain that it's gonna rot the crops. If it's sunny,
farmers complain that it's too dry

Hedley, do you have any clue what lawyers make? One of my best friends articled for 90k. He's now in NYC making 250k/year 2 years out of school. Not all lawyers are in the same boat, but a rise like that is impossible in our field. My brother is an engineer, he started at 75k/year right out of school. How many pilots are making 75k 5 years after taking their intro flight? Certainly not too many, even less if they go through a college or university program.

Just because you know unsuccessful lawyers and engineers doesn't mean you should them as a base line for comparison.

[flightdude1]

Cat I expected a more changing question then that from you, The answer is easy, The Instructor.

The Instructor will do the job for half the pay, won't endanger your plane by flying it in cloud or anything other then clear skies, and when it came to dealing with ATC in Vancouver they would have no problems with the radio chatter in busy airspace.

Lurch

HA....your an idiot...are you saying bush pilots don't have an IFR? At least we've got the experience rather than sitting in the right seat on a clear blue day teaching your student with a hood...and plus, it will take you 2 weeks if your going to go VFR from say MB or ONT to Vancouver...good luck!!! And how exactly is flying in cloud going to endanger the plane if the pilot is certified??Oh, and your hold at the airport waiting for a runway that is STRAIGHT into wind, will cause more fuel and time...and as for the radio, try to keep your wanna be Air Canada voice to a minimum....Idiot........

[Lurch]

Cat I expected a more changing question then that from you, The answer is easy, The Instructor.

The Instructor will do the job for half the pay, won't endanger your plane by flying it in cloud or anything other then clear skies, and when it came to dealing with ATC in Vancouver they would have no problems with the radio chatter in busy airspace.

Lurch

HA....your an idiot...are you saying bush pilots don't have an IFR? At least we've got the experience rather than sitting in the right seat on a clear blue day teaching your student with a hood...and plus, it will take you 2 weeks if your going to go VFR from say MB or ONT to Vancouver...good luck!!! And how exactly is flying in cloud going to endanger the plane if the pilot is certified??Oh, and your hold at the airport waiting for a runway that is STRAIGHT into wind, will cause more fuel and time...and as for the radio, try to keep your wanna be Air Canada voice to a minimum....Idiot........

Wow "Dude" you might want to read my post again before calling me an idiot, try reading slower and don't move your lips as much, then maybe you will get it.

[Cat Driver]

I got it.

[Lurch]

Thanks Cat I knew you would, Sarcasim is lost/wasted on the youth of today