MPL-Multicrew Pilot Licence

[Smitty]

My question is this...if a MPL candidate is not allowed to fly by themselves in a 172, how is it reasonable to expect this person to be in command of a transport category aircraft with a crew under his/her command? What happens at the time of the upgrade? Will this person be passed over in favour of a candidate with actual command time to appease the insurance companies and the flying public?

Those of us that have been in the position of being upgraded on anything from a 'ho to a B1900 know that there is a steep learning curve that comes with command. One that the MPL candidate has yet to go through and yet they may have to go through it on a 737 or a 320.

All I can say is YIKES!!!

[trey kule]

It is my understanding that there is no ploan whatsoever to upgrade these pilots. They will, unless they go outside and get qualified never command. It is, as someone else mentioned, a band aid solution, and the airlines dont give a rats butt...it solves a problem for them and , will ultimately cost them a bunch less money....can you say tier 78 pay scale.

There is also the potential in the future that the airplanes that will not need crew, will have one of these on board.

Want to end it all. Dont let them use "pilot" on their license. Call it a multi crew member license....the other thing is that it is my experience that the best pilots are not those that got into aviaition to go to the airlines, but those who learned to fly and fell in love with it..then realized like a drug addict that is jonesing, they had to work in the industry to get their fix.

And let me repeat....dont let them use "pilot" on their license.

[Smitty]

So if someone doesn't make the grade to get the MPL, then they could get their licences the old fasioned way and end up as the Captain of the dude that did make the cut. Could make for an interesting CRM story.

[Cat Driver]

I have spent some time reading through the article in the Aviation Safety Letter and have mixed emotions about the MPL.

The author of the article spins a rather interesting scenario with a liberal use of acronyms that tend to give it a typical bureaucratic flavor through word salading.

However even with CRM and TEM and QA and all those other feel good acronyms it would appear that you may one day be flying in a big jet airliner when the elderly Captain becomes incapacitated and 500 people sitting in the back are dependent on a FO who can not fly a 172 for pleasure to land the airplane.

Sounds like a great idea.

Judging from how some of the flight school PPL's land a 172 how could these MPL's be any worse?

[Spader]

So if someone doesn't make the grade to get the MPL, then they could get their licences the old fasioned way and end up as the Captain of the dude that did make the cut. Could make for an interesting CRM story.

I got my hands on a copy of the Procedures for Air Navigation Services — Training (PANS-TRG), which is the ICAO document covering the requirements for issue of a MPL type permit. It is intersting to note that it says nothing about a flight test, or other similar test for the issue of the MPL. So basically it would be the ATO that decides if a candidate will wash out of the program or not, and could issue a MPL on the basis of only the required 240 hours of training.


It is also written in the Safety letter;

"...[ATO's] will be permitted to seek aproval for "alternate means of regulatory compliance" with requirements prescribed in the CAR's......This provision will represent a huge enabler for this type of training service provider to make innovative and cost effective decisions"

So we are also giving the ATO's the right to skip some of the requirements in an effort to cut corners and make things cheaper. Is that what the industry is most concerned about, turning out the cheapest pilots they can?

[Cat Driver]

Don't forget this little gem in that article.

An interesting feature afforded by an outcome-based approach is that these organizations will be permitted to seek approval for " alternative means of regulatory compliance " with the requirements prescribed in the Canadian Aviation Regulations.......

Sounds like a great idea....

I wonder how much money will pass hands between the TC policy makers and the ATO's who will try and make a buck at this?

[trey kule]

We had a in company discussion about this last night..if I remeber correctly it went something like this
" damn MPL. damn TC. what a fox...ish that my beer?"

Seriously though, one of the interesting rationalizations for the license is that the skills and knowledge being taught to pilots nowadays is not apllicable to modern airliners. so with that in mind, they have taken the jump in logic to conclude there is no necesity to teach people about "steam guages", old avionics etc. Better, and more appropriate to teach the fundamentals and use of the applicable systems.
Now with such knowledge, and one qualified pilot on board, things should work.
Not my rationale, but I can see it being used to justify this type of program.

And maybe, despite the kick to all our egos, this is all that is really needed for the second pilot in a modern plane. The only issue then, would be is where are the pilots going to come from to fill the left seat, and will they be able to retain career assistants.

And again. Feel free to contact TC, your Member of Parliament, and the minister to have them call this a Multi crew license, and not have the word "pilot" referred to anywhere. It will have more of an inpact on their recruitment than anything else we can do.

[hawker driver]

Why bother teaching kids how to add and subtract in school when computers do all of that?

Is that a waste of time? I wonder what would happen if the school boards across the country said they were going to stop teaching
how to add and subtract since computers can do that better.

Without knowing the basics you become dependent on technology to do everything for you.

[_dwj_]

Why bother teaching kids how to add and subtract in school when computers do all of that?

I think a more accurate comparison would be with slide rules, which don't really help anyone understand maths.

If the MPL course is like the JAA frozen ATPL, it will actually make it easier for pilots to migrate from MPL to an ATPL than it currently is in Canada with the CPL/IR, and will give them more relevant skills to flying for the airlines rather than flying round the circuit for hundreds of hours in a cessna 150.

In Europe the standard route is to get a FO job with an airline immediately after graduating from the frozen ATPL course. The days of having to build hundreds of hours before having any chance of getting a job are long gone.

As usual there is a huge amount of ignorant and blatantly wrong speculations here. Anyone seriously interested in the MPL should talk to TC and flight schools to find out the facts.

[2R]

I thought the next generation of airplanes will not need pilots ???
auto T.O.,auto pilot for criuse ,auto land,and auto crash when the autos fail

[Cat Driver]

Anyone seriously interested in the MPL should talk to TC and flight schools to find out the facts.

Yeh thats the answer.

[hawker driver]

[
The days of having to build hundreds of hours before having any chance of getting a job are long gone.

What happens when the economy sinks again?

Would you want to be holding a MPL when there are a few hundred pilots out of work?

[Smitty]

The problem arises when all the fancy doo-hickeys fail and the pilot has to actually fly the aircraft. Something that still does happen with relative frequency in the modern airliner. Flying skills are still (and I think always will be) relevant and for TC to think otherwise is both delusional and unrealistic.

AC 190 comes to mind. Could you imagine a couple of MPLs on board. "Don't worry, the flight control system will know what to do...save us all mighty auto system, save us."

[. ._]

This isn't really a big deal, IMHO.

If the Captain gets incapacitated and the plane can't auto-land, the next part on the checklist will be, "The MPL officer must ask over the P.A. system. 'Is there anyone on board who knows how to fly a plane? Please come to the cockpit.'"

It works in the movies all the time!

-istp

[C-GGGQ]

suddenly as a 250 hour wonder I wont be the worste thing for aviation anymore bring it on . Unfortunately I can't be on every flight to land the plane for these guys

[hawker driver]

Makes you wonder what would happen with a new hire with a MPL if he experience a situation as happened to Air Canada but with the Captain starting to have a breakdown during a flight.

Being a relatively young and inexperienced 300 hour MPL FO and having to make a decision to have the Captain restrained knowing that everything is in your hands is a big decision to make. I would much rather have an FO who paid his dues flying in the bush, night cargo or commuter aircraft for a few years make that decision.

You can't teach experience in a simulator.

[eurochild61]

This lic came about to address the current and growing shortage of pilots around the world. (canada isn't feeling it the same way USA or other countries are).
There simply isn't the supply to meet the demand, even now (except Canada it seems).
Demographic challenges combined with cost of a flying education vs eventual pay-off is discouraging a lot of young people to pursue aviation, which really sucks.
It is a very challenging situation and is throwing the 'old school' of time-building in the bush against training someone up for the type they will fly upon license completion. It is very frustrating to listen to the crusty old bastards I sometimes work with vs the newer-thinking guys/gals that say you're far more likely to kill yourself flying single-pilot ifr than in a widebody, and why NOT train up on a sim properly and then fly with more experienced captains?
There's a lot of professional pride in having flown up north or under challenging conditions, but there has to be some acceptance that the world is changing fast & organizations need to come up with safe and realistic training environments.

[Cat Driver]

When you take away the key board and the glass screens you still have an airplane to fly.

There does not seem to be much emphasis on actual airplane handling skills in the MPL...

[Kelowna Pilot]

This lic came about to address the current and growing shortage of pilots around the world.

Air Canada has 5000 applications on file. India now has produced so many CPL's (trained overseas) so quickly that a lot of these new Indian CPLs are currently unemployed.

If you put all the spin and rhetoric aside, the MPL is the by product of industry propaganda that has taken on a life of its own (the fantasy pilot shortage crisis) and the desire of airline bean counters to find yet more excuses to lower Terms and Conditions for its workforce.

I see some use for the MPL in a few very select countries and situations, but for most of the world, no.

[JohnnyHotRocks]

This lic came about to address the current and growing shortage of pilots around the world.

Air Canada has 5000 applications on file. India now has produced so many CPL's (trained overseas) so quickly that a lot of these new Indian CPLs are currently unemployed.

If you put all the spin and rhetoric aside, the MPL is the by product of industry propaganda that has taken on a life of its own (the fantasy pilot shortage crisis) and the desire of airline bean counters to find yet more excuses to lower Terms and Conditions for its workforce.

I see some use for the MPL in a few very select countries and situations, but for most of the world, no.

I don't think that the "pilot shortage" is merely propaganda...there is a shortage...but it is not a shortage of low time CPL's...it is a shortage of Captains that can jump in a jet and take it across the ocean without someone holding their hand...I think the MPL will only make this shortage worse, especially since there is a good chance that people who would aspire to be pilots would go the MPL route to fast-track into an airliner, and then never have a hope of upgrading to the left seat.

[Kelowna Pilot]

I don't think that the "pilot shortage" is merely propaganda...there is a shortage...but it is not a shortage of low time CPL's...it is a shortage of Captains that can jump in a jet and take it across the ocean without someone holding their hand...

While there may be localized spikes in demand for specialized pilots (such as you mention), that is not sufficient to say there is a pilot shortage in any general sense, nor is it sufficient justification for industry lobby groups to send press releases to the media warning of an impending "crisis" (but it doesn't stop them anyway )

I know what worker shortages look like, and what's happening in Canada does not show the hallmarks of any kind of real shortage. A cyclical spike in demand in certain areas of the industry, yes, but general shortage not by any stretch of the imagination.

Just look at the number of highly qualified and experienced pilots Air Canada has no file. Or Westjet. Then look at the starting two year wage and tell me there is a shortage. Kids without grade 12 and no experience make more money driving trucks in the Oil Sands...

I think the MPL will only make this shortage worse, especially since there is a good chance that people who would aspire to be pilots would go the MPL route to fast-track into an airliner, and then never have a hope of upgrading to the left seat

The MPL will be an absolute disaster for new pilots in the Canadian context; it's the result of what happens when industry leaders start drinking their own Kool-Aid, detach from reality and get lost in their own fluffy talk. Unless Air Canada or Westjet sponsors them and guarantees employment, the MPL will simply render the Canadian MPL graduate with a very expensive hole in their pocket. Unless the MPL graduate is willing to work for absolute peanut wages, why would AC or WJ hire one when there are thousands of already qualified and experienced pilots sending them resumes every day?

So you're going to have your MPL graduate with 100 hours of A320 Sim time out working the ramp in Yellowknife for min wage...... no doubt Buffalo Joe will be impressed by the A320 simulator time

[Carrier]

Experience cannot be bought or taught! There is no substitute for working one’s way up the aviation food chain. This also operates as a weeding out process. Those who find they are unable to deal with emergencies, stress, etc. are weeded out while still in small aircraft where their errors and omissions have less impact. It is impossible to forecast how a two or three hundred hour wonder will react when he faces a real as against simulated emergency as the sole pilot in command of something with 500 pax. There have been many such situations over the past few years. One reason for having two pilots up front is for the survivor, who may well be the F.O., to bring the kite safely back to an airport when the other flight deck occupant croaks. Similarly, in other emergencies that require the attention of both pilots, how will it help the skipper if his F.O. panics and is of no help? This is a major reduction in safety. The travelling public, and properly qualified pilots who will have to fly with such monkeys, deserve better.

[JohnnyHotRocks]

This also operates as a weeding out process. Those who find they are unable to deal with emergencies, stress, etc. are weeded out while still in small aircraft where their errors and omissions have less impact.

Unfortunately, this couldn't be further from the truth....