Where have all the experienced General Aviation AME’s gone?
Why are apprentice’s not going into the GA market?
I am a owner/AME M1 and S licenced of a third party maintenance shop.
We do a variety of maintenance, from line maintenance to aircraft restorations and modifications
I find it getting harder and harder to find employees.
It’s not wages that seems to be the issue, I cant get you guy’s to even apply.
I have postings on this site as well as several other sites.
I get a lot of applications from M2 licensed people with 727,737,Airbus - experience.
Why do I not get the applications from the M1 people with relevant experience?
You know Cessna 100/200 series aircraft, Piper Suber Cubs, Beavers Otters (Bush planes)
I am more than willing to pay top wages for top people, and fair wages for less qualified people with steady increases in pay with experience and ability.
I have been reading the postings in this forum on wages, I too agree that wages across the industry are low but so are the rates that AMO’s can charge. This is the largest disparity between the Auto Mechanics wages and the AME . On average there is a $10 - $20 per hour difference in shop rates from the automotive industry to the aviation Industry. This split is steadily getting small as AMO operators creep the rates up.
Over that past couple years I have hired several contract engineers.
Every one who has work in are shop say’s the same thing - They have never been in a operation that does such a wide variety of maintenance and volume of aircraft.
Working here you will not get board of the same tasks day in and day out.
We may be doing a 200 Hour check on a Cessna 206 Monday, Tuesday a float change on A Twin Otter, Wednesday salvaging a Super Cub that had a Prop strike on a 600 foot mountain air stripe. There is exciting and challenging opportunities in General Aviation with pay scales to match.
Anyone inerested.
GA AME's
Moderators: North Shore, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako
Re: GA AME's
I can tell you some of the reasons, Location is one, Alot of guys would prefer to be in major centers like Calgary, Vancouver and such. For them you could offer 100/hour to work in say Norman wells for example, they wouldn't take it cause it sucks as a location for them. (For those in Norman Wells it was an example. Not an insult, I've been there and liked it, but I wouldn't want to live there permenantly, but that's just me!) Point two, There are fewer and fewer GA AME's due to better pay, opporunities and more stability in other fields. I personally know of 6 GA AME's who left Aviation for other fields of employment, They didn't like the fact of the uncertainty of whether the shop they worked for will be around tomorrow. Some just grew tired of the work.
Thirdly Some GA AME's have spent years getting experience on both Turbine and Piston, Some would not want to leave that and go back to working on Pistons only.
Fourthly, some GA AME's are looking to spend more time off the floor the older they get, maybe into a QA. position or something like that. Well if your in a smaller GA Shop where does He go from there? He will be working the floor forever and never see the other side of the fence... Some guys prefer that I have a friend that just wants to turn wrenches and never deal with customers or paperwork, but there are probably more that will want to by Master of there own Destiny.
Just my take on the subject anyway.
For me I was in GA and small Charter Airline. I left for Overseas work in Aviation
mcrs
Thirdly Some GA AME's have spent years getting experience on both Turbine and Piston, Some would not want to leave that and go back to working on Pistons only.
Fourthly, some GA AME's are looking to spend more time off the floor the older they get, maybe into a QA. position or something like that. Well if your in a smaller GA Shop where does He go from there? He will be working the floor forever and never see the other side of the fence... Some guys prefer that I have a friend that just wants to turn wrenches and never deal with customers or paperwork, but there are probably more that will want to by Master of there own Destiny.
Just my take on the subject anyway.
For me I was in GA and small Charter Airline. I left for Overseas work in Aviation
mcrs
.... Maintenance is a science since it's execution relies, sooner or later, on most or all of the sciences. Lindley R. Higgins Maintenance Engineering Handbook; Mcgraw-Hill, NY, 1990.. Look ma, I'm a Scientist!
Re: GA AME's
MCRS
Thanks for your take on the topic.
For my personal situation, I am not quite that far north. (South of 60th)
Maybe to expand on my question what is wrong with living in smaller centers anyhow?
we have all the services of the major centers at a fraction of the cost.
Sure maybe your fuel and groceries are a little more.
But the housing cost are substantially cheaper and we don't have to drive for 45 minutes or a hour to get to and from work as many in the larger centers do.
As for job security sure the small GA AMO’s down south (close to those major centers) one probably is left wondering if the door will be open tomorrow. That is because General Aviation in those area’s is mostly the privet aircraft owner, lets be honest only a fraction of them can really afford to own there airplane.
Real General Aviation the (CAR 703 operators ) this is where GA is still alive and well. Its been 21 years since I came into this industry and have been at he same place the entire time. I went from apprentice, to licenced AME on the floor, to base manager, to DOM/QA/PM, to owner and all the above. In all those years I have never had to worry about whether not we are going to be here tomorrow.
Pistons and turbines ? - We do both on a regular basis and in my opinion for what it is worth it takes a better AME to maintain a piston engine, than a turbine.
Advancement to QA or DOM? Do you really think that owner/AME/QA/PM/DOM/accountable executive wouldn’t welcome some help in those departments too? There is always room to advance your career goals.
Another benefit of working in the right type of GA shop is learning more than one discipline in the field of aircraft maintenance. I will give a example.
Last summer I needed couple extra guy’s so I went to a firm that can provide contract guy’s for short term deals. I said I need a guy that has experience on the Cessna 206 and 185 that can do sheet metal work.
They told me that there weren’t people like that. I said well I know of 4 but they work for me already.
Thanks for your take on the topic.
For my personal situation, I am not quite that far north. (South of 60th)
Maybe to expand on my question what is wrong with living in smaller centers anyhow?
we have all the services of the major centers at a fraction of the cost.
Sure maybe your fuel and groceries are a little more.
But the housing cost are substantially cheaper and we don't have to drive for 45 minutes or a hour to get to and from work as many in the larger centers do.
As for job security sure the small GA AMO’s down south (close to those major centers) one probably is left wondering if the door will be open tomorrow. That is because General Aviation in those area’s is mostly the privet aircraft owner, lets be honest only a fraction of them can really afford to own there airplane.
Real General Aviation the (CAR 703 operators ) this is where GA is still alive and well. Its been 21 years since I came into this industry and have been at he same place the entire time. I went from apprentice, to licenced AME on the floor, to base manager, to DOM/QA/PM, to owner and all the above. In all those years I have never had to worry about whether not we are going to be here tomorrow.
Pistons and turbines ? - We do both on a regular basis and in my opinion for what it is worth it takes a better AME to maintain a piston engine, than a turbine.
Advancement to QA or DOM? Do you really think that owner/AME/QA/PM/DOM/accountable executive wouldn’t welcome some help in those departments too? There is always room to advance your career goals.
Another benefit of working in the right type of GA shop is learning more than one discipline in the field of aircraft maintenance. I will give a example.
Last summer I needed couple extra guy’s so I went to a firm that can provide contract guy’s for short term deals. I said I need a guy that has experience on the Cessna 206 and 185 that can do sheet metal work.
They told me that there weren’t people like that. I said well I know of 4 but they work for me already.
Re: GA AME's
I might be looking for work when I get back to Canada in June or July/08 contract close date is a bit fluid at the moment. PM me if you like with details what your looking for and name company, I like to research who people / organizations are before I commit to anything. been stung to many times in the past.AMOowner wrote:MCRS
Thanks for your take on the topic.
For my personal situation, I am not quite that far north. (South of 60th)
Maybe to expand on my question what is wrong with living in smaller centers anyhow?
(Not get me wrong I am not one of those types where location matters so much, I am in one of the least developed countries in Africa. However, Going from the point of view of the City born and raised person,
There is probably more night life in the major centers, There is probably a better (For lack of a better word) choice of companionship....... Let's just say the choices are probably greater in the major center then the smaller ones. (Just what I have surmised from people I have worked with in the past and present.
we have all the services of the major centers at a fraction of the cost.
I am sure you do have the same services at a fraction of the cost, but the perception hasn't changed.
IE. do you have Video Arcades, BestBuy, FutureShop, Internet cafes, Shall I continue.... Some people value that over Smaller centers, with few store options. As far as popluar name brand stores.
Sure maybe your fuel and groceries are a little more.
But the housing cost are substantially cheaper and we don't have to drive for 45 minutes or a hour to get to and from work as many in the larger centers do.
Don't I know it with housing I sold mine in Edmonton before the boom!
I loved working in the smaller center Took me 10minutes on my Bike to cycle from Home to the Airport, And I lived on the opposite side of town.
As for job security sure the small GA AMO’s down south (close to those major centers) one probably is left wondering if the door will be open tomorrow. That is because General Aviation in those area’s is mostly the privet aircraft owner, lets be honest only a fraction of them can really afford to own there airplane.
Real General Aviation the (CAR 703 operators ) this is where GA is still alive and well.
No Arguement here I have seen both sides of the coin in this regard, however I have seen some very good shops down South that seem pretty secure.
Its been 21 years since I came into this industry and have been at he same place the entire time. I went from apprentice, to licenced AME on the floor, to base manager, to DOM/QA/PM, to owner and all the above. In all those years I have never had to worry about whether not we are going to be here tomorrow.
Pistons and turbines ? - We do both on a regular basis and in my opinion for what it is worth it takes a better AME to maintain a piston engine, than a turbine.
There again depends where you are. I would beg to differ in my current situation Africa tends to be hard on Aircraft doesn't matter if it is Piston or Turbine, Sand Salt water, Rain, mud are all equally problematic on both types. I am only working on the Turbine here presently, but my Neighbour has both and they require similiar amounts of care and attention.
Advancement to QA or DOM? Do you really think that owner/AME/QA/PM/DOM/accountable executive wouldn’t welcome some help in those departments too? There is always room to advance your career goals.
Some don't. I have worked in a couple of shops one with 3 Engineers and one with 6 that I recall where the DOM/Owner wanted total control over ever aspect and wouldn't accept any offers of assistance from His employees. Can't really blame them for wanting to do it all as they did start the company and they are ultimately responsible. I don't necessarily agree with it but, to each His own. He certainly has the right to know what is going on but like you infered a Good manager can delicate responsibilties and still maintain control.
Another benefit of working in the right type of GA shop is learning more than one discipline in the field of aircraft maintenance.
(No Arguement here either.) I got my Start in a GA shop that maintained N reg as well as C, and 5Y I learned more there then any other place I have been in this industry. I am still working with them indirectly after umpteen years.
I will give a example.
Last summer I needed couple extra guy’s so I went to a firm that can provide contract guy’s for short term deals. I said I need a guy that has experience on the Cessna 206 and 185 that can do sheet metal work.
They told me that there weren’t people like that. I said well I know of 4 but they work for me already.
Now were you looking for people with both M1 and S license or just M1 with Structure experience or Structures Guys with M1 experience. I think if you were looking for a person with their M1 and S licensed that might be hard to come by. I do know a few M1's with Structures experience and vice versa.
But they are not willing to leave the big City after being there now for over 10 + years. Sorry!
Good luck in your search.
mcrs
PS- Just saw your Ad that is a good touch adding a link to information on what that area of the country is like. That definitely would help with guys who are unfamiliar with what that area of the country offers. You might get a few more bites now.
.... Maintenance is a science since it's execution relies, sooner or later, on most or all of the sciences. Lindley R. Higgins Maintenance Engineering Handbook; Mcgraw-Hill, NY, 1990.. Look ma, I'm a Scientist!
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Ballsssssss
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Re: GA AME's
AMOwner,
I agree that good GA Ame's are hard to find, and in my opinion are probably the most valuable kind of AME in the business. They require a rounded set of skills that usually include sheet-metal, welding, machining and electical abilities. Having cut my teeth at a 3rd party AMO looking after roughly 35 floatplanes from Super-cubs to Beech 18's I learned in a hurry how to fix almost anything on a small aircraft and how to trouble-shoot efficiently. I find there are a lot of AME's around who have no idea how to actually fix something outside of doing simple re and re's. After spending some years specialized in turbine engines I am back into GA working on crummy old 'Hos and actually loving it. We are getting paid a bit better these days and there is nothing in this line of work that is more satisfying than fixing a difficult snag so the plane can make it's morning flight.
I think one of the reason that all the good AME's are leaving GA is that the above mentioned skills tend to make them an exceptional employee and valuable asset in any type of operation and the money, holidays, benefits and general treatment of personnel is far more desirable in large companies and different industries. I understand that I just made a very general statement and some GA operators treat their people well but the majority don't. I gave up an Engineering job (Not AME) in a large turbine engine based company to get back into GA 3rd party maintenance in a small community only to find that the small business I went to work for did everything they could to take advantage of labour code grey areas and loopholes in order to screw staff out of OT while pretty much leaving the guys with no options but to work 50 hr weeks, weekends and holidays without asking or warning. I left there in a hurry. There is a reason they can't keep experienced AME's there.
I am currently working for a GA company that is hands-down the best company I have ever worked for. With the increase in wages that we are experiencing maybe some of the good people will come back.
Ballssssssss
I agree that good GA Ame's are hard to find, and in my opinion are probably the most valuable kind of AME in the business. They require a rounded set of skills that usually include sheet-metal, welding, machining and electical abilities. Having cut my teeth at a 3rd party AMO looking after roughly 35 floatplanes from Super-cubs to Beech 18's I learned in a hurry how to fix almost anything on a small aircraft and how to trouble-shoot efficiently. I find there are a lot of AME's around who have no idea how to actually fix something outside of doing simple re and re's. After spending some years specialized in turbine engines I am back into GA working on crummy old 'Hos and actually loving it. We are getting paid a bit better these days and there is nothing in this line of work that is more satisfying than fixing a difficult snag so the plane can make it's morning flight.
I think one of the reason that all the good AME's are leaving GA is that the above mentioned skills tend to make them an exceptional employee and valuable asset in any type of operation and the money, holidays, benefits and general treatment of personnel is far more desirable in large companies and different industries. I understand that I just made a very general statement and some GA operators treat their people well but the majority don't. I gave up an Engineering job (Not AME) in a large turbine engine based company to get back into GA 3rd party maintenance in a small community only to find that the small business I went to work for did everything they could to take advantage of labour code grey areas and loopholes in order to screw staff out of OT while pretty much leaving the guys with no options but to work 50 hr weeks, weekends and holidays without asking or warning. I left there in a hurry. There is a reason they can't keep experienced AME's there.
I am currently working for a GA company that is hands-down the best company I have ever worked for. With the increase in wages that we are experiencing maybe some of the good people will come back.
Ballssssssss
TT: don't care PIC: still don't care MPIC: really really don't care TURBINE: get a life.
Life's never fair, get a helmet.
Life's never fair, get a helmet.
Re: GA AME's
Good day AMO owner,
I started out in GA about 15 years ago, did about 7 years fixing small Pipers,Cessnas, Beavers and Chieftains. The work is great (as you mentioned) but I found that the hours worked were ridiculous and the pay was too low to be taken seriously. GA aviation is quite demanding, small operators pay big money for airplanes and parts and seem to demand an extremely flexible maintenance crew... while wanting that same maintenance to be inexpensive.The shifts worked seemed to change all the time and while I understand why the small operators want this flexibility, it makes family life quite hard and seems to create tension at home.
Another aspect to consider is the health and safety implications. The three small outfit I worked for had very little consideration for Health and safety. Airplanes were stripped in the hangar while other maintenance personnel worked on an airplane 30 feet away. I am sure the owner of the small outfit would have loved to have us stripping in another hangar but the reality is, that was the only hangar... The work had to be done...so health and safety be damn... Proper equipment was hard to get and except for breather mask.... there was very little in the way of protective equipment.
Good luck with your search for AMEs. Until the markets adjusts and the rates go up for AMOs (and therefore AMEs) it will be hard to find qualified personnel wanting to live in remote locations without significant premiums. It might be worth your while to try and send some of the locals to a training school such as Stevenson Aviation Technical training Center in Manitoba.The program is a COOP education system where you go to school 2 months per year and work the rest of the year. Training locals increases your chances of retaining them later on. Such a program will not help your short term man power problems but could be useful for solving future ones...
Good Luck
Éric
I started out in GA about 15 years ago, did about 7 years fixing small Pipers,Cessnas, Beavers and Chieftains. The work is great (as you mentioned) but I found that the hours worked were ridiculous and the pay was too low to be taken seriously. GA aviation is quite demanding, small operators pay big money for airplanes and parts and seem to demand an extremely flexible maintenance crew... while wanting that same maintenance to be inexpensive.The shifts worked seemed to change all the time and while I understand why the small operators want this flexibility, it makes family life quite hard and seems to create tension at home.
Another aspect to consider is the health and safety implications. The three small outfit I worked for had very little consideration for Health and safety. Airplanes were stripped in the hangar while other maintenance personnel worked on an airplane 30 feet away. I am sure the owner of the small outfit would have loved to have us stripping in another hangar but the reality is, that was the only hangar... The work had to be done...so health and safety be damn... Proper equipment was hard to get and except for breather mask.... there was very little in the way of protective equipment.
Good luck with your search for AMEs. Until the markets adjusts and the rates go up for AMOs (and therefore AMEs) it will be hard to find qualified personnel wanting to live in remote locations without significant premiums. It might be worth your while to try and send some of the locals to a training school such as Stevenson Aviation Technical training Center in Manitoba.The program is a COOP education system where you go to school 2 months per year and work the rest of the year. Training locals increases your chances of retaining them later on. Such a program will not help your short term man power problems but could be useful for solving future ones...
Good Luck
Éric
Re: GA AME's
There may be some guys who may be willing to work on a rotational basis,if conditions were right. Something to consider?
Re: GA AME's
I left GA 4 years ago to get into the airlines. When i started right out of school it was great experience but as time went on and I got married i found it really difficult to explane to my wife that i wouldnt be able to take her out that weekend because some "three peice suit" type wanted his annual done on the weekend so he could fly south for the winter. " Dont find anything boys" as he headed out the door after dropping his Airplane off at 4:00 friday night. Why should i sacrifice my life for him...? And further more, the one thing that really pissed me off was "watch your hours, we can only bill him for a hour to replace that....." I know its a competitive buisness but, come on this isnt Deltech automotive. Do it right.
Dissagree with me if you want.
I enjoyed it, but i wouldnt go back. Much rather work OT to get 35 people to there destination safely rather than one guy who cant even be botherd to thank you for finding the leaking fuel line in the engine compartment.
Dissagree with me if you want.
I enjoyed it, but i wouldnt go back. Much rather work OT to get 35 people to there destination safely rather than one guy who cant even be botherd to thank you for finding the leaking fuel line in the engine compartment.
Re: GA AME's
So you're saying that you left GA for the airlines for the convenient hours? That is one of the few perks typically assiciated with GA. If there is an airline out there operating a 9-5 Mon. to Fri........ where do I sign up?
Re: GA AME's
I dont work 9 to 5 monday to friday. but my time off is my time off and there are enought guys to work on my days off so, its rare that i get called in.
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SeptRepair
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Re: GA AME's
Well I will give you some perspective from my point of view. Ive been in Aviation for about 20 years. Everything from Cubs to The Martin Mars. Lived and breathed piston aircraft. I left the General Aviation part of it 6 years ago partly to the ignorantly low wages. It has been summed up nicely previous to this post. From paint stripping into the hangar, to the obnoxious tight assed aircraft owner who bullies you into "not finding" anything. Fortunately i grew balls and never succumbed to that bully tactic, but yet still had to endure that mentality on a daily basis. The guy showing up on a Friday at 4:00 looking to get that 100 hr done, so he can fly out Monday morning was too common of a problem i got sick of. Proverbial rock and a hard place. P*ss off your old lady at home, P*ss off the boss, or P*ss off the customer? No matter the decision, you were not liked by one of the three for the next few days. Or how about that same guy demanding his aircraft be inspected for that Monday flight only to not show up till the following Wednesday because he changed his mind and decided not to leave like planned. All this for 20/hr and no OT ( regardless if the labor law was being broken)
I was lucky, i had a good buddy who took me under his wing and mentored me in sheet metal knowing how frustrated i was getting. The wages were far better and the hours much more predictable. Got my S license and never looked back. I even took it further ( and like most engineers i know) have become a Contract Engineer. As luck would have it again i got a gig working on helicopters and have been on them ever since. No reason a good Engineer cant make at least 80 k a year. I don't have to talk to the aircraft owner and don't have to wear a respirator while im cleaning spark plugs. Now tell me what GA place is going to pay a guy that?, let alone have working conditions that don't border on a third world atmosphere. I feel for the small AMO who has a guy trying his darnest to not follow the status quo, and i wish you luck finding someone to fill the void that is becoming too common a problem throughout GA. Currently i work 5 days a week, maybe average a 9 hr day and don't have a wife that hates me at least every second weekend. Well not because of work anyways.
PS. For curiosity sakes, what are you paying hourly for a Contract Engineer?
I was lucky, i had a good buddy who took me under his wing and mentored me in sheet metal knowing how frustrated i was getting. The wages were far better and the hours much more predictable. Got my S license and never looked back. I even took it further ( and like most engineers i know) have become a Contract Engineer. As luck would have it again i got a gig working on helicopters and have been on them ever since. No reason a good Engineer cant make at least 80 k a year. I don't have to talk to the aircraft owner and don't have to wear a respirator while im cleaning spark plugs. Now tell me what GA place is going to pay a guy that?, let alone have working conditions that don't border on a third world atmosphere. I feel for the small AMO who has a guy trying his darnest to not follow the status quo, and i wish you luck finding someone to fill the void that is becoming too common a problem throughout GA. Currently i work 5 days a week, maybe average a 9 hr day and don't have a wife that hates me at least every second weekend. Well not because of work anyways.
PS. For curiosity sakes, what are you paying hourly for a Contract Engineer?
How can you tell which one is the pilot when you walk into a bar?....Don't worry he will come up and tell you.
