How would you change the Flight Training Industry?

[tired of the ground]

So I had a bit of a rant in a previous thread that I thought deserved its own thread:

Get rid of all the bull in flight training. Back to the basics of 30 years ago; common sense flying, seat of the pants, hands and feet. Get your PPL the old fashioned way but raise the experience requirements. You have to have 2000 hours before you can get an instructor rating. Cost of flight training goes up because guys will not jump out of the left seat of a King Air to instruct for 15g a year. We now have 100g a year instructors, who want to be there, producing top notch students. A bunch of schools will close BUT the general pilot population will be much better trained and equipped to handle themselves.

You now get to do an apprenticeship to get your CPL. You have certain tasks/maneuvers that must be signed off by your training captains that you are safe to do by yourself. Each task must be signed by two different training captains so that you can't have some rogue training captain signing of crappy pilots. You could only be the PF on legs that are empty or only Cargo. Once you have all your tasks completed, you have to do a ride with your Chief Pilot to get you CPL signed off with the completion of the ground tests.

The ground tests consist of an interview. No more BS exams that test your English comprehension. Chat about rules and regulations and the examiner gets an idea of how much you really know, not how well you memorized the questions the weekend before.

No more PPC Bull. You do a ride to prove competence with the CP at the end of your recurrent training each year.

Time for your ATPL. You don't get an ATPL by smashing around in the circuit. You get an ATPL by doing an apprenticeship. You sit in the right seat of an aircraft that requires an ATPL to be Captain of. Again it's tasks/maneuvers and a ride with the CP that will get you your ATPL along with the interview for the ground stuff.



So now is the question. How would you change how flight training is done?

[TripleBFlyboy]

Great, so only kids with mommy and daddies big money can be a pilot, professionally.

100g's a year, AVGAS being 1.57/L today...... $$$$$

[Hedley]

Sigh. Way back when, the same argument was
being made - "We can't afford to pay flight instructors
minimum wage because it would make flight training
too expensive".

Since then, insurance premiums have skyrocketed.
Rates went up. Fuel costs have skyrocketed. Rates
went up.

And guess what, the flight instruction business is now
busier than ever, and the same argument is being make
that flight instructors should take some goddamned
vow of poverty. What nonsense.

Anyways. My suggestion for improving flight
training in Canada is to get rid of the whole
airline-inspired FTU OC requirement. If you're
a flight instructor, and you get your hands on
a buck fifty, you can flight instruct.

Heavens to murgatroyd, you say - we can't
have that. Not enough overhead!

Well, that's exactly the way it is in the USA,
and I might mention that Transport and the
FAA have licence reciprocity, so the old "Our
Licences are SO much better than their
Licences" argument is hogwash, too.

[Cat Driver]

Anyways. My suggestion for improving flight
training in Canada is to get rid of the whole
airline-inspired FTU OC requirement. If you're
a flight instructor, and you get your hands on
a buck fifty, you can flight instruct.

And there kids is the answer.

If that were to come into effect I would renew my rating and start up a small school that would turn out pilots that would not leave the landscape littered with wrecked airplanes as we see happening today.

[tired of the ground]

Great, so only kids with mommy and daddies big money can be a pilot, professionally.

100g's a year, AVGAS being 1.57/L today...... $$$$$

Actually, it would probably not cost much more. The whole purpose of an apprenticeship is that you get paid while you are learning. Therefore you would only have to cough up for the private. Essentially your company would be paying for you to learn on cargo/empty legs.

The whole point is that we are artificially lowering the cost of flying. Not everyone can afford to fly certified aircraft. If you don't have much cash and want to fly, go gliding or ultralights. There are other options.

The main point is we are already having people getting paid less than minimum wage and people are still bitching about how expensive flight training is.

[Doc]

What a simple solution to a long term problem. Guys would be able to handle a 5mph cross wind! WOW. It'll never happen Cat. TC has dug themselves to deep a hole in "stupid" to ever climb out to common sense. Never, has any government branch made a move towards "simple".

[Doc]

Flight training has been too long the domain of the rich spoiled brats. Or the recipients of student loans, government grants, or tax payer's dollars. You do get the odd guy, who actually has a job, work his way through the PPL, but mostly, it's the "Royal Bank of Mommy and Daddy".
Then we have companies that perpetuate the problem (mind set?) by actually charging even more money to hire your spoiled child.
Small FTUs are a thing of the past. TC has made it virtually impossible for a real "Flying Club" kind of atmosphere to even exist. Students come out of the "puppy mills" that are today's flight schools, with ego, attitude, and great expectations. (Are you all really pissed at me yet?)
But, a hell of a lot of them, (way too many) can't fly. Really. I've had guys who really can't land in a cross wind. They don't even know what to do with their hands and feet. Do they not train this?
I guess, this kind of training is Okay if you're headed to Jazz, or AC. Maybe there should be two types of flight schools? One aimed at turning out the FOs of the future? The other, geared to teach "pilots" to "fly"?
I dunno.

[Cat Driver]

Maybe TC Guy can post some of their solutions to this downward spiral of the training industry Doc.

Seems to me they should reconsider banning those of us who actually know how to turn out good pilots rather than robots.

[aero220]

I guess, this kind of training is Okay if you're headed to Jazz, or AC. Maybe there should be two types of flight schools? One aimed at turning out the FOs of the future? The other, geared to teach "pilots" to "fly"?
I dunno.

May not be as far off as you think with the advent of the MPL.

[l_reason]

Why not just twist the rules to make it work. With all the crap in Ontario forcing flight schools to cough up tons of cash if they want to teach CPL or instructor. Do whatever is needed to avoid needing an OC.

What if one person (I’ll call him Chief) has a couple of C-150’s and leases them out to youngsters or sells the “student” a 1/10 share for $5000 and keeping 5/10 (majority control) of the aircraft shares. Once the student owns the aircraft he could hire a freelance instructor to teach him his PPL and CPL. It would happen that the Chief would know just the right freelance instructor for the job. The instructor would cost about $50-70 per hour. Once the training is done a year later the student sells that overpriced 1/10 share back to Chief or to the next student.

Operational costs of the aircraft would have to be worked into the lease or ownership agreement. No more requirement for the aircraft to be on a TC commercial maintenance program. I’m not saying that the aircraft would be ill maintained it just doesn’t have to conform to the TC BS. The only rules the student has to follow are the CARS and what’s written in the POH. Special VFR and 18knot cross winds make for good pilots not bad ones.

Even better then just having a C-150 would be having a few aircraft, something on floats (Cats homebuilt cub), x-country IFR 172, and a twitchy Luscombe for tailwheel training. You only need to be the owner of the aircraft for the PPL and CPL hours the other 100hrs can be rented from Chief.

In ONE year they would have a CPL, 25 hours on floats 50 tail-wheel and group 3 IFR.

never mind it would never work

[Cat Driver]

never mind it would never work :wink

:

Oh yes it would..

[Kelowna Pilot]

May not be as far off as you think with the advent of the MPL.

Do you really think AC, Jazz and Westjet are going to snap up all these MPL grads?

Why would they? Air Canada, among others, has a ton of applicants on file who have a very high experience level.

The only reason AC would take MPL graduates is to get away with scaling back pay and benefits... oh wait, I hope Milton didn't hear that... oh well, I'm sure him and his bean counters know it already...

[l_reason]

Chief = Cat?

when do we start?

[wxnut]

i'd change how flight training is like any other University course ... take it online, get some instructor ur friends with to recommend you for the test, bs your 'selfstudy' hrs and get a license.... to be honest that's what aviation in canada has come down to.

First I want some solid training b4 the Solo stage. Why only 8hrs of solo before some person can command a plane? come on.. .anybody can drive a car after their 8th hour of practice, but are they really fit to drive on black ice? same with flying... the student knows how to access basic issues, sure you go over forced approaches but you think it's gonna stick? no... so i want to see some definite change with the way we're sending students solo with ridiculous amount of experience. Why even PIC flying when the student isn't even 1/4 through his training? Start sending guys solo when they have shown proof of the written or something, at least there's a larger knowledge base on what the carb heat really is - i swear if you ask a PPL right now about what a carb heat is... he/she'll be like umm, well it melts ice away to prevent engine stop... lol, an answer as simple as that ain't gonna get u into ACA when ur asked about how N1 Power is Related to N2 power.

Second, me included, what's this with the possibility to get prepped for an exam in 3 days? the commercial one that is? like what the hell... i am lucky to have a very close friend of mine teaching me and taking me on educational flights that really helps me learn decision making and dead reckoning in flying,,, but i bet not many of us out there have this. How is it that I can bs my way through a week worth of study, pass the written, take a protein shake, do well on my flight test and be called a commercial pilot? You guys got any idea how much JAA rapes pilots to give them a standard PPL ? lol i swear the number of pilots here wouldn't be posting cause they'd have to study so much... there'd be no time for avcanada lol.

Third, a filtering of good instructors. There are good ones, and there are bad ones. How is it that an 18 year old guy is teaching a 17 year old guy how to fly? lol... i might be one of those 19 year old instructors and it sounds hypocritical but it's wrong. I m not going to be able to teach to the level that my CFI is going to prep that student pilot for his career. Shouldn't we be taught by true professionals who have been stuck in 1mile vis, low fuel, and icing on the wings with no local airport to land at... what the hell am i, gonna teach a student... All i see after take off is the states to the south, mountains to the north... and i know how to navigate through the southern 150 mile radius of the rockies that all by the way have rivers leading to lower mainland in some shape or form.


I unno... what else? there's a ton.

[TC Guy]

Maybe TC Guy can post some of their solutions to this downward spiral of the training industry Doc.

I don't have any magic solutions, Cat.

When I entered this industry some 20+ years ago, it was really no different. Instructors were paid poorly, and many (most? all?) left to better, greener pastures that they could afford to raise a family, own a car, and maybe(!?) a house. Things that people from previous generations take for granted.

The current state of the industry is nothing new.

Are their some barriers to starting a flight school in Canada? Yes. There are requirements -- many more than in some other countries. BC and Ontario has yet MORE requirements for those that train towards vocational training. Much of these rules came from industry lobying, and private post secondary training institutions taking students money with very little recourse and then shutting down (not just aviation, but there are certainly some great examples). Deal with it, or lobby to change it.

In some cases, small flight schools have closed -- some due to lack of business, some due to circumstance (it is tough to make a living running a small school!) and some due to mismanagement. I have even seen some schools in the last year fold because of the inability to find qualified Instructors!

Is there an answer? I can suggest a starting point: Pay your people well. Make Instructing an honorable and desirable occupation. Insist on nothing less than the best from your Instructors. And please, TREAT THEM WELL.

I have heard some of the larger schools are starting programs where they will recuit the best Instructors and then put them on structured program that, in a few short years, will give them the PIC, Multi, ATR and in some cases Turbine experience to make the jump to an Airline career. Wow... what a neat idea. I can see the best and brightest lining up for that.

Honestly, to look to government to legislate the industry into making it better is rather silly. Change will start with the flight schools, not TC.

So, Cat... there ya go. Flame away.

-Guy

[Hedley]

to look to government to legislate the industry into making it better is rather silly

How about the government consider de-legislating to try
to help?

It now takes a year to get a simple FTU OC from Transport.

And Ontario is actively legislating small flight schools out of
existence with their "career college" BS. I talked personally to
the obnoxious civil servant in Toronto that was pushing this,
and I explained that small schools that didn't take money on
account weren't a problem, and why was she trying to fix
something that wasn't a problem with such dreadful effects?

Typical government employee, she told me she didn't care.

[Cat Driver]

So, Cat... there ya go. Flame away.

Hedley has it right, get TC the fu.k out of our lives with their ever increasing layers of restrictions and demands on how we should run a business.

Having someone in some cubicle thinking up new requirements to further strangle us and frustrate us to the point we throw up every time we see one of you guys is driving the industry ever deeper into despair.

Just look at the insane B.S. that poor bastard MichaelP is going through with TC and their mindless demands re the maintenance program on his airplanes....

How can someone so stupid they do not even understand what a STC is hold a job with TC and have the power to stop you from earning a living?

Yeh TC Guy J.D. one of your finest in the Pacific Region caused me unending grief because the stupid moron actually did not understand what a STC is.....

.....it is on record....unbelivable but true..

So there is a suggestion TC Guy, let us run our own affairs within the rules without having to deal with morons from your offices.

[trey kule]

TC Guy wrote

I have heard some of the larger schools are starting programs where they will recuit the best Instructors and then put them on structured program that, in a few short years, will give them the PIC, Multi, ATR and in some cases Turbine experience to make the jump to an Airline career. Wow... what a neat idea. I can see the best and brightest lining up for that.

1. Flight Safety in Florida already has a similar program in place. They also have an extensive instructor course and excellent oversight. We could learn a lot from the successful ones. No "cheap deals here". No starting whenever or "revolving" ground schools.

2. TC simply can not get out of the business. Look at the threads here. There would be some really sleazy operators getting into the training business, and when the inevitable accident happens, everyone would be holding TC responsible for "not doing anything". does not take much imagination to anticipate what the reaction would be.

3. We can simplify the procedure a great deal, both in the obtaining of licenses, and in the operation. Will that result in more people becoming career instructors, making a better living, and being treated fairly....I have my doubts. The Canadian way seems never to give value for money..Charge as much as you can, or worse try and undercut everyone, and then trim costs....

Hope this gives some balance to the ravers.

[Cat Driver]

So there is a suggestion TC Guy, let us run our own affairs within the rules without having to deal with morons from your offices.

Please read the above....

TCCA is mandated to oversee the rules, however they are making up so many that it has become counter productive.

They can start to improve by getting rid of the morons they have in their employ...I believe I have pointed out a few who qualify as morons.

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source - Share This
mo·ron /ˈmɔrɒn, ˈmoʊr-/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[mawr-on, mohr-] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. a person who is notably stupid or lacking in good judgment.

[MichaelP]

that poor bastard MichaelP

My parents were married when I was born... I wish they weren't though, I might have had a happier upbringing without that Irish temper!

I flew the Sportstar to Chilliwack yesterday while Aki took a Katana there for complete refurbishment of interior and paint.
I want good well maintained aeroplanes, and I resent the fact that I am punished for the idiots out there who skimped on maintenance and paying the proper price to keep us all safe and happy flying aeroplanes in Canada.

If you look at the aeroplanes on the line outside, a lot of them are in an awful state.
When a Cessna 172 landed on 25 when 12 was in use, it had just made it without any fuel... TC came down and grounded most of the aircraft as they had a lot of maintenance problems...
That was a couple of years ago, and if you look at the same fleet now, that fleet another two years older is falling into a worse state.

When people look at our aeroplanes I don't want them to look at them and think, 'well this is what I can afford, and this condition is alright...'
In the USA most schools have aeroplanes that are in a lot better condition than ours, and a lot of schools have newer aeroplanes too... They sell their sad old Cesspits to the poor Canadians up north...
In the UK they'd condemn some of the aeroplanes on this field as suitable only for scrap!

Many years ago a Cessna 172M came to Redhill from Canada... The CAA looked at it and it was scrapped! It would still be flying here in Canada!

There was a time when Canadian schools bought new aeroplanes, but that was thirty or forty years ago in a better economy when people were perhaps a little less moaning.
But we are poorer these days, the government has decided to spend its people's money on things like Quebec, official bilingualism, and Political Correctness, this means more taxes!
Houses are more expensive, now two people work and it costs both their salaries to buy one. I grew up when one salary was enough and mothers could stay at home.
So we cut our outlays on things like aircraft maintenance as they are less important.

Back to the Sportstar, it's an LSA in the USA, and it's a type that people throughout the World can get their PPLs on, but Canada hasn't got any regulations for these yet. TC is looking at it and maybe in two years we'll have our own version of LSA...

But now, if you want to learn to fly and don't care a less about a licence, an ultralight permit will do, then you can learn on an aircraft like the SportStar and fly anywhere in Canada in a modern aircraft with good performance.
Ultralight flying here is less regulated than microlight flying (BCAR S) is in England.
An ultralight school does not have to go through the processes a full fledged certified aeroplane school has to, it can charge the same rates, and can actually turn a profit!
Airflow Aviation at King George is for sale if anyone wants to give it a try!
If I want to do Ultralight Training in the Sportstar, all I have to do is send a letter to TC!
No MCMs, no reapprovals of already approved maintenance schedules taking up to several months... TC doesn't want to know, and yet this segment of the aviation community often has the most up to date aeroplanes that exist today!

Given doing a PPL in a rotten old Cessna 152 or an Ultralight Permit in a brand new aeroplane for the same cost, there's no contest if all you want to do a is fly and have no airline aspirations.

What is it about the CPL that you have to fly out dated equipment before you fly the glass cockpit wonders while if you were not bothered you can learn that way at low cost?
We're idiots in a system that stalls us when we could fly modern aircraft without bothering too much about TC at all!

If the systems we have prove to provide greater safety for us than the ultralight crowd, then they'd be worth it!
But what I see is probably more accidents per hour in our aeroplanes than there is in ultralights...

Has anyone got the statistics on accidents per thousand hours in Ultralights as compared with Certified Aeroplanes?

[Hedley]

Has anyone got the statistics on accidents per thousand hours in Ultralights as compared with Certified Aeroplanes?

I'd be interested to see that. An awful lot of people around
here (Ontario) have died in ultralights in the last few years.

There is no legal requirement to maintain their 2-stroke
engines which often fail. Some years ago, one of the
ultralight instructors around here used to brag that he
had 25 engine failures. I'm sure he must be double
that by now.

Problem is that a low-time ultralight pilot may not
handle the engine failure as easily as their instructor.
This has resulted in several fatalities around here.

Also, even though ultralights are buried in paper
(unlike the USA) they have dreadful handling
characteristics. I cannot believe people intentionally
produce aircraft that fly so poorly.

One popular ultralight here in eastern Canada is
highly laterally unstable. You turn left, it rolls
left requiring you to use RIGHT aileron to oppose
the left roll! There was a fatality at the Oshawa
airshow a couple years back of an Air Canada
captain who ran out of aileron. Also, the adverse
yaw is simply unbelievable.

I know I'm showing my age, but fer chrissakes,
you'd be a lot better off with a cub or champ
or chief or taylorcraft.

[MichaelP]

I'm not so interested in the bad old days of two stroking it, but rather the more modern times of Rotax 912s Rans S6 and 7 type aeroplanes...
The ultralight fraternity has largely out grown those bad old days.

I expect we'd see a strong downward trend in the accident rates since the early 80's in Ultralight Aircraft while the Light Aircraft accident rate is probably quite stable.
Certainly the experience around King George has been for a large reduction in the accident rate as they got rid of those awful Beavers and took on proper aeroplanes like the Rans S6.

The SportStar Ultralight, like many 'Ultralight' aircraft in Canada is not what I would call an Ultralight!
.'s multi engine CriCri has two single cylinder engines, and I flew the Turbulent with a 1500cc VW engine. They are more what I would call ultralight.

[Cat Driver]

Actually my Cri Cri is registered as as a amateur built airplane C-GSIB.

[MichaelP]

Actually my Cri Cri is registered as as a amateur built airplane C-GSIB.

I know that...
Many aircraft I have flown in the past have been lighter than some of the 'Ultralights' flying today.

[AV8OR]

The SportStar is actually an "advanced" ultralight, unlike the 2-stroke basic ultralight.