lets do something about terrible pilot wages in Canada!!!!

[Kelowna Pilot]

I for one am tired of having the reputation as a pilot as being a whiner

You're looking at it the wrong way...

It's like the army.... the officers don't mind it when the rankers 'whine'... it's when the rankers 'stop' whining that they get worried because it means there is something very wrong.

[Cat Driver]

Only you can have any input into low wages....you don't work for low wages..end of problem.

[Reality]

Only you can have any input into low wages....you don't work for low wages..end of problem.

Well said Cat, You would think I worked for Transport Canada. It took me 2000 words for me to say what you did...... And it even confused me.

[Kelowna Pilot]

Only you can have any input into low wages....you don't work for low wages..end of problem.

So basically you're saying switch careers?

It's not like you're going to walk into the interview at CMA, Air Canada, wherever, and say, "Sorry, I'm not working for anything less than $80,000 per year to start".

They'll just say: "Okay, bye-bye... Next!".

[Liquid Charlie]

I have seen this kind of issue long before the internet -- then we could only whine and cry in the cockpit or at the bar -- now we have thousands to listen too instead of half a dozen. We tend to judge from our point of view -- Damn I'm sure that most airlines would love to pay more but we are a self centered bunch and who cares if we incur training expenses only to leave for a "better" job a few months later -- there are a few guys out there who get it -- we are also part the problem not entirely the employers -- be thankful you get a chance to build some time -- the money will come but no one wants to pay top dollar for an apprentice -- welcome to the real world -- flight schools and colleges(who are also in business and after your money too) fill peoples' heads with delusions of grandeur.

There is a very simple equation for the entry level carrier -- higher the salaries the fewer the jobs. Do you think a guy sitting in the right seat of a light airplane (under 25,000 lbs) is worth a starting wage of 60K -- NFL -- for those in the left seat at such an operation 60K would be a reasonable place to start. I find with such carriers it's always "let's make a deal" and if you have established yourself and they like and respect you the doors just might open if not I'm sure they could care less and will tell you not to let the door hit you in the ass on the way out. Most issues at a small carrier are always reduced to a personal level when dealing with the boss. Never think there is objective thinking or rational decisions made when something goes wrong - all they know is something didn't go as planned and react.


So now -- can we have a cheese with the whine

[Reality]

Well said to you 2 Liquid Charlie.

[Flybaby]

It's not like you're going to walk into the interview at CMA, Air Canada, wherever, and say, "Sorry, I'm not working for anything less than $80,000 per year to start".

They'll just say: "Okay, bye-bye... Next!".

More people should demand more money or walk. I make more than CMA left seat and fly a smaller plane; well that's not hard to do, just about any float job or decent left seat does. Unless this industry goes to the shitter again nobody should accept crap pay like that. We all want to move home eventually, but I also want to make more money than my high school drop out friends that go to work half cut. @#$!, career rampies make more than CMA pays.

@#$!, I didn’t know that avcanada is fucking auto censoring fucking bad fucking language now.
OK, @#$! is bad, but Fucking is alright, check.

[DHC3Rwannafly]

1) Stop comparing Pilots to Doctors....we're not paid based on what we spend for our training.
2) If your unhappy with your wages, then change companies....I've seen alot of places wages, and like any job, it comes with seniority. My job pays well, I'm not complaining. I don't know what experience you have union, but I gather the majority of complainers are the ones who want to get to the top right away and make the big bucks. It always seems to be the right seat wonders who are bitching about $$$ and cleaning the airplanes. How many people here are senior FO's or Captains and complaining about your wages and how many are low time fo's? I'd like to see exactly who's complaining here....Is it bearskin captains, making around 70k? or FO's making 40k? is it Perimeter capt's making upwards to 80k? Please do tell.......

[Valcore]

@$#!, I didn’t know that avcanada is fucking auto censoring fucking bad fucking language now.
OK, @$#! is bad, but Fucking is alright, check.

Simply awesome!

[carholme]

Valcore wrote "Simply Awsome" and that would seem to be so for these entire two pages.

Some kid comes on here with two posts in total, four years experience in the business, implies that with those four years he is a "professional pilot" and everybody is pouring their hearts out to him. He could be working for a newspaper for all you know.

Simply Awsome is correct!

carholme

[Lommer]

...

[Dust Devil]

What really angers me about this industry is that 90% of pilots (new and old) feel it's "right" for starting FO's to wash planes, clean, etc. You don't like my comparison of doctor or engineers? Fine.. I worked in the corporate world and I have NEVER seen an accountant, teacher, hell.. even an arts student have to clean for their companies to "get insight into the industry" so they can one day MAYBE do what they were trained for.

Seems to me Truck Drivers wash their trucks and Mechanics clean their tools. I see no reason a pilot can't scrub a plane. To expect small companies with one or two planes to employ groomers is just silly.

[Cat Driver]

Seems to me Truck Drivers wash their trucks and Mechanics clean their tools. I see no reason a pilot can't scrub a plane.

Entry level flying jobs in small companies who want you to keep your airplane clean are not asking for you to do something that is demeaning.

In fact cleaning your airplane can be considered a very close walk around check, sometimes it is amazing what you see and learn about your airplane whle you are washing it.

To expect small companies with one or two planes to employ groomers is just silly.

I agree.

[DHC3Rwannafly]

It all falls on the mentality these guys have "Oh, I'm a pilot, crisp white shirt and tie....I don't have to do anything but fly the plane...." Take pride in your job and get involved. You should treat it like your own car....do you hire people to wash your sports car? Anyways this post is stupid....let the complainers continue complaining, their poor work ethic will show through more so at their jobs than on avcanada.

[185/310]

What do pilots do best, we bitch and complain, and we will continue to bitch and complain for years to come. Certain pilots want to change the industry but there will always be the other group of pilots that dont care or will fight the change for whatever reason. Its the industry we all knowingly got into.

[sky's the limit]

What really angers me about this industry is that 90% of pilots (new and old) feel it's "right" for starting FO's to wash planes, clean, etc. You don't like my comparison of doctor or engineers? Fine.. I worked in the corporate world and I have NEVER seen an accountant, teacher, hell.. even an arts student have to clean for their companies to "get insight into the industry" so they can one day MAYBE do what they were trained for.

Seems to me Truck Drivers wash their trucks and Mechanics clean their tools. I see no reason a pilot can't scrub a plane. To expect small companies with one or two planes to employ groomers is just silly.

Good grief! Somebody call CBC, Dust Devil and I agree...! Drinks on me everyone.....

I wash my machine at the end of every week at least, more if it's very dirty job. In the bush during the summer, I'll land in a creek a give it a scrub, whatever it takes. We NEVER leave a dirty helicopter for the next pilot, vacuum, clean the windows, tail rotor and then grease it if need be. That applies to a 500hr guy, or a 20,000hr guy. Simply not accepted in our company culture.

Get over yourselves and understand there's a job to be done, often there's considerable overlap in duties, just do what it takes to make the company you work for successful. They're successful, you're successful.


stl

[Pile-it]

The point is the disparity in earning potential is unlike any other line of work or profession. Even at the earliest stages of our careers, we have a responsibility that is in great disparity with our financial remuneration. Education cost vs compensation is initially laughable. At the end of our careers the income is economic recovery. We are our own worst enemies...

[Dust Devil]

What really angers me about this industry is that 90% of pilots (new and old) feel it's "right" for starting FO's to wash planes, clean, etc. You don't like my comparison of doctor or engineers? Fine.. I worked in the corporate world and I have NEVER seen an accountant, teacher, hell.. even an arts student have to clean for their companies to "get insight into the industry" so they can one day MAYBE do what they were trained for.

Seems to me Truck Drivers wash their trucks and Mechanics clean their tools. I see no reason a pilot can't scrub a plane. To expect small companies with one or two planes to employ groomers is just silly.

Good grief! Somebody call CBC, Dust Devil and I agree...! Drinks on me everyone.....

I wash my machine at the end of every week at least, more if it's very dirty job. In the bush during the summer, I'll land in a creek a give it a scrub, whatever it takes. We NEVER leave a dirty helicopter for the next pilot, vacuum, clean the windows, tail rotor and then grease it if need be. That applies to a 500hr guy, or a 20,000hr guy. Simply not accepted in our company culture.

Get over yourselves and understand there's a job to be done, often there's considerable overlap in duties, just do what it takes to make the company you work for successful. They're successful, you're successful.


stl

Interesting you would refer to the CBC you communist bastard

jk

[sky's the limit]

Interesting you would refer to the CBC you communist bastard

jk

Communist??? What??? I know nothing of what you speak.....

[Strega]

I dont think anyone is complaining about washing their machine,, IF THEY ARE PAID TO DO SO!

I agree with Cat, if you dont want to work for the shitty wage, then dont! its that simple.

If everyone follows this simple rule, well wages will go up.

That being said, if some sub-min-wage paying operator is pissed that their pilot wont wash the plane after 8+ hours of flying for $70, BOO HOO!

It pisses me off to no end that companies lure low time pilots to the ramp to perform unskilled work, only so they may dangle the carrot in front of their faces in hopes that they may one day land a job in the right seat, all while paying peanuts, mind you I guess this is just "putting in your time" What a crock!!

In Calgary, There are companies that pay less to work the ramp than Tim Hortons does, This is not speculation, it is fact. If these companies had to pay "industry standard" wages for unskilled labour, they would need to pay double or perhaps triple what they currently are. But they hire low time pilots instead. How can the managment of these companies sleep at night, knowing their "valuable" employees are forced to take second jobs, generally non-skilled, and still wind up deficit spending while trying to live. (in places like Calgary)

The bottom line is we need to get rid of the Bottom feeder operators, and the bottom feeder pilots.


When Tim Hortons employees are earning more money than pilots, something needs to change!

Ask yourself this question,
Who should be paid more, the person that pumps gas into your plane? or the person that flies it? Should be simple right? NOT!

In NWO a couple years ago, one of the guys Great guy buy the way!) at an Avitat told me his salary, and it was almost double of what bearskin was paying new FOs!!! And he didnt have to front $10k to boot!


Just my two cents...

[Dust Devil]

When Tim Hortons employees are earning more money than pilots, something needs to change!

Why is that? I bet your typical Tim Hortons pulls in considerably more cash than a lot of 703 operators do in a day.

[Strega]

When Tim Hortons employees are earning more money than pilots, something needs to change!

Why is that? I bet your typical Tim Hortons pulls in considerably more cash than a lot of 703 operators do in a day.

Im sure some do, and some dont.

What Im saying is a skilled, trained pilot (that spent $50k+) on training should be paid better than the person that pours the double-double.

[Wilbur]

With few exceptions, employers in any field pay what they need to pay to attract and keep the staff they need/want. What your education and training cost you is irrelevent, the responsibilities you have are irrelevant.

There is an over-supply of entry level pilots, so employers do not need to pay much.

[Strega]

With few exceptions, employers in any field pay what they need to pay to attract and keep the staff they need/want. What your education and training cost you is irrelevent, the responsibilities you have are irrelevant.

There is an over-supply of entry level pilots, so employers do not need to pay much.

So a 4000hr FO at ACJ making 38k is still entry level?
Or is the 2500hr FO at CMA that makes 26k still the entry level position?



The solution is simple..

DONT WORK FOR SUCH LOW WAGES!!
one thing that just came to mind,,

Companies these days like to advertise "industry standard pay" Perhaps employess should be providing "industry standard performance" or in otherwords performance to the lowest common denominator.

for the pilots that are working for shit money, do only what you must, and be sure to tell your employer why you are only doing the minimum. After all, you do get what you pay for.

[Dust Devil]

for the pilots that are working for @#$! money, do only what you must, and be sure to tell your employer why you are only doing the minimum. After all, you do get what you pay for.

Those guys will be the first out the door