lets do something about terrible pilot wages in Canada!!!!

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What do you think?

Poll ended at Wed Mar 26, 2008 9:50 pm

Unwilling to do anything
6
4%
Love to fly and willing to fly for peanuts
2
1%
Knowingly got into this mess and thus dont feel hard done by
32
21%
Would consider a industry wide union
56
37%
Would consider a "one day nationwide walkout" and leave the public/airlines hanging to draw attention to poor pilot wages
30
20%
Think Airlines should all raise price equally at the same time
14
9%
Would rather ridicule this poll and tear it apart because of stupid little things like spelling errors and punctuation and turn it into a debate over buying PPc's
11
7%
 
Total votes: 151

Widow
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Re: lets do something about terrible pilot wages in Canada!!!!

Post by Widow »

It's established that pilots can make poor safety decisions when faced with certain operating pressures, such as methods of renumeraton. ( See SATOPs - Operating Pressures ) Can the discrepancies in pilot pay be attributed, in part, to differences in employee/contractor arrangements? I'm making an assumption that pilots can be both "employed" and/or "contracted".

I'm thinking about how, over the years in the forest industry, companies have gone more and more to contracting out work rather than "employing". They even get away with calling someone a "contractor" when, in fact, by CRA standards, they should be employees. The forestry watchdogs believe this has resulted in reduced safety, i.e. more deaths/injuries.

A couple of interesting, related threads:

Flight Time limitations
Labour code

And for reference:
The court has laid down four general principles to consider in determining whether a worker is an independent contractor or an employee. These principles are: Control, Ownership of Tools, Chance of Profit/Risk of Loss and Integration of Worker With Payer’s Company. Revenue Canada has adopted these four principles in its publication "Employed or Self-Employed?" and provides a series of questions to aid in the evaluation.

If a company (the payer) can answer NO to most of the following questions then the worker being hired is likely an independent contractor:

The payer decides how the work is to be done
The payer decides on the hours of work
The payer decides where the work must be performed
The payer assigns the individual tasks
The payer supervises the tasks
The payer pays for the required training
The payer controls who can perform the work
The payer supplies the necessary tools
The payer is responsible for repairs to tools
The payer is responsible for liability insurance
The payer is responsible for office expenses
The payer provides benefits (health, vacation, etc)
The worker is integrated into the overall structure of the company.
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Re: lets do something about terrible pilot wages in Canada!!!!

Post by trey kule »

Widow.

PM sent to you. Hope you received it.
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Re: lets do something about terrible pilot wages in Canada!!!!

Post by Unit »

If you don't like the pay, don't apply for the job. Stop being prostitutes! If people keep lining up to make bullshit money at places like Jazz, it'll never change. And, if a company hires you and trains you, stay for 1 lousy year, is that too much to ask? All you fuckers who skip out early on your employers (if you're treated fairly) should have your tickets pulled; you're to blame for the damn training bonds, and partly for the low salaries.
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Re: lets do something about terrible pilot wages in Canada!!!!

Post by Widow »

PM received trey kule ... and replied. Let me know if there was something else!
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Re: lets do something about terrible pilot wages in Canada!!!!

Post by DHC3Rwannafly »

Strega wrote:
Wilbur wrote:With few exceptions, employers in any field pay what they need to pay to attract and keep the staff they need/want. What your education and training cost you is irrelevent, the responsibilities you have are irrelevant.

There is an over-supply of entry level pilots, so employers do not need to pay much.

So a 4000hr FO at ACJ making 38k is still entry level?
Or is the 2500hr FO at CMA that makes 26k still the entry level position?



The solution is simple..

DONT WORK FOR SUCH LOW WAGES!!
one thing that just came to mind,,

Companies these days like to advertise "industry standard pay" Perhaps employess should be providing "industry standard performance" or in otherwords performance to the lowest common denominator.

for the pilots that are working for @#$! money, do only what you must, and be sure to tell your employer why you are only doing the minimum. After all, you do get what you pay for.
Here's an idea.....go complain to your employer...if he doesn't give you a raise, then go work at tim hortons and start up a timcanada.ca forum to bitch about that job.....Quit you bitching! No one on here is going to give you a raise!
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Re: lets do something about terrible pilot wages in Canada!!!!

Post by Liquid Charlie »

First -- Fact all pilots prostitute themselves for the first job -- it's industry standard -- but why are you still in that poor paying job -- suck it up -- deal with it -- most of us who have been "around" dealt with it and moved on - learn the work ethic before you hide behind a seniority list --



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Re: lets do something about terrible pilot wages in Canada!!!!

Post by Strega »

Dust Devil wrote:
Strega wrote: for the pilots that are working for @#$! money, do only what you must, and be sure to tell your employer why you are only doing the minimum. After all, you do get what you pay for.
Those guys will be the first out the door

So a company should expect more from a pilot than what they pay them for?
Hogwash!
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Re: lets do something about terrible pilot wages in Canada!!!!

Post by Strega »

Liquid Charlie wrote:First -- Fact all pilots prostitute themselves for the first job -- it's industry standard -- but why are you still in that poor paying job -- suck it up -- deal with it -- most of us who have been "around" dealt with it and moved on - learn the work ethic before you hide behind a seniority list --
Fact-- I didnt, its not standard, and I bet Im paid better than 95% of tthe members of this forum.

I would like to see all the dirtbags, from both sides of the fence, removed from this industry.
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Re: lets do something about terrible pilot wages in Canada!!!!

Post by Dust Devil »

Strega wrote:
I bet Im paid better than 95% of tthe members of this forum.
Then why are you so angry?
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Re: lets do something about terrible pilot wages in Canada!!!!

Post by Mr. North »

...because he cares about the welfare of his fellow aviator. Hard to believe isn't it DD?

And Liquid Charlie! If it's a "fact" that newbies must prostitiute themselves for their first job, wouldn't you agree it's something worth changing?!!! Just because you went through hell for your first job doesn't mean the next guy does. And if you think working for shit pay and under poor conditions develops proper work ethic then you have my sympathy. There are too many senior pilots like you out there who care only for #1 -to hell with everyone else. Shame on you all!
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Last edited by Mr. North on Tue Feb 12, 2008 6:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: lets do something about terrible pilot wages in Canada!!!!

Post by Dust Devil »

Mr. North wrote:...because he cares about the welfare of his fellow aviator. Hard to believe isn't it DD?
I interpret it the other way that he feels his fellow aviator is too naive to run their own lives.
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Re: lets do something about terrible pilot wages in Canada!!!!

Post by 'effin hippie »

So a 4000hr FO at ACJ making 38k is still entry level?
Or is the 2500hr FO at CMA that makes 26k still the entry level position?
Theoretically at least we are are still talking about union's ability to make our industry better. Right?

Well, these guys have unions. Pretty big ones.

If that's what the most unionized (and largest) companies in the country can get for the guys just starting with the company, then I guess you'd better just shut up and live with it Big Guy. I'm pretty sure the new hires are doing just fine a few years down the road.

ef
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Re: lets do something about terrible pilot wages in Canada!!!!

Post by Reality »

Strega wrote: I would like to see all the dirtbags, from both sides of the fence, removed from this industry.
Remove yourself, start there.
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Re: lets do something about terrible pilot wages in Canada!!!!

Post by Dust Devil »

'effin hippie wrote:
So a 4000hr FO at ACJ making 38k is still entry level?
Or is the 2500hr FO at CMA that makes 26k still the entry level position?
Theoretically at least we are are still talking about union's ability to make our industry better. Right?

Well, these guys have unions. Pretty big ones.

If that's what the most unionized (and largest) companies in the country can get for the guys just starting with the company, then I guess you'd better just shut up and live with it Big Guy. I'm pretty sure the new hires are doing just fine a few years down the road.

ef
That's actually a pretty good point
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Re: lets do something about terrible pilot wages in Canada!!!!

Post by Liquid Charlie »

I guess there is the difference -- I worked for low wages to start -- yup I was a whore -- and I loved it -- best part of my aviation career but having said that I went from $300/month to more money than I ever figured possible with that very same company in 5 years -- yup -- it was hard work but it was the best work -- so like I said -- suck it up -- maybe the problem is that you can't climb out of the hole you dug for yourself -- attitude is a funny thing -- it follows you around and this is a very small industry.

Now if you want a company that makes life great -- ask about Ryan Air -- disciplined for charging mobile phone with company power -- paying you own expenses for sim -- very low salaries in an area where cost of living is 3 times greater than here -- no matter how bad you think you are off here there is always someone doing worse.

Low salary to start at the majors is there way of recovering some of the training costs -- 2 year training bond if you will -- unions will never attack probationary pay levels --

I hope you are making more than 95% here if you are in Fort Mac -- you need it -



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Re: lets do something about terrible pilot wages in Canada!!!!

Post by Strega »

Mr. North wrote:...because he cares about the welfare of his fellow aviator. Hard to believe isn't it DD?

And Liquid Charlie! If it's a "fact" that newbies must prostitiute themselves for their first job, wouldn't you agree it's something worth changing?!!! Just because you went through hell for your first job doesn't mean the next guy does. And if you think working for @#$! pay and under poor conditions develops proper work ethic then you have my sympathy. There are too many senior pilots like you out there who care only for #1 -to hell with everyone else. Shame on you all!
Thanks goodness there is another person here that "gets it"

Everyone on this forum always makes discussions so personal. Why?

My point here is to help the new guy out that has $50k worth of student loans, and is trying to get by, and yes, with a positive attitude.

All the accomplishments I have made, have come from hard work. period. If I do a job, I expect to be paid according.
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Re: lets do something about terrible pilot wages in Canada!!!!

Post by Strega »

Strega wrote:
Dust Devil wrote:
Strega wrote: for the pilots that are working for @#$! money, do only what you must, and be sure to tell your employer why you are only doing the minimum. After all, you do get what you pay for.
Those guys will be the first out the door

So a company should expect more from a pilot than what they pay them for?
Hogwash!
no response here?
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Re: lets do something about terrible pilot wages in Canada!!!!

Post by Strega »

Reality wrote:
Strega wrote: I would like to see all the dirtbags, from both sides of the fence, removed from this industry.
Remove yourself, start there.

no comment...
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Re: lets do something about terrible pilot wages in Canada!!!!

Post by Strega »

'effin hippie wrote:
So a 4000hr FO at ACJ making 38k is still entry level?
Or is the 2500hr FO at CMA that makes 26k still the entry level position?
Theoretically at least we are are still talking about union's ability to make our industry better. Right?

Well, these guys have unions. Pretty big ones.

If that's what the most unionized (and largest) companies in the country can get for the guys just starting with the company, then I guess you'd better just shut up and live with it Big Guy. I'm pretty sure the new hires are doing just fine a few years down the road.

ef

CMA does not have a union for pilots
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Re: lets do something about terrible pilot wages in Canada!!!!

Post by Strega »

Liquid Charlie wrote:
Now if you want a company that makes life great -- ask about Ryan Air -- disciplined for charging mobile phone with company power -- paying you own expenses for sim -- very low salaries in an area where cost of living is 3 times greater than here -- no matter how bad you think you are off here there is always someone doing worse.

Low salary to start at the majors is there way of recovering some of the training costs -- 2 year training bond if you will -- unions will never attack probationary pay levels --

I hope you are making more than 95% here if you are in Fort Mac -- you need it -
Would you trust the staff of this "Ryan air" to fly your GF/wife or children around?

- if the majors want to recoup their training expenses, when do you as the pilot, get to recoup your training expenses? Should you not be able to profit from learning to fly at some point less than 10 years into your career?

- I only work in for mac, and live in Calgary, and Ive had plenty of excellent conversation with flight crews that have flown me there! One of them is actually cute ;)
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Re: lets do something about terrible pilot wages in Canada!!!!

Post by Strega »

for the record,

Large aircraft type ratings are not that expensive..

http://www.fti737.com/
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Re: lets do something about terrible pilot wages in Canada!!!!

Post by Reality »

O.K. STREGA, tell me why you think pilots should not pay their dues like everyone else????? Ya it is expensive to become a pilot but it eventually pay's off... Take the silver spoon out of your mouth for christ sake.. I payed my dues 6 years ago, I worked hard, did my job and I have climbed the ladder like a man and got to where I am today because I proved myself. If a person is not worth 10000 a month they should not get it. If they drag their ass and bitch and complain that they are so hard done by and somebody still pays them anything they should be that lucky. Prove yourself and you will be awarded.
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Re: lets do something about terrible pilot wages in Canada!!!!

Post by Strega »

Reality wrote:O.K. STREGA, tell me why you think pilots should not pay their dues like everyone else????? Ya it is expensive to become a pilot but it eventually pay's off... Take the silver spoon out of your mouth for christ sake.. I payed my dues 6 years ago, I worked hard, did my job and I have climbed the ladder like a man and got to where I am today because I proved myself. If a person is not worth 10000 a month they should not get it. If they drag their ass and bitch and complain that they are so hard done by and somebody still pays them anything they should be that lucky. Prove yourself and you will be awarded.
I too have "paid my dues"..

has the 2500 hr pilot that is right seat on a 704 commuter plane after 5 years of hard work not proven himself?

I dont expect that the new 230 hr pilot should be paid 50k,, but should they be at least paid a wage that is survivable, without a second job, and or plunging into debt?
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Re: lets do something about terrible pilot wages in Canada!!!!

Post by Flying Nutcracker »

You want better wages? Get the common person to pay more for their tickets! But that would mean that we would have to pay more when we travel... can't have that, or can we??? Has anyone actually considered the big picture?

The industry is back to better times because of restructuring and sacrifices. Don't forget that times are good because of it. If you want it back to where it was when pilots were paid decent money comparatively speaking... well you'll probably see a turn for the worse again!

It's all about #1, eh??? I think some pilots in general think of pilots as #1, to hell with profitability and revenue gains for their employer... who actually try to make a profit so they can sustain their company - your employment!

The way society is going, you probably will see a big crash as everyone is crying for more for less.

I am not happy with the situation myself, but at least I am sucking it up and living my life around it, not despite it! I guess I am a whore for doing that...

For a group of people who live their life in "situational awareness", I think there is a very narrow minded thought process within it!

There! Have at it! Have no mercy! Show some maturity and ethics!
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Re: lets do something about terrible pilot wages in Canada!!!!

Post by mabcan »

Strega wrote: ...
The solution is simple..
DONT WORK FOR SUCH LOW WAGES!!
...
Are you sure that's the solution ?
So, to follow your advise, if the guy refuses this kind of low salary, you will be the one to help him financially for the student's loan, feeding his family, apartment rental, medical care and so on ?
Do you have some other great ideas like this ?
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