Red pass

[thelastchance]

Hello everyone,

I need your input.

I am captain on a turboprop upnorth. I am an immigrant from Europe. I am not able to get the red pass from TC and the GRC. (I have been to too many countries apparently).

I have no criminal record, and I am clean, and nobody on earth can deny this fact. I just cannot give the proof of it.

Is there any chance to get one day the red pass in the future? I got my licence in Canada, have started my carrer very well. Now I am stuck.

Here is the real question: Can I make a decent career? Which is the best company in which I can fly not requiring a red pass? I am making 60000$ a year, do you think I would be able to make more in 10, 20, 30 years (I still have to fly more than 30 years)?

I would have been interested by the airlines, but I will have to forget them. What kind of flying I should think about?

I really need your advice guys. After having flown 4 years it seems that there is no future any more.

[husky]

I know several people who have had trouble getting the red pass for the reasons you mention, recent immigrant and/or visiting many countries. They were told that they may/would not get one, but kept after it for several months and all were eventually able to get one. Just be persistent and keep after it, jump through all the hoops they want you to, and eventually you WILL be able to get one. If they flat out tell you no, ask them for the denial in writing along with reasons why they are denying you. If they deny you, ask them what you can do to get your red pass in the future. Some people I know had to get police-record checks from every country they ever visited....just jump through any and all hoops.

[thelastchance]

Dear husky, thanks.

I will try again. What you say motivates me. It gives me some hope.

However I am interested by any good company's name using 2 crew airplanes and not asking the red pass in order to continue my career preogression by the time I hopefully get this pass.

[ch135146]

thelastchance:

I don't have any similar experience, but I do have experience with other government automatons. Husky's advice looks pretty good, especially about getting a refusal in writing. If you follow their rules and procedures to a reasonable point and still are not satisfied, contact your Member of Parliament (MP.) If that doesn't help, invest a few hundred dollars in a lawyer, probably one who specialises in labour law.

[thelastchance]

Dear ch135146,

Thank you, that' s an idea.
I really begin to think, after having read your answers, that there is a solution. I thought I got the answer from the GRC and could do nothing about that. But it seems that even if they don' t want to deliver me a red pass I should keep trying. Is there any others pilot who got their red pass after an initial refusal?
Is there any others pilot who have never been allowed a red pass?

[Liquid Charlie]

Couple of questions -- are you a Canadian citizen -- what is your ethnic background and the only suggestion I can give you is talk to a lawyer. -- Barring that I would start studying for my JAR licenses and further your career that way - there are wonderful opportunities outside of Canada and if u can hold an EU passport -- damn if I were younger I'd be gone in a flash

[thelastchance]

Thanks for your post liquid charlie.

I am not a canadian citizen, but I initially thought to become canadian.

I am a male caucasian.

Yes I may have to think to move back to Europe but what a waste of time! It took me 2 years to set everything and move to Canada.

I will try to continue my career in Canada for the moment.

[Dust Devil]

At what point do you need a red pass? Is it just if you are operating around the terminal of an airport?

[185/310]

I operated around smaller and bigger airports such as winnipeg, saskatoon, thunder bay etc for years and I didnt have a red pass. If your only operating out of FBOs it shouldnt be that much of a problem, and if your FO or Capt has one it should be even easier cause they can act as a escort if needed.

[thelastchance]

Hello just devil,

right now I don't absolutely need it, even if my employer want me to have one to work at one of their base down south.

Jazz (for example...) aswell require everyone to be able to have one.

For the futur it will be an obstacle for me, unless I want to fly turboprops everywhere but the big international airports all my life.

You are right 185/310.

However if you want to move for the airlines you are stuck. West jet, Jazz, air Canada are not based at Thunder bay unfortunately.

[Jaques Strappe]

thelastchance

I too am a male caucasion immigrant from Europe. I did take out Canadian Citizenship. If you are not in imminent need of a RAIC Red Pass, I would start working on your citizenship if you plan on staying here in Canada.

Once you have that in hand, you will be able to make a pretty strong case against not being issued a pass. I know for a fact that there are guys flying at the airlines along with ground handlers at our major hub airports with RED Passes and criminal records. Something that is not supposed to happen. Denying you one for simply visiting countries is discrimination.

The Pass itself is a joke and embarassment to the security of the travelling public, you are simply up against a bunch of pencil neck beaurocrats who are feeding at the public food trough.

Getting a Lawyer involved may not be a bad idea either.

[thelastchance]

Thanks a lot for your post Jaques stappe.

I will have to work on my citizenship, since the initial idea was to work and live in Canada.
If in addition it give me some more chance to get the red pass, i need to work on it immediately.

I am still wondering why a permanent resident doesn' t have the same rights and duties concerning this pass, I am a worker and a pilot afterall...

Thanks for your help. Nobody around me is in the same situation, so your post do help.

[Conquest Driver]

As far as I know the "window" on a red pass is 5 years. With a couple of exceptions, that's all they look at.

It would appear to be that you'll be fully elegible for a red pass after you've been in Canada for 5 years. So subtract the time you've been up north from 5 years and your situation may become manageable. Like you say, you've got 30 years left. In the interim you can fly for a fractional or corporate operator. Just about anyone who doesn't use the main terminals.

Best wishes with your situation. I've never been very comfortable with the pass system.

[thelastchance]

Conquest Driver,

If this is true I have some serious chance to be lucky if I try again in the near futur, let' s say 6 months.

Thanks everyone, it appears that now I have an idea about what I should do: Citizenship, 5 years in Canada, and try again with maybe a lawyer.

[V1RotateV2]

I had a similar experience. I called Ottawa and talked to the guy handling my case. Over the phone we discussed options. I emailed copies of all the paperwork he required and after 60 days I got the clearance.

Stay on top of it and work with them. All they need is to make sure that the Ts are crossed and all boxes checked. If the person working your case feels that his/her ass is covered, they will issue your RAIC.

Otherwise, they only look at the past 5 years. Just wait a little until your last 5 years are mostly Canada and maybe a couple of foreign countries and reaply.

Being a citizen or a PR will not make a difference. Other than voting you have the same rights.

[Cat Driver]

If having to many countries stamped in your passport and to many visas in it they will ban me from being within 100 miles of any Canadian airport.

[yycflyguy]

It took me 6 months to finally be awarded my Red Pass as I spent 4 years in what was viewed as a dangerous country in Central America. I laughed when they asked me for a police report stating that I had no police record. "sure" I said, "I can go back down and pay any cop on the corner $10 for a report, what would you like it to say?" The Ottawa bureaucrat on the other end agreed it wouldn't be necessary then. Like JS said, it is a joke that there are airline employees in "secure" areas that have criminal records and are allowed the pass. The process is slow if you aren't the "ideal" candidate but I also think they cannot deny you your right to earn a living. A letter to that effect from a lawyer got things going a bit quicker for me.

[thelastchance]

Thanks everyone.

They didn' t give me any options when they didn' t want to give this pass. Now I know that I have to insist.
Should my employer aply again, or can I reaply myself in few month?

[flyincanuck]

If having to many countries stamped in your passport and to many visas in it they will ban me from being within 100 miles of any Canadian airport.

Yah, I don't get it...it's kindov in our job description isn't it???

[Cat Driver]

Yah, I don't get it...it's kindov in our job description isn't it???

Exactly.

How can they deny honest law abiding citizens the right to work just because your work involves flying in other countries.

[thelastchance]

Cat Driver wrote:
If having to many countries stamped in your passport and to many visas in it they will ban me from being within 100 miles of any Canadian airport.

Yah, I don't get it...it's kindov in our job description isn't it???

Most of the time, first you get a red pass, and after you go to see the world with your airline as a pilot.

But others pilot first go to see the world on their own, and after ask for a red pass. And here it becomes more difficult.

That' s how I understand the problem. I may be wrong.

[wxnut]

Yah, I don't get it...it's kindov in our job description isn't it???

Exactly.

How can they deny honest law abiding citizens the right to work just because your work involves flying in other countries.

so if a pilot from

Lufthansa
KLM
British Midland
Air France
Austrian Airlines

was to move to canada with tons of jet time and complete his conversions, he would have trouble of getting a red pass cause he had Dubai or Tehran turnovers? complete bull shit - as a matter of fact, there are asians and middle eastern people flying for majors like ACA and WJA right now who do as a matter of fact travel to Hong Kong and Cairo once in a while. Man i guess their career is scary.

Another question too... speaking with an HR manager once, he told me that when an airline WANTS YOU TO FLY FOR THEM, they will be on the ass of the GRC to issue you that red pass, it becomes their responsibility. Not sure if this is true? If it is, then why not wait to get hired somewhere? Also, if you're not issued a pass at that time, you can generate more heat and spark by utilising authorities for not being hired due to "discrimination"




Cheers

[Cat Driver]

I have flown into and out of hundreds of different airports in almost half a hundred countries and not having a pass for any of these airports did not affect my being able to work as a pilot.

So is Canada different, is it not possible to work as a pilot in canada without a red pass?

If so you Canadians are truly being shafted.

[wxnut]

Which now that i wonder... how is it that ACA WJA / and other mainlines in north america need a redpass at an airport like CYYZ but KLM guys have nothing dangling off their pockets? lol... guess they don't need a red pass or anything of the same sort to transit these terminals? or do they have something else?

[Cat Driver]

or do they have something else?

Are you ready for this??? Sitting down?...take a deep breath and here we go.

We have our passports, we have our pilots licenses, we have our uniforms, we have our crews, we have our stuff in the airplane that we left there when we parked it, we have our signatures in the aircraft logs on board the airplane...we have the companies we work for to vouch for us....those are a few things we have to get access to the airplane.

So it seems unreasonable to believe you can't work as a pilot in Canada without a red pass.....

......but I'm no expert on how Canadians do it so I could be wrong......