Wj crash YOW

[tonysoprano]

Actually the only people that should be asking any questions right now are TC and WJ management and I suggest the rest of us leave our curiosities until the official answers are revealed. My curiosity was in the fact that it seemed like a similar incident took place recently. That is not the case. Here's the big picture: WJ stock up .50c today so far and also still lots of winter left. Stay safe.

[Azure]

deleted for sensitivity

[express]

I don't know, good news...stock down.

Great news...strock down,

Damn near killed 100 people? Stock UP?

Your kidding right?...drama queen.

[Azure]

[Legacy]

Here's the big picture: WJ stock up .50c today so far and also still lots of winter left. Stay safe.

Make that a buck O two Tony. Good to see. Was at 18.85 as of close friday and now is 19.87

[tonysoprano]

Heehhee. There ya go.

[Cleared to FL370]

A good news story. Everyone is o.k. Glad to hear it.

[Howdy]

Are you guys serious? Two westjet pilots run an aircraft off a runway, and in your opinion (the big picture?) that's alright because the stock price went up.

Remind me never to fly with you mob. You guys are warped.

[tonysoprano]

Reelaax.

[Howdy]

Relax? I'm relaxed dude. I live in Australia so the chance of me ever setting foot on Westjet is pretty minimal. The big picture is getting people SAFELY from departure to destination. If that is to hard to fathum, leave the industry, you have no place here.


Actually what I should have said is, leave because your embarrassing the rest of us.


Edited for fairness.

[tonysoprano]

Howdy.
It would seem easy to draw to a conclusion on this one. May I suggest that you don't. If this crew did something wrong, they will learn from it. They were capable enough to save the airplane and the pax. WJ will deal with this and we won't expect it to happen again or at least for a long time. Canadian winters are challenging. This particular approach and runway are even more so. The big picture I was reffering to deals more with the confidence of the travelling public in WJ and Canadian pilots in general. The stock price is just a testament to that. If this company were to repeat this incident, I'm sure this thread would sound a little different. For now, no harm done. Just out of curiosity, when was the last time you shot a non precision approach on a dark and dirty night onto an icy runway?

[Howdy]

Never, to be honest. I'm not going to get into a pissing contest with you. But if you really are interested, have a look (if you can get hold of the charts) at Hobart, circle to land RWY 30 (we still operate classic 737's), winter, at night, raining. You get the picture.

[tonysoprano]

I have respect for challenging flying anywhere in the world. I do most of mine outside Canada these days but have had my fair share of winter flying in the past three decades. I try to keep an open mind and I feel confident with my many years in the industry. That doesn't mean I don't make mistakes. As professional pilots we should never question or prejudge the ability of our colleagues before the final reports are out and then we can learn from their mistakes. No pissing contest required. Just common sense mate.

[Howdy]

Likewise, on all counts.

[Howdy]

Looks like I've been sucked in, this bloke isn't even with Westjet. I apologize to the Westjetters who do take this incident seriously. I guess it was posted with tongue firmly in cheek. Must be the three decades, I've only got one and a half.

[tonysoprano]

Must be the three decades, I've only got one and a half.

It shows.

[Stick-Shaker]

Well, you know - at the airport where I work, I would estimate that close to 70% of the landing westjet flights touch down approximately halfway down the runway.

Is that 70% of WJ flights "YOU" see touchdown or are you suggesting 70% of all WJ's 20 daily flights. Because if its the latter, I have to be skeptical that your stats are correct. My point is how many WJ's do you see land; 3 or 20?

At Air Canada your baggage might not make it to the terminal
but...........


at least you do.

Somebody give this dude the "number for 911" in case he see's this happen again.

[Stick-Shaker]

Edit, double post.

[WJ700]

So, 70% of YLW flights land long. However, its easy enough to see on paper, black and white, for any WestJet crew member.

WestJet runs a full FDM on its fleet and uses the data to track trends, incidents and pretty much any parameter in the aircraft. IE, if you exceed 30 knots on taxi for 5 seconds, you trigger a taxi over speed. If you select flaps to too high, you trigger a flap over speed, descent rates, thrust lever positions, lights on/off, turbulence, TR position and deployment times...it's all on record. WestJet pilots have appointed people 'gatekeepers' to protect the privacy of the data and police our own pilots from other departments seeing who made the offence... they may choose to escalate it to a management meeting, in the event there is a constant repeat offender who fails to reform their ways. Most of the time they train out our trends in the simulator. So with all of this data, that is shared with various departments, they also PUBLISH the data for all to see in the Calgary crewroom. I was in the crew room a few hours ago and can see that for long landings... we're less than .001 percent for the ENTIRE fleet. This number would also include the occasional 'slight milking for greaser' to runway 16 in Calgary where they request we clear at the end. I'm sure any other WestJet pilot on the forum can look at the same data and verify it for me.

So, beast, nice try... but stick to your fuel truck.

[Four1oh]

Beast, I'd be happy to come visit you next time I'm in YLW, and you can show me all these offenders first hand.

[Realitychex]

Well, you know - at the airport where I work, I would estimate that close to 70% of the landing westjet flights touch down approximately halfway down the runway.

Is that 70% of WJ flights "YOU" see touchdown or are you suggesting 70% of all WJ's 20 daily flights. Because if its the latter, I have to be skeptical that your stats are correct. My point is how many WJ's do you see land; 3 or 20?

At Air Canada your baggage might not make it to the terminal
but...........


at least you do.

Somebody give this dude the "number for 911" in case he see's this happen again.

If you'd watched the local Ottawa news on Monday, (available to anyone, anywhere in the world with Bell Expressvu), it was painfully obvious the "snow bank" picture was bordering on bogus.

There was about between 12-18 inches of snow in the area at the end of the runway. In order to get the airstairs to the aircraft, they had to clear a path. The snow from this exercise was piled up into the "snow bank". Photographers shot the picture with the snowbank in the foreground. It makes for sensationalism, which sells newspapers. So do headlines like "skidding off the runway".

http://www.radans.net/jens/planestory.html

The local news interviewed one of the aircraft enthusiasts who park near airports with their scanners, binoculars and digital cameras. The fellow, who was in his 50's and well spoken stated that his scanner picked up numerous conversations from ATC and other aircraft earlier in the day regarding braking action on the active runway, given the freezing rain situation.

I'm no expert, but airport authorities have crews that regularly measure the braking index on their runways. If it is within parameters, it's deemed safe. If not, the runway is closed. I've been in the pointy end of NG's enough to see how the automated systems pretty much ensure the airplane touches down precisely where its supposed to.

If I had to guess, this was a freezing rain issue, and one the airport authority needs to deal with more effectively.

[invertedattitude]

Just for the books I've seen many an NG, and every other aircraft type as new land long on many an occasion.

If the RFI was borderline but within limits it leaves almost no tolerance for error on

A.)Touchdown point

B.) Proper and prompt application of brakes and reverse thrust.

With very low RFI's even landing on the runway at the correct point without properly managing the aircraft afterwards has landed more than one airliner in a ditch.

[aroundthewing]

Well, you know - at the airport where I work, I would estimate that close to 70% of the landing westjet flights touch down approximately halfway down the runway.

Is that 70% of WJ flights "YOU" see touchdown or are you suggesting 70% of all WJ's 20 daily flights. Because if its the latter, I have to be skeptical that your stats are correct. My point is how many WJ's do you see land; 3 or 20?

At Air Canada your baggage might not make it to the terminal
but...........


at least you do.

Somebody give this dude the "number for 911" in case he see's this happen again.

If you'd watched the local Ottawa news on Monday, (available to anyone, anywhere in the world with Bell Expressvu), it was painfully obvious the "snow bank" picture was bordering on bogus.

There was about between 12-18 inches of snow in the area at the end of the runway. In order to get the airstairs to the aircraft, they had to clear a path. The snow from this exercise was piled up into the "snow bank". Photographers shot the picture with the snowbank in the foreground. It makes for sensationalism, which sells newspapers. So do headlines like "skidding off the runway".

http://www.radans.net/jens/planestory.html

The local news interviewed one of the aircraft enthusiasts who park near airports with their scanners, binoculars and digital cameras. The fellow, who was in his 50's and well spoken stated that his scanner picked up numerous conversations from ATC and other aircraft earlier in the day regarding braking action on the active runway, given the freezing rain situation.

I'm no expert, but airport authorities have crews that regularly measure the braking index on their runways. If it is within parameters, it's deemed safe. If not, the runway is closed. I've been in the pointy end of NG's enough to see how the automated systems pretty much ensure the airplane touches down precisely where its supposed to.

If I had to guess, this was a freezing rain issue, and one the airport authority needs to deal with more effectively.

Seems insignificant enough, but if their was a red maple leaf on the tail, it would have been sensationalized a hundred times more!

[Realitychex]

[/quote] Seems insignificant enough, but if their was a red maple leaf on the tail, it would have been sensationalized a hundred times more! [/quote]

This is a fair comment.

[Rotten Apple #1]

Inverted,

with respect to your post that the there is little or no tolerance for delayed application of brakes and reverse thrust when the RFI is near limits etc...the landing distance charts for autobrake usage on contaminated runways (and dry too) allow no credit for the application of reverse thrust. This was one of the problems in the Chicago (Midway) crash (Southwest) a few years ago where they ran off the end of the runway. The FAA had approved operations at that time by airlines allowing credit for reverse thrust (since changed IIRC). The pilots in that incident weren't exactly clear in their understanding of this point.

Of course, every professional would apply reverse thrust in such circuimstances. Just clarifying a small point.

JD