Aztec left gear problems

[THEICEMAN]

Question to other fellow Aztec or piper light twin pilots.....

Have any of you ever had problems with the left gear lowering during cruise?
Today, I was flying an Aztec to do an apporach at CYOW, & the left gear popped out during the Loc/Bc 25 approach. After recycling the gear, it went back up & all was normal. But during the return home, it did the same thing 3X! With the bright sun, it was also difficult to determine if the amber light (gear up light) was on.

Since it's a 40 year old aircraft, sometimes the gears don't properly go up. So I try to recycle them during flight every so often. But when it happens so many times??

Also......just want to thank the pilot holding short on 25 who noticed the problem. Also, thank you to controllers of CYOW tower & arrivals, for holding the traffic & inspecting the airplane during the low & over.

Cheers!

[tired of the ground]

I assume your friendly neighborhood local AME is all over the technical stuff.

But just for your info, you've got hydraulic issues. In the Aztec, the Gear is held up by hydraulic pressure. If it was just the light that came on, I would say the uplock switch was the culprit but if your gear actually came out, it is hydraulic system (Actuators, Pumps (or pump depending on SN), Power Pack).

[CL-Skadoo!]

That was you? Drama in the skies? Glad it worked out alright.

[Braun]

Also, thank you to controllers of CYOW tower & arrivals, for holding the traffic & inspecting the airplane during the low & over.

Cheers!

No thank you! You provided some of us with a good learning experience!

[Benwa]

You get that quite often on Aztecs. Select gear-up every now and then. And keep bugging maintenance to do their job.

It's good that you actually know that it's the left gear though. They'll know where to look at first.

Funny thing is they'll put the airplane on jacks put the gears up and wait 48 hours and they won't drop a bit. They'll call you a liar or an idiot, but now you have Braun and his friends as witness !

FLy Safe !


Benwa !

[Four1oh]

um, you cycle the gear regularly in cruise? Even when there's nothing wrong with it? Maybe it's not working properly because of the amount of cycles on it!!!

[THEICEMAN]

That was you? Drama in the skies? Glad it worked out alright.

Yup! That was me alright. Flyin with an instructor/buddy of mine, to freshin up on my IFR skills.
The airplane is 41 years old, but it's the cheapest twin I can find in the YUL area.
I guess you get what you pay for!

I would say the uplock switch was the culprit but if your gear actually came out, it is hydraulic system (Actuators, Pumps (or pump depending on SN), Power Pack).

Exactly what I was thinking!

Funny thing is, it would only start dropping when the gear handle was on neutral. I tried to keep the handle up but after five minutes, the handle goes right back down to neutral.

I was told today, that this problem is common with many older PA-23s. Has anybody had similar problems with the left gear?

No thank you! You provided some of us with a good learning experience!

hahahaha........anytime....anytime!

[Benwa]

You get that quite often on Aztecs.

Okay, older PA-23's.

Clear enough ?

[THEICEMAN]

Okay, older PA-23's.

Clear enough ?

It's a 1966. Go figure!

um, you cycle the gear regularly in cruise? Even when there's nothing wrong with it? Maybe it's not working properly because of the amount of cycles on it!!!

Nonono....I only recycle it when the amber light goes off (gear up light). Also, I always drop the airspeed below 150 MPH (Piper's recommended Vle).
What other people do with the airplane....well? I don't want to know!

[Lurch]

I tried to keep the handle up but after five minutes, the handle goes right back down to neutral.

WTF

I only have a couple hundred hours in an Aztec but from what I remember the gear handle returns to neutral as soon as the gear is up and locked.

Now for the million dollar question, Did you Snag the airplane?

Lurch

[tired of the ground]

If it takes five minutes for the handle to return back to neutral then that is one f'd hydraulic system. You have no pressure in the system which is why the handle takes so long to return and why your gear is dropping.

[THEICEMAN]

Now for the million dollar question, Did you Snag the airplane?

On the other Aztec I fly, the gear handle returns to neutral. But on this one, you often have to do it yourself.
I know, I know......but that airplane has been flying like that for years! I can snag it 100 times, & it won't make a difference.

You should see how many U/S stickers there are in there! Not to mention, the flight controls were super difficult to handle!

If it takes five minutes for the handle to return back to neutral then that is one f'd hydraulic system. You have no pressure in the system which is why the handle takes so long to return and why your gear is dropping.

Could be! But apart from that, I have never had a problem with the flaps & it always goes three green...

Thanks for the info guys! Next time I should use the other Aztec or go somewhere else....

[Lurch]

Now for the million dollar question, Did you Snag the airplane?

On the other Aztec I fly, the gear handle returns to neutral. But on this one, you often have to do it yourself.
I know, I know......but that airplane has been flying like that for years! I can snag it 100 times, & it won't make a difference.

You should see how many U/S stickers there are in there! Not to mention, the flight controls were super difficult to handle!

I'm almost at a loss for words

This is the type of mentality that gets pilots killed, give you head a shake, it is your legal/Moral responsibility to ensure that this problem gets fixed not just shrug your shoulders and say oh well.

I have snagged things more then once and keep snagging it until it gets fixed that is the AMEs job, to fix things.

If you keep snagging the problem and there is an incident your free and clear of any liabilities it is on the AMEs shoulders.

Thanks for the info guys! Next time I should use the other Aztec or go somewhere else....

This has to be the only smart thing I've read from you on this subject.

Sorry about going off but this really gets my hair up when pilots just don't seem to care about everybody else that puts their live on the line when they fly these pieces of crap.

Lurch

[THEICEMAN]

I'm almost at a loss for words

This is the type of mentality that gets pilots killed, give you head a shake, it is your legal/Moral responsibility to ensure that this problem gets fixed not just shrug your shoulders and say oh well.

I have snagged things more then once and keep snagging it until it gets fixed that is the AMEs job, to fix things.

If you keep snagging the problem and there is an incident your free and clear of any liabilities it is on the AMEs shoulders.

Must we really argue about this!
The fact of the matter is, you have never flown the aircraft & most probably have never seen it.
No it's not in perfect conditions. But it's used to train many pilots & is operated by the largest flight school in the YUL area.

Actually a TC inspector flew in it last thursday for a flight test & he said it was ok......not to mention the many Class I instructors who fly in it daily.

Most of the U/S stickers are placed for stuff like electric trim, autopilot, de-ice, etc..... All non-essential stuff. Besides that, the engines are brand new & the avionics are updated.

Is it perfect? Far from it! But is it safe.......of course!

Look.....I flew with my buddy today who probably has a 1000 hours on the Aztec, most of which were on that airplane.
If he says it's safe to fly, I believe him! He is not the type to take risks.

But, for the next IFR refresher flight.......I think i will go with the other Aztec.

[the_professor]

Also......just want to thank the pilot holding short on 25 who noticed the problem.

Never flown an Aztec, but surprised you didn't notice the unexpected yaw from the dropped wheel, or did you mean 'thanks' to the guy for actually mentioning it on frequency, even though you'd already become aware of the problem?

[Benwa]

From my experience, when the gear drops a little bit, you don't really notice the added drag.

If the handle doesn't go back to neutral by itself, usually the powerpack is the culprit.

[THEICEMAN]

From my experience, when the gear drops a little bit, you don't really notice the added drag.

That's exactly what happened. The gear only dropped a little bit & we didn't know.
On the Aztec, there is a light that indicates that the gears are up. Problem was, the sun was so bright, it was hard to see if it was actualy on.

Well, the airplane is going for another check again. Hopefully they can figure out what the problem is.

[Four1oh]

but, it's still not snagged, is it?

[Doc]

When he says he "recycles" the gear in cruise, I assume he means, he cycles it "up". If I remember, this is not uncommon. There are no up locks.......so, they do tend to "sag" from time to time....no big...kind of like, your ass sagging if you were built in '66...or before...

BTW....it's not something you would "snag".....

[THEICEMAN]

When he says he "recycles" the gear in cruise, I assume he means, he cycles it "up". If I remember, this is not uncommon. There are no up locks.......so, they do tend to "sag" from time to time....no big...kind of like, your ass sagging if you were built in '66...or before...

BTW....it's not something you would "snag".....

Bingo!

Four1oh, somethings you can snag & some you can't. It's just the way that aircraft is, & the pilot has to deal with it.

Remember that it's a 41 year old Aztec, not a Boeing.

[Strega]

When he says he "recycles" the gear in cruise, I assume he means, he cycles it "up". If I remember, this is not uncommon. There are no up locks.......so, they do tend to "sag" from time to time....no big...kind of like, your ass sagging if you were built in '66...or before...

BTW....it's not something you would "snag".....

Bingo!

Four1oh, somethings you can snag & some you can't. It's just the way that aircraft is, & the pilot has to deal with it.

Remember that it's a 41 year old Aztec, not a Boeing.

Iceman, I hate to say it but your a moron for still flying a plane with a U/S hydraulic system.
The gear handle should return to neutral after retraction/extension (or about 25 seconds in temperate condidtions) if it doesnt, it means the powerpac has orings that are worn and leaking. If the gear falls or sags down in flight, it means the powerpac has orings that are worn and leaking . The fact that its a 41 year old plane has nothing to do with orings in the powerpac leaking. If the "engineers" that maintain this aircraft cant figure it out, I suggest you call TC and make a stink.

If the powerpac is fucked, how are all the hydraulic hoses? , what if you leak enough fluid out that you are not able to extend the nose gear? ( Im assuming that if the "engineers" that are working on the plane cant diagnose/fix the powerpac, they probably didnt check the shuttle valves and CO2 canister either, so if you loose some/enough of your fluid, the nose wheel will not come down) If the nose gear doesnt extend, you could, a big could, flip the aircraft over, and with all the gas in an aztec, start on fire, potentially killing all on board.

Something as simple as the left gear falling down in flight might have more serious failings that you might first think,
another question for you, ever wonderd why the left gear falls down? all three rams that extend/retract the gear on an aztec are connected in parellel.

Here is an excerpt I found in 10 seconds, I realize its not the same as this case, but nontheless proves my point how little details, can kill people.
(in the case of the landing gear, there are plenty of places that if you had an engine failure after takeoff, and the gear (hydraulic system) failed to retract, you would crash and burn.


Close-Up: Fatal Crash of Piper Aztec at Carson City, Nevada
In November 1997, reader Eric Gourley — a 7000-hour corporate pilot and multiengine instructor — sent AVweb his eyewitness account of a horrifying stall/spin/burn departure accident at the Carson City, Nev., airport that fatally injured the pilot and his three passengers. Gourley's impression at the time was that the crash was caused by a mishandled engine failure and ensuing Vmc roll. A year later, the NTSB issued its detailed final report on the accident, and attributed the tragedy to an unlatched nose baggage door. Here are both reports in their entirety. They make sobering reading.

By Eric Gourley and the NTSB

Bottom lin is GET IT FIXED OR DONT FLY IT. is your life, or the life of your passengers woth some time in your log book?

[THEICEMAN]

Strega....stop listening to the other people's words & listen to mine! I never said that the gear handle doesn't go back to neutral in 25 seconds. I said that the gear only pops out when the handle is on neutral.
Don't listen to other people's conclusions, since I am the one who flew it.

Read what I wrote before:

Funny thing is, it would only start dropping when the gear handle was on neutral................. the handle goes right back down to neutral.

Now the situation goes like this. The left gear tends to pop out every 30 minutes during cruise. This only when the gear handle is on neutral. It takes about 25 seconds for it to return. If it doesn't, then you have to put it on neutral manually.

Iceman, I hate to say it but your a moron for still flying a plane with a U/S hydraulic system.

Again your not listening.......this is what I wrote before:

Thanks for the info guys! Next time I should use the other Aztec or go somewhere else....

???what does that have to do with this???? Nose baggage door??

it says:

"the NTSB issued its detailed final report on the accident, and attributed the tragedy to an unlatched nose baggage door. Here are both reports in their entirety. They make sobering reading."

[FlyYukon]

I know nothing about Aztec's, have never even sat in one as a passenger.

Iceman - moral of all the comments, and the nose baggage door,

A seemingly small problem [for you] can end up a major problem [for the next guy].



When the gear handle is in the 'up' position, where you said the gear doesn't sag, doesn't that mean the hydraulic pump is constantly running?


Hope they fix the problem!

FY

[Strega]

Strega....stop listening to the other people's words & listen to mine! I never said that the gear handle doesn't go back to neutral in 25 seconds. I said that the gear only pops out when the handle is on neutral.
Don't listen to other people's conclusions, since I am the one who flew it.

Read what I wrote before:

Funny thing is, it would only start dropping when the gear handle was on neutral................. the handle goes right back down to neutral.

Now the situation goes like this. The left gear tends to pop out every 30 minutes during cruise. This only when the gear handle is on neutral. It takes about 25 seconds for it to return. If it doesn't, then you have to put it on neutral manually.

Clearly you dont understand how the hydraulics work on your aircraft. You should never have to manually reset the landing gear selector to the neutral position in an aztec, if you do, there is a problem.

Iceman, I hate to say it but your a moron for still flying a plane with a U/S hydraulic system.

Again your not listening.......this is what I wrote before:

Thanks for the info guys! Next time I should use the other Aztec or go somewhere else....

Did you snag it? or tell other co-workers not to fly it as it has hydraulic system problems?

???what does that have to do with this???? Nose baggage door??

Read my post from above

it says:

"the NTSB issued its detailed final report on the accident, and attributed the tragedy to an unlatched nose baggage door. Here are both reports in their entirety. They make sobering reading."

My point was small problems can lead to death. There is something the matter with the hydraulics on "one" of the aztecs you fly. This problem could lead to your, and perhaps more importantly your passengers death.


Some additional reading material for you, Small problems can lead to BIG problems
Strong winds slammed a small plane with malfunctioning landing gear into a hillside just short of the runway at Morristown Municipal Airport just before 6 p.m. yesterday, authorities said. The pilot, Randel Manaka, 53, of Rydal, Pa., was in the emergency room of the Morristown Memorial Hospital late yesterday after surviving the crash of the Piper Aztec twin-engine plane, officials said. Lt. James Wilcox of the Morristown police said that Mr. Manaka, the aircraft's sole occupant, reported trouble with the landing gear before cutting the engine. About 200 feet east of a runway, the plane was forced to the ground by a strong wind, Lieutenant Wilcox said. Officials said Mr. Manaka was alert at the scene, complaining of pain in his back and left hip and leg.



Yes THEICEMAN, landing gear/hydraulic problems injure/kill people.

[THEICEMAN]

Yes THEICEMAN, landing gear/hydraulic problems injure/kill people.

I don't doubt that one bit. I take flying very seriously!
Not an AME so I don't want to discuss this any further....

But I don't see how you can conclude that there is a big problem with the aircraft. Like DOC said, no big. There are no uplocks, so the gear can sag from time to time.
Apart from that, the gears have worked perfectly.
Not say that the aircraft is perfect, because snags often pop on the aircraft & it get's fixed a lot.

When the gear handle is in the 'up' position, where you said the gear doesn't sag, doesn't that mean the hydraulic pump is constantly running?

True.....But I don't keep the gear handle up constantly.....I just cycle it up when the amber light goes off (gear up light).

Like I said before......next time I take a twin for a ride, I will go with the other Aztec.