Jag-Off! Man I thought I was the only guy who knew that word! gotta love Pesci!When you see a cocky pilot...that Jag-Off has not payed his/her dues
Paying your Dues!
Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore, I WAS Birddog
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golden hawk
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Paying Dues = "Learning the ropes" = "apprenticing"
Doctors = Internship
Lawyers = Articling Student
Pilots = Ramp-rat
Sorry folks, but the reality is that a pilot is a highly skilled "blue collar" worker.
If you want neat and tidy work in the big cities right away, work in business or law. Otherwise, suck it up and get to work wherever you can find work.
Doctors = Internship
Lawyers = Articling Student
Pilots = Ramp-rat
Sorry folks, but the reality is that a pilot is a highly skilled "blue collar" worker.
If you want neat and tidy work in the big cities right away, work in business or law. Otherwise, suck it up and get to work wherever you can find work.
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Cat Driver
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I would never have been offered my first flying job crop spraying if I had not first worked as an apprentice mechanic in the hangar.
Funny we never saw anything wrong with working so we could get a job flying which sure isn't really work.
Cat
Funny we never saw anything wrong with working so we could get a job flying which sure isn't really work.
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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Panama Jack
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Cat Driver,
With all due respect, I think the aviation industry in Canada has changed quite a bit since the time that you were a low-time pilot. Ask a bunch of older Air Canada pilots what their qualifications were at the time they got on to, say, Air Canada or other similar airlines and it will look nothing like the industry these days. I've met plenty of senior airline pilots who have absolutely no concept of that even today, and many "newbie" pilots make the mistake of thinking that they should get career counselling from a grizzled old airline captain on how to progress in their career. Most of these guys haven't even got a clue on what their airline's hiring requirements are today-- in their case they may have gotten on at age 19 and with a bare Commercial.
Those who do get to that level, have definately paid their dues . . . and then some . . . and with a high rate of compound interest.
With all due respect, I think the aviation industry in Canada has changed quite a bit since the time that you were a low-time pilot. Ask a bunch of older Air Canada pilots what their qualifications were at the time they got on to, say, Air Canada or other similar airlines and it will look nothing like the industry these days. I've met plenty of senior airline pilots who have absolutely no concept of that even today, and many "newbie" pilots make the mistake of thinking that they should get career counselling from a grizzled old airline captain on how to progress in their career. Most of these guys haven't even got a clue on what their airline's hiring requirements are today-- in their case they may have gotten on at age 19 and with a bare Commercial.
Those who do get to that level, have definately paid their dues . . . and then some . . . and with a high rate of compound interest.
“If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. If it stops moving, subsidize it.”
-President Ronald Reagan
-President Ronald Reagan
Or go to Europe.. Instant employment.. =Pgolden hawk wrote: Pilots = Ramp-rat
Sorry folks, but the reality is that a pilot is a highly skilled "blue collar" worker.
If you want neat and tidy work in the big cities right away, work in business or law. Otherwise, suck it up and get to work wherever you can find work.
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Boss Hawg
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nothing wrong with paying dues (ie ramp/dock) so long as you get something out of it. i know a lot of guys do their cpl and a float rating and think they should jump into a 185 or beaver first season. i know i learned lots working the dock my first year and no way would i have been ready to fly the loads in the weather the sr pilots were flying in. would YOU want to fly with them?
I totally agree with you there. I don't have a problem with putting in the time/work/effort to move up the ladder. However, I know some that have been 'paying their dues' for more than two years now. I'm at the 18 month mark and finally it seems that the gates may be opening for me.boss_hawg wrote:nothing wrong with paying dues (ie ramp/dock) so long as you get something out of it.
What I don't like is the attitude form those above. Some times it feels like their just rubbing your nose in the fact that your still green. I feel like they won't give me a real oppertunity to prove what I can do. Any one else have this feeling....now or back when you were still young and dumb?
You do realize that they actually pay their dues while working in their field! I know Interns aren't doctors, but do they stack the warehouse? do they ensure that the right amount of dippers are in the stock room? Do they sweep floors?golden hawk wrote:Paying Dues = "Learning the ropes" = "apprenticing"
Doctors = Internship
Lawyers = Articling Student
Pilots = Ramp-rat
Sorry folks, but the reality is that a pilot is a highly skilled "blue collar" worker.
If you want neat and tidy work in the big cities right away, work in business or law. Otherwise, suck it up and get to work wherever you can find work.
Management works the same way. Yes, while paying your dues, you schedule meetings, you do paperwork and some secretary work, but you work on projects, you take important decisions, you learn to negotiate and sign contracts...You just don't have the full responsibility and accountability...That's all...
Isn't that the equivalent of being a Co-pilot?
I still don't see why you guys think that Lawyers and Doctors go through the same shit...And they end up getting paid 5X as much!
In the business world, the rearview mirror is always clearer than the windshield...W. Buffett-
golden hawk
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....because it takes more education to be one of these professions!Yoyoma wrote:
I still don't see why you guys think that Lawyers and Doctors go through the same shit...And they end up getting paid 5X as much!
You don't even need to finish high school to be a pilot. No MCAT or LSAT, undergraduate university requirement, essay type exam answers, etc...
The licensing process for pilots is pretty easy in comparison. As I said earlier, a pilot is blue collar, so yes, be prepared to 'sweep floors'.
If you want 5x the pay, quit aviation and change occupations. It's that simple.
I think we'd all agree that getting employment is largely being in the right place at the right time.
Paying your dues is all about sticking it out long enough so eventually you'll be in the right place at the right time.
Granted, when you get your shot you probably shouldn't be an asshole and you may want to be able to fly a plane and speak intelligently.
Pugster
Paying your dues is all about sticking it out long enough so eventually you'll be in the right place at the right time.
Granted, when you get your shot you probably shouldn't be an asshole and you may want to be able to fly a plane and speak intelligently.
Pugster
I'm sorry but I do not agree! Flying is a highly skilled profession.....because it takes more education to be one of these professions!
You don't even need to finish high school to be a pilot. No MCAT or LSAT, undergraduate university requirement, essay type exam answers, etc...
The licensing process for pilots is pretty easy in comparison. As I said earlier, a pilot is blue collar, so yes, be prepared to 'sweep floors'.
If you want 5x the pay, quit aviation and change occupations. It's that simple.
Being a Business manager or a Doctor requires a lot of knowledge and know-how. So is being a Pilot and sweeping floors only prepares you for one thing...
Operators want to see how much shit you can handle without complaining, then they hire you onto a machine and ask you to do more crap for them...Why not, you've already demonstrated the ability to take it up the ...
In the business world, the rearview mirror is always clearer than the windshield...W. Buffett-
Cat Driver
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golden hawk
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Boss Hawg
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guess it pays to do your research before you pick a career. If you don't want to do grunt work for a while than maybe being a pilot isn't for you. on the other hand if you're prepared for it and are ready/willing to work hard and get thru it then you'll go far.
i agree with big oaf that the attitude from sr pilots to ramp/dock staff can be a drag. after pumping their floats, refuelling, cleaning, loading and unloading there a/c a little verbal avbuse from them doesn't go over well.
i agree with big oaf that the attitude from sr pilots to ramp/dock staff can be a drag. after pumping their floats, refuelling, cleaning, loading and unloading there a/c a little verbal avbuse from them doesn't go over well.
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golden hawk
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I'm a paramedic, they don't hire cleaners to come once a day to clean our quarters we do all the vacuuming, dishes, dusting, and yes toilets.
We also pay our dues by working this job part time for upwards of 6-7 years before we a lucky enough to get on full time. As a part timer carrying a pager here in B.C. you earn $2.00 an hour until their is a call then I think you start at around $17.00/hr. In some areas you can expect about 1 call a day if your lucky x 4 hours(minimum call out time) = $68.00. And you are expected to be at the station ready to go within 5 minutes. This kind of limits your chance of another job provided you can find an employer who will put up with you leaving on a minutes notice.
So rampies, I think that it is safe to say that if you want a career in aviation you may have to pay some dues. I think that it is also safe to say that yours is not the only profession that "requires" those dues to be paid.
All that being said, good luck to all you young guys/gals waiting for your turn.
We also pay our dues by working this job part time for upwards of 6-7 years before we a lucky enough to get on full time. As a part timer carrying a pager here in B.C. you earn $2.00 an hour until their is a call then I think you start at around $17.00/hr. In some areas you can expect about 1 call a day if your lucky x 4 hours(minimum call out time) = $68.00. And you are expected to be at the station ready to go within 5 minutes. This kind of limits your chance of another job provided you can find an employer who will put up with you leaving on a minutes notice.
So rampies, I think that it is safe to say that if you want a career in aviation you may have to pay some dues. I think that it is also safe to say that yours is not the only profession that "requires" those dues to be paid.
All that being said, good luck to all you young guys/gals waiting for your turn.
If you compare aviation to the trades, the amount of "dues paying" before a reasonable income starts to flow in becomes obviously screwed up.
But it's BS to assert that professional careers (such as doctors, lawyers, etc.) don't require "dues paying" as well. I have an aquaintance who is a dentist that has definitely had to endure some hardship in order to make it where he is today. And, when you tack on the edumacation required in order to go for, say, a PhD - you've got some pretty serious years of non-earnings going on.
I still believe that the screwiness in this career is in the way that the earnings (and respect) are distributed throughout the various sectors of the industry. Why an indivudual who drives a bus (for some companies)should make huge bucks while a guy driving a taxi should make virtually nothing still evades me.
For those that think that just because aviation isn't extremely difficult doesn't make it a profession - is being a dentist that "hard" once you know what you're doing? A profession (ie: professional career) is defined by the status (earned or not) that it holds in society - not by the difficulty of the task involved. If difficulty dictated what was a "professional" career then I know a few doctors that wouldn't be professionals, and a bunch of mechanics that would. As well, all (virtually) professions are policed by some sort of "peer group" - ie: College of Physicians, Canadian Psychological Association, Air Line Pilots Association (hmmm...) etc.
If we are going to promote aviation as a professional career then we need a "professional association" at all levels of the industry, not just at the airline level. Otherwise, at the air-taxi, instructor, and small-operator level we'll be continued to be treated as an apprentice to the airline end of the business.
Rant Over.
Pugster
But it's BS to assert that professional careers (such as doctors, lawyers, etc.) don't require "dues paying" as well. I have an aquaintance who is a dentist that has definitely had to endure some hardship in order to make it where he is today. And, when you tack on the edumacation required in order to go for, say, a PhD - you've got some pretty serious years of non-earnings going on.
I still believe that the screwiness in this career is in the way that the earnings (and respect) are distributed throughout the various sectors of the industry. Why an indivudual who drives a bus (for some companies)should make huge bucks while a guy driving a taxi should make virtually nothing still evades me.
For those that think that just because aviation isn't extremely difficult doesn't make it a profession - is being a dentist that "hard" once you know what you're doing? A profession (ie: professional career) is defined by the status (earned or not) that it holds in society - not by the difficulty of the task involved. If difficulty dictated what was a "professional" career then I know a few doctors that wouldn't be professionals, and a bunch of mechanics that would. As well, all (virtually) professions are policed by some sort of "peer group" - ie: College of Physicians, Canadian Psychological Association, Air Line Pilots Association (hmmm...) etc.
If we are going to promote aviation as a professional career then we need a "professional association" at all levels of the industry, not just at the airline level. Otherwise, at the air-taxi, instructor, and small-operator level we'll be continued to be treated as an apprentice to the airline end of the business.
Rant Over.
Pugster
I can write prescriptions, Toronto had a doctor work and bill OHIP for 10 years to a tune of 5 million and he only paid back $250,000 in the form of a fine....golden hawk wrote: ....because it takes more education to be one of these professions!
You don't even need to finish high school to be a pilot. No MCAT or LSAT, undergraduate university requirement, essay type exam answers, etc...
The licensing process for pilots is pretty easy in comparison. As I said earlier, a pilot is blue collar, so yes, be prepared to 'sweep floors'.
If you want 5x the pay, quit aviation and change occupations. It's that simple.
"Go search for a second opinion"
1 dentist that says you have 3 cavities and another who says you have one.
Stop being an idiot.. You don't NEED an education to do one of their jobs.. It's just that they have the union, Doctors and Lawyers Association, that lobby the government and make it IMPOSSIBLE to get into their field.
Like I said numerous times, all you need to do is limit the # of CPLs and ATPLs given out each year and you'll have pilots making millions..
You can get a Dentist degree in some european countries in 1 year.
Malpractice, ever heard of the term?
Education.. blah...
I don't really consider articling for a law firm to be "paying your dues" in the aviation sense. One of my best friends is deciding where he wants to do his. He's looking at _first year_ articiling jobs at $90,000 in big cities. You can't compare chucking bags and cleaning puke on some dock or ramp in a black fly infested sub-arctic rats nest for $7.95/hr on the same level. Yep you'll get to learn how to use a herc-strap, wobble pump, float pump, nets, whatever else. Does it really take 2 years of on the job training though? 2 months perhaps?
I personally don't see a pilot flying anything with any variant of jet engine as blue collar. Anyone who makes it to those jobs are following very strict SOPs, training/retraining, etc. That in my eyes qualifies them as professionals.
****in no way am I saying that someone flying a 172 or a kingair isn't "professional" about the way they do their job****
I personally don't see a pilot flying anything with any variant of jet engine as blue collar. Anyone who makes it to those jobs are following very strict SOPs, training/retraining, etc. That in my eyes qualifies them as professionals.
****in no way am I saying that someone flying a 172 or a kingair isn't "professional" about the way they do their job****
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golden hawk
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I don't know where to begin with that post, LT. See attached link. If don't think dentists and doctors need education, feel free to use the European dentist with 1 year degree, and then say goodbye to eating corn on the cob.LT wrote:
I can write prescriptions, Toronto had a doctor work and bill OHIP for 10 years to a tune of 5 million and he only paid back $250,000 in the form of a fine....
"Go search for a second opinion"
1 dentist that says you have 3 cavities and another who says you have one.
Stop being an idiot.. You don't NEED an education to do one of their jobs.. It's just that they have the union, Doctors and Lawyers Association, that lobby the government and make it IMPOSSIBLE to get into their field.
Like I said numerous times, all you need to do is limit the # of CPLs and ATPLs given out each year and you'll have pilots making millions..
You can get a Dentist degree in some european countries in 1 year.
Malpractice, ever heard of the term?
Education.. blah...
Your examples of fraud and erroneous diagnoses - sure, this stuff happens. Likely by the very doctors and dentists who did the "Central America Institute of Medicine" accelerated program.
http://www.cda-adc.ca/english/dentistry ... eq_eng.pdf
As for lawyers, here's some interesting data. They guy making $90,000 must be top of the class!
What do Students actually do?
In practice, the duties undertaken by articling students could vary significantly depending on the size and primary area of practice of the firm. According to the October 1995 Canadian Lawyer article "Is Articling Obsolete?", large firms typically assign work on a rotation basis covering several areas of law while using a supervisory mentor system. In contrast, supervision at smaller firms might allow for more frequent feedback since there is more opportunity to work with the same lawyers. The feedback in smaller firms is often delivered on a casual basis rather than through formal evaluations. In some cases, students were dissatisfied with having been constantly assigned menial tasks. In other cases, many larger firms demanded up to 80 hours per week on a regular basis.
Based on our own Articling Surveys, tasks generally expected to be completed by articling students include drafting contracts and documents, preparing pleadings and motions, client correspondence, legal research, court appearances, title searching, handling of small claims court files, assisting with real estate closings, preparing legal memoranda, attending trials and hearings, and writing legal articles. Students often work between 50 and 60 hours a week. However, for several large corporate/commercial and litigation-intensive firms, hours increase to 60-70+. Some students indicated that hours vary depending on their rotations.
Satisfaction with the articling experience also varied drastically, often within the same firm, depending under which lawyer a student was supervised and whether the student's interests fit with the firm's main area of practice.
The Bottom Line: Salaries across Canada
Based on the 2001 National Compensation Survey conducted by Canadian Lawyer magazine, the following are mid-range annual salary averages (highs and lows omitted) for the majority of articling students and associates across Canada. Please note that the articling term has now been shortened to 10 months, and salaries may be adjusted accordingly.
Students-at-Law Compare w/1999
National Average: $19,980 - $33,720 $20,500 - $41,500
< 5 Practitioners: $17,730 - $29,590 $20,175 - $36,525
5-25 Lawyers: $23,370 - $36,610 $20,500 - $41,500
26-100 Lawyers: $31,000 - $43,240 Not available
Atlantic Provinces: $22,500 - $26,000 $19,000 - $33,000
Quebec: $20,690 - $31,880 $22,425 - $37,275
Ontario: $26,220 - $41,060 $20,500 - $41,500
Metro Toronto(1999-98): $20,500 - $41,500 $31,900 - $40,100
Prairie Provinces: $17,840 - $32,800 $20,100 - $26,700
B.C.: $25,680 - $35,250 $19,200 - $25,600
1st-year Associates
National Average: $33,800 - $57,440 $27,625 - $50,875
5th-year Associates
National Average: $48,790 - $103,420 $47,500 - $82,500
In-House Corporate Counsel - Junior Lawyers(< 5 yrs)
National Average: $59,100 - $91,900
Privately Held Companies: $65,000 - $105,100
Public Co./Crown Corp.: $55,300 - $84,900
http://www.commonlaw.uottawa.ca/eng/stu ... ar_adm.htm
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snaproll20
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the simple truth is that aviation has changed. Hands and feet experience used to be important. A few yars ago?.....15 years to cross seats on a Canadian airline.....3 on a US one. Now that the silicone units are taking over from the carbon units, a few years playing video games may make you a better airline pilot than one who has "paid his dues".....and has a license.
Sorry you young-uns, but it will all change again. Try pilotless aircraft!!!
Sorry you young-uns, but it will all change again. Try pilotless aircraft!!!
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Spiraldive
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"Paying your dues", in Canada, is just another way of saying "we don't need you right now" in an industry flooded with experienced pilots.
In europe, general aviation is a very rich game. Yes, it costs lots here too. But in europe the cost is so prohibitive that it prevents the development of a grass-roots aviation community from which to draw future commercial pilots.
Hence the european airlines' propensity to hire kids off the street (after gruelling interviews and tests and stuff to measure potential aptitude as a pilot, the reliability of which is very questionable), train them in-house and release them to jets with 250 hrsTT.
Aviation in Canada cycles every 10 years or so. The back-end of each cycle sees a lucky few low-timers sneak into the airlines just like they do every day in europe.
Because they are the only pilots available at the time.
In europe, they are always the only pilots available at the time.
Unless, of course, Air France and the like finally get smart and start paying for JAR licence conversions for "real" pilots from Canada
, instead of settling for 200hr Timmies that couldn't shoot an ILS down to minimums without the A/P working if their life depended on it 
.
Fact of the matter is, though, if you spend a few years flying as PIC in Canada's north and manage not to kill yourself or bend anything that matters, you will have some hours on your resume that are decently respected world-wide. And it may eventually help you get a job somewhere the winters don't clock in at -50C. When the Canadian aviation industry can afford to be picky, that's what's known as "paying your dues".
And in Canada, if you do bend something, or almost kill yourself while maiming others in the process, don't worry, TC is always looking for more "safety officers with northern experience"
In europe, general aviation is a very rich game. Yes, it costs lots here too. But in europe the cost is so prohibitive that it prevents the development of a grass-roots aviation community from which to draw future commercial pilots.
Hence the european airlines' propensity to hire kids off the street (after gruelling interviews and tests and stuff to measure potential aptitude as a pilot, the reliability of which is very questionable), train them in-house and release them to jets with 250 hrsTT.
Aviation in Canada cycles every 10 years or so. The back-end of each cycle sees a lucky few low-timers sneak into the airlines just like they do every day in europe.
Because they are the only pilots available at the time.
In europe, they are always the only pilots available at the time.
Unless, of course, Air France and the like finally get smart and start paying for JAR licence conversions for "real" pilots from Canada
, instead of settling for 200hr Timmies that couldn't shoot an ILS down to minimums without the A/P working if their life depended on it . Fact of the matter is, though, if you spend a few years flying as PIC in Canada's north and manage not to kill yourself or bend anything that matters, you will have some hours on your resume that are decently respected world-wide. And it may eventually help you get a job somewhere the winters don't clock in at -50C. When the Canadian aviation industry can afford to be picky, that's what's known as "paying your dues".
And in Canada, if you do bend something, or almost kill yourself while maiming others in the process, don't worry, TC is always looking for more "safety officers with northern experience"
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margaritaville
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Paying your dues...seeing exactly what an employer can get out of you without complaint. If you're a newbie in the industry, your tolerance for this is a little higher. I find after a few years at this...I'm still paying my dues. I suppose with this career you always are in a way. Paying an arm and a leg for training, moving away from family and friends, working for slightly above poverty line wages..etc...is that all part of paying your dues? Or does paying your dues mean that you are a toilet cleaner, aircraft detailer, and hanger sweeper? Everyone has a different idea of this obviously - and by all means a pilot should do a little grunt work to get where he/she wants to be, but my question is...when do you draw the line?
A wise man told me lately, pilots do it to themselves. This is very true. Always you will have a pilot brother out there willing to work for less, work for free perhaps and employers get this 'pilots are a dime a dozen' mentality. If you don't want to sweep the hangar floor to 'earn' the opportunity to fly - then guaranteed someone out there will.
Just my 2 cents
A wise man told me lately, pilots do it to themselves. This is very true. Always you will have a pilot brother out there willing to work for less, work for free perhaps and employers get this 'pilots are a dime a dozen' mentality. If you don't want to sweep the hangar floor to 'earn' the opportunity to fly - then guaranteed someone out there will.
Just my 2 cents
