Navcanada...So was I crying wolf, or barking like a dog?

[...]

Below was sent to me by a member of this board....

http://cawlocal2245.ca/cawlocal2245/Exe ... 2008-1.pdf

St. Anthony Closure

Despite the local’s best efforts to lobby municipal, regional and National representatives the company was successful in obtaining Transport Canada approval to close St. Anthony FSS effective November of 2008. Navcanada has contacted the affected members and we are working with the company to develop a HR plan to deal with the employees who now have no station.

So in the last couple years:

Sudbury Tower to FSS,
Abbottsford and Prince George lose co-located FSS
Dawson Creek loses on site FSS (remoted to Peace River)
Terminal service reductions out of Winnipeg Center
and now St. Anthony.

The equipment upgrades are nice, but it'd be nice if the staffing of operational units wasn't being reduced at every opportunity.

If we can`t speak up for ourselves...AND support all the niches in this business...what good are we as an aviation community??? Let us begin the "exchange of thoughts"....shall we? I CAN`T WAIT to hear from ALL the Rockstars in suits

[lilfssister]

While I feel bad for my brethren (and/or sistren?) in YAY who may want to stay there: they had 4,700 movements in 2006.

The arguments that apply in your thread on Sudbury apply here. Five (I think) salaries and facility maintenance. A staff vehicle and its maintenance to drive to/from the airport. I think they also have company housing maintained at company cost. Only the extenuating circumstance of a medical facility there has kept it open this long. Best guess is one or two of the staff will relocate to wherever the RAAS will be operated from (YDF?). Looking at the union seniority list one is likely to be eligible for retirement without penalty. Again, would be great if we could keep everything open, but it ain't gonna happen.

This one was also on that well hidden list of studies on Navcanada's website.

[Bushav8er]

In that vein, here is a link, kind of hidden too, to a survey re: Services at Ontario airports -

Windsor Toronto Montreal Airspace and Services Review
Survey results will be used for analysis of needs, issues and concerns of the aviation community. Results will be utilized in airspace planning and services review.

http://www.navcanada.ca/ultimatesurvey/ ... 808B64D998

Save our airports and ATC services! Lets NOT follow our American friends who are losing an airport a week; we haven't that many to start with.

(Funny, front and centre of the NavCan site is "we're hiring!")

[tesox2]

they had 4,700 movements in 2006.

I pull out of my driveway more than that in a month!

Its sad, but ultimately a business decision that makes sense...

[lilfssister]

Birdy, I mentioned on page 5 of your Sudbury thread that St. Anthony was probably going to close this year.

[lilfssister]

SOME people think they are hard to find.

[sigmet77]

The website could use a good re-vamp. I would really like to see a big button that stands out for all things related to flight planning.

[1000 HP]

Kinda like the "Staples" button?

[Hedley]

Let me get this straight: NavCan's business plan
is to simply cut services to pilots until the expenses
equals income.

What happened when Air Canada went bankrupt
and bailed on approx $100 million? Did a lot of
pilot services get cut after that?

Not sure why an FSS is being shut down because
Bobby Milton wants to re-issue his stock options.

[sigmet77]

What I am saying corporal jerk is that since that is the area most visited why not make it stand out more? Who peed in your cornflakes this morning?

[small penguin]

Like any government site... information can be hard to find.

[lilfssister]

Navcanada is not part of the government.

[lilfssister]

(Funny, front and centre of the NavCan site is "we're hiring!")

Don't know what the numbers are for ATC but about 10-12% of FSS have 30+ years on the job. The staff in St. Anthony represents about .5% of FSS employees. So yes, we do need people.

[Hedley]

Navcanada is not part of the government

Heh. I suppose if you looked really hard, you might be able
to find someone that accepted that rhetoric at face value.

NavCan used to be part of the gov't, which has an enormous
effect on corporate culture. NavCan was supposedly carved
off by the gov't. NavCan is given a monopoly by the gov't. If
NavCan has any problems operating now or in the future, rest
assured that the gov't will immediately step in and change what
needs to be changed so that the gov't's monopolistic creation
(NavCan) can function the way the gov't wants it to.

Yeah, there's no difference between NavCan and any
other corporation

Meanwhile, we're still paying for services via the fuel
excise tax, and all of that money goes to general revenue,
which means that the gov't lied to us all. But the gov't gets
to make NavCan the bad guy in all this because it makes
NavCan collect the double taxation for services.

Now, we're supposed to believe that NavCan isn't part
of the gov't?!

[...]

hmmmm....seems "Hedley" and Ms. lilfssister are on the right path in regards to the theme of this thread...anyone else wanting to discuss the Navcanada website cosmetics can start their own thread...if you don't know how there's a button clearly marked at the top and bottom of each page. (The irony of this must be somewhat funny)

Before I turn this up a notch...in hopes others will contribute to this topic on this disturbing trend of the Navcanada suits 'slash and burn'...I just heard that YYZ will be on the block to becoming a Unicom.

Can anyone confirm this?


On a serious note...I think I'm the only one taking crazy pills because the writing seems to be on the wall for the future of Navcanada professionals...and it's customers. Fee's go up...service goes down. Hedley said it best and I can't add to it anymore than how he put it.

Does ANYONE give a shyte? or are you all too lazy to care until it becomes YOUR problem and this slash and burn monster has grown SO large...where no one can stop the Navcanada suits corporate insatiable appetite to gobble up any small FSS or ATC service in exchange for profits by implementing a method of cost cutting methods that most well trained monkeys can do...rather than the current CEO's present salary and his 1,000,000 boneass for doing what a primate could do for a few bananas and a pat on the head.

Talk to me people...

[small penguin]

I live in a different world it seems than most of the AvCanada populace. So long as I have a UNICOM... or heck not even, Im happy.

Yes Im peeved that NavCan increases fees. First we have landing fees, then fuel fees, now we have those 10 dollar a day for using an Intl Aprt fees.. With all that, Im not going to any of those airports anymore unless I really need to. So that they loose a few services, I dont care.

But so long as I have a runway and some guy working a 100LL fuel pump on the ground, Im happy.

But again, Im in a different world than you folks.

[cruisecontrol]

No, not crying wolf. It's true Nav Canada is pretty useless and the air navigation system here should NEVER have been privatized!

For a NOT for profit company they sure like their cut backs, and where do you think that money goes? Back into the hands of certain major operators (one in particular) and as a bonus to management as a reward for all the money they're saving.

This is a case where a private organization should be running itself more like the government, focusing on providing better service to ALL customers regardless of cost. But instead they're only looking at the bottom line. This is why YMM is not towered yet, why certain FIC projects have been canceled, why CYSB is switching to FSS, with more closures becoming possible, and why staffing is suffering...

They can flaunt and the technological upgrades they want, and talk about how they're making the system better but in the end it's a matter of people serving people and the current trend is not proving this is not the case.

[Mach1]

Its sad, but ultimately a business decision that makes sense...

Hmmm… time to play devil’s advocate here so nothing personal but, does it make sense. I am not at all familiar with this particular closure but the point about disappearing FSS stations is a valid one. What is NavCanada’s business? It to provide Air Navigation Services in a SAFE and efficient matter. I have watched the WX forecasting go right down the tubes over the last 20 years as human observers were replaced by auto stations that don’t even make good paper weights. You can’t talk to the guy with the knowledge of local phenomenon anymore. My point here being, what is the cost of safety? At what point does the system become so paired down under the battle cry of money does safety suffer? As the system becomes more and more automated and remote, you lose the human element of the service.

I am not going to pretend to have the answers, but I do believe that overall safety of the Air Navigation system has degraded do to business decisions that make sense… until you have an accident somewhere. I also believe that how much it has degraded and what impact that has had is not being objectively studied by anyone. After all, NavCanada does have a “business” agenda and is not a neutral party in these studies.

[lilfssister]

In that vein, here is a link, kind of hidden too, to a survey re: Services at Ontario airports -

Windsor Toronto Montreal Airspace and Services Review
Survey results will be used for analysis of needs, issues and concerns of the aviation community. Results will be utilized in airspace planning and services review.

http://www.navcanada.ca/ultimatesurvey/ ... 808B64D998

Save our airports and ATC services! Lets NOT follow our American friends who are losing an airport a week; we haven't that many to start with.

(Funny, front and centre of the NavCan site is "we're hiring!")

Here are the terms of reference for the study related to this survey:

http://www.navcanada.ca/ContentDefiniti ... sor_en.pdf

[lilfssister]

Here's all the ones underway now:

http://www.navcanada.ca/NavCanada.asp?Language=en&Content=ContentDefinitionFiles\Services\ANSPrograms\LevelOfService\TOR_ActiveReviews\default.xml

Here's the completed ones:

http://www.navcanada.ca/NavCanada.asp?Language=en&Content=ContentDefinitionFiles\Services\ANSPrograms\LevelOfService\CompletedStudies\default.xml


Here's where you send your feedback:

http://www.navcanada.ca/NavCanada.asp?Language=en&Content=ContentDefinitionFiles\Services\ANSPrograms\LevelOfService\Feedback\default.xml

[FamilyGuy]

Some of you think we've got a problem with our system now? How about you go and experience those systems around the world who operate in the bottom decile for safety, or the bottom quartile for technology platforms?

For the last time, comparing other shitty services in an effort to prop up OUR services REALLY isn't a very intelligent argument.

NAV wants to be the best ANUS in the world - but only just - no point in being alot better than the worst out there????

Take head and shake until sane......

[Hedley]

shut down an FSS site that saw 13 movements per day on average

Ah, statistics. Gotta love 'em. They can be so easily manipulated to
say whatever you want them to.

You know what my favorite statistic is? A man with his head in the
stove, and his feet in the freezer is on average comfortable.

That's the sort of manipulative bafflegab we expect from the
government.

For example, at this airport it's possible that there are periods of
inactivity, then bursts of traffic, when the FSS is very useful.

If you're having trouble understanding that, try this:

Imagine if a bunch of moronic gov't accountants decided that
on average a building needed less than ONE phone line.

However the nature of the phone line usage was long periods
of inactivity, when no one called, and bursts of activity, when
everybody called, and everyone got a busy signal because some
bean counter somewhere decided that on average the
building needed less than ONE phone line

This kind of statistical manipulation and misinformation is really
quite insulting.

[lilfssister]

If you take a few minutes to actually read the completed study for St. Anthony, there are graphs of hourly movements on page 14 and 15.

On page 7 and 8 you will find the services provided now and the services that will be provided in the future.

[Woxof38]

If you want to add another Level of Service happening this year: Lloydminster FSS in Alberta will be getting one of the next generation AWOS from Nav Canada. They are called NCAWOS. I think YLL is the 4th out of around 85 of these NCAWOS that will be installed over the next few years. As a result we will become a part time FSS effective November or January. Our staff will be reduced by one. I'm trying to think what the weather observing will be like at night for Saskatchewan and Alberta? My theory is as more of these NCAWOS are installed there will be no more contract weather stations (manned) and probably more Level of Service closures for FSS.

[lilfssister]

I have to agree with you on the AWOS thing. Are any of these new NC models installed anywhere yet?