Low level flying

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small penguin
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Low level flying

Post by small penguin »

Its my understanding that flying should be done 1000 feet above populated areas. And in unpopulated areas, 500 feet away from any form of populace. I've also been told that during any part of flight, you should always be able to land safely (ie dont fly inverted at 10 feet; you'll never flip and land if you get an engine failure).

I understand "populated areas" to be any blobs of yellow on a VNC. So those little circles depicting towns, or the shapes for larger cities. To me that means stay 1000agl above those, but anything other than those, stay 500ft AWAY (not necessarily 500agl). So to this, if Im skimming treetops (more or less, say 100-200ft) or flying in valleys, is any of this considered illegal or against CARs?
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just curious
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Re: Low level flying

Post by just curious »

If you can be considered a hazard to persons or properties on the ground, then, although hard to enforce, it is against those pesky rules. If there are pax on your machine, then it can be considered reckless flying.

Not withstanding the above, in a single engine piston machine, it isn't the best way to reach your biblical 4 score and 7 year life span. Wires, towers, snags (gray, dead treetops) and higher bird activity make for a higher hazard level.
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AuxBatOn
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Re: Low level flying

Post by AuxBatOn »

small penguin wrote:Its my understanding that flying should be done 1000 feet above populated areas. And in unpopulated areas, 500 feet away from any form of populace. I've also been told that during any part of flight, you should always be able to land safely (ie dont fly inverted at 10 feet; you'll never flip and land if you get an engine failure).

I understand "populated areas" to be any blobs of yellow on a VNC. So those little circles depicting towns, or the shapes for larger cities. To me that means stay 1000agl above those, but anything other than those, stay 500ft AWAY (not necessarily 500agl). So to this, if Im skimming treetops (more or less, say 100-200ft) or flying in valleys, is any of this considered illegal or against CARs?
Lots of those "towns" don't really exists. I would climb for anything that really exists (ie: I can see more than 4 houses) Other than that, I stay down low.
just curious wrote:If you can be considered a hazard to persons or properties on the ground, then, although hard to enforce, it is against those pesky rules. If there are pax on your machine, then it can be considered reckless flying.

Not withstanding the above, in a single engine piston machine, it isn't the best way to reach your biblical 4 score and 7 year life span. Wires, towers, snags (gray, dead treetops) and higher bird activity make for a higher hazard level.
That's why good planning is required. Low level flying isn't dangerous. Heck, we fly at 250' AGL and 420 Kts ground speed every day. What is dangerous is the lack of planning and studying before the flight. A good look out AHEAD of the aircraft is also essential. Call every tower you see/should see. Stick to your planned route unless you are willing to climb a little bit to give you more brain cells.

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Chuck Ellsworth
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Re: Low level flying

Post by Chuck Ellsworth »

I get real nervous when I see or hear low time pilots discussing low flying.
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After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
small penguin
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Re: Low level flying

Post by small penguin »

Whenever I see a house, or .. lately huts on the frozen lakes, I usually dodge them. Of course flying low has extra ... obstacles...

AuxBatOn, do you do pipelining or something similar?
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_dwj_
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Re: Low level flying

Post by _dwj_ »

The CARs say something like "500 feet from any person, structure or vessel", but generally it is a good idea to stay at least 500 feet above the ground as there will always be power lines, towers and similar things that can be hard to see until it's too late (unless you are up in the middle of nowhere). Also when you're very close to the ground you obviously have less margin for error.

Unless you're a commercial pilot and your job specifically involves low flying, it's generally best to avoid flying below 500 feet. And if you have any doubts, just take a look at the accident reports and you'll see quite a few involving low flying.
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Chuck Ellsworth
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Re: Low level flying

Post by Chuck Ellsworth »

I get real nervous when I see or hear low time pilots discussing low flying.
Low flying and inexperience quite often is just an accident going somewhere to happen.
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Re: Low level flying

Post by Anti-Ice »

I believe if you are operating commercially then the 703/704/705 regs also dictate how low you can go.
My memory is suggesting 300 feet agl for 703?
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AuxBatOn
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Re: Low level flying

Post by AuxBatOn »

. . wrote:
I get real nervous when I see or hear low time pilots discussing low flying.
Low flying and inexperience quite often is just an accident going somewhere to happen.
I wouldn't say inexperience (as in low time) so much, but without proper training, yes, it's an accident waiting to happen.
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Chuck Ellsworth
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Re: Low level flying

Post by Chuck Ellsworth »

I wouldn't say inexperience (as in low time) so much, but without proper training, yes, it's an accident waiting to happen.
Where does a PPL get proper training for low flying?

That is what I was referring to..as ..inexperience.
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The most difficult thing about flying is knowing when to say no.

After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
BushCaddy
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Re: Low level flying

Post by BushCaddy »

I used to work for TC Enforcement, and a lot of our cases dealt with Low Level Flying.
The assumption that as long as you are greater than 500' AGL, you'll be legal, is not always true. (even if there is no yellow on the map)
There is no definition in the CARS as to what a "built up area" is, therefore if TC can argue that those 4 houses you flew over at 500' constituted a "built up area", then you are in violation.
Having said that, it is also VERY hard to prove an altitude with eyewitness accounts.
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Re: Low level flying

Post by AuxBatOn »

BushCaddy wrote:I used to work for TC Enforcement, and a lot of our cases dealt with Low Level Flying.
The assumption that as long as you are greater than 500' AGL, you'll be legal, is not always true. (even if there is no yellow on the map)
There is no definition in the CARS as to what a "built up area" is, therefore if TC can argue that those 4 houses you flew over at 500' constituted a "built up area", then you are in violation.
Having said that, it is also VERY hard to prove an altitude with eyewitness accounts.
TC has nothing to do with me, so I could not care less of what they think ;)

.: Seen!

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TG
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Re: Low level flying

Post by TG »

small penguin wrote:AuxBatOn, do you do pipelining or something similar?
250' AGL and 420 Kts ground speed doesn't really look like pipelining in a 172.
Unless they are doing so now with those.

http://www.airforce.forces.gc.ca/site/e ... ault_e.asp

:mrgreen:
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Chuck Ellsworth
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Re: Low level flying

Post by Chuck Ellsworth »

TC has nothing to do with me, so I could not care less of what they think
Actually I am going to be flying in Canada again soon, will be picking up the new Husky in a few weeks.

As far as TC goes I very much doubt that I will have any reason to ever communicate on any level with them.

It would be highly unlikely that any TC inspector in the Pacific Region would be dumb enough to give me any hassel unless they have a wish to be on the receiving end of another harassement charge.

But for sure you are correct AuxBatOn, I couldn't care less what they think. :mrgreen:
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The most difficult thing about flying is knowing when to say no.

After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
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Re: Low level flying

Post by husky »

I was recently buzzed by a West Coast Air beaver while walking along a dyke. He came over roughly 30' agl, and 150' down the dyke. No doubt about it, what he did was illegal. I was tempted to get the reg and report it, but what would it accomplish? Aviation will always attract a healthy percentage of idiots...
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Liquid Charlie
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Re: Low level flying

Post by Liquid Charlie »

Damn -- he was 25 feet too high -- in reality he was actually using his head -- the fact he didn't fly directly over you shows he was thinking -- most young aviators and a few older ones enjoy the thrill once in a while -- :mrgreen: -- but like anything else -- certainly a right and a wrong way to do it.

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Re: Low level flying

Post by Hedley »

I'm not sure anybody cares, but I (legally) "low fly"
all the time. Upright, inverted, knife edge, etc. It's
what I get paid to do.

Aerobatics aside, there is one thing that you must
always do before you perform any low flying, and
that is a recon. You must know for certain that
there are NO WIRES or other obstructions along
your route, or your ingress or egress path.

You don't just "low fly" on the spur of the moment -
that's very high risk behaviour.
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Wilbur
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Re: Low level flying

Post by Wilbur »

SP - why are you asking these questions about low flying? If you are intending on low flying, the fact you are having to ask questions about it here should be a red flag that you shouldn't be doing it. The low altitude record has already been set, tied by many, and can't be broken.
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xsbank
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Re: Low level flying

Post by xsbank »

Unless you are low-flying as part of your job and have been properly checked out (pipeline, survey, fire suppression etc.) you have no place doing it. Low flying for the thrill of it is as foolhardy and asinine as any of the other activities that raise your chances of getting killed, hurting someone else in the air or on the ground or damaging somebody's property.

Don't do it. "Professional Pilot"....what?
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lostinthebattle
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Re: Low level flying

Post by lostinthebattle »

husky wrote:I was recently buzzed by a West Coast Air beaver while walking along a dyke. He came over roughly 30' agl, and 150' down the dyke. No doubt about it, what he did was illegal. I was tempted to get the reg and report it, but what would it accomplish? Aviation will always attract a healthy percentage of idiots...

I wish I was there. That's music to my ears. Oh..and please don't rat out other pilots we get enough BS from the public.
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